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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Default Marston today: feminism, progressiveness, and values

    A discussion over on the DC comics subforum lead to the following exchange about Marston, and I thought it would be better to continue it here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    It'd still be progressive by the standards of today, dude. Marston was for full blown equality and the uprising of women, which we still aren't at today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    He was also in a poly relationship with his wife and girlfriend and heavily into S&M before S&M was even a thing, I think (Im not really up on my weird fetish history).

    Dude was way ahead of the social-sexual curve, so much so that he's still ahead of it today.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    A lot of his ideas still hold up well:
    - Mother figure is the main paternal figure of the narrative, not the father. DC still cannot wrap their heads around this consistently.
    - Diana got her powers through Amazon training, she became one of the most powerful individuals on the planet due to her own efforts and not through handouts from the goddesses or (worse) due to a lineage with Zeus. it fits in with Marston's "any woman can be a Wonder Woman" philosophy, and the other Amazons were all varying degrees of super powered in ways subsequent versions weren't.
    - Etta Candy, while the punchline of several fat jokes, was also a totally confident plus sized woman who was comfortable in her own skin, brave, loyal and totally boy crazy with her own collection of suitors. She wasn't even drawn to be grotesque the way you'd think a so called caricature would be, she was what TV tropes would describe as a Big Beautiful Woman. It's a shame the only takes than both modernize her and truly capture the appealing essence of the character are Elseworlds and not any of the modern canon versions, most of whom are Etta In Name Only.
    - Communities of women empowering and aiding each other: the Amazons and the Holliday Girls
    - Diana was clearly meant to be bi-sexual even though he couldn't say it, and DC didn't manage to confirm it until 2016.
    - The Cheetah as a metaphor for the way society pits women against each other over petty things like beauty, wealth and fame, and Diana doesn't engage Priscilla on that level but instead tried to help her.
    - Subverting the Amazon myth is one of the big ones, as is choosing Aphrodite as the primary patron. The one who was stereotyped as the vain ditzy beauty queen/trophy wife/Olympus "village bycicle", etc. was actually extremely powerful and benevolent while still embodying feminine qualities. Girls are powerful too and don't have to adopt "masculine" qualities to be so. This is lost somewhat by taking focus away from her in later versions.

    His most dated ideas are the typical ones seen in that period: the racism and having Diana fall in love at first sight with Steve and having that be her motivation, and both are easy to leave in the past where they belong while retaining the rest of it.
    Now, having read Sensation Comics #1–12, and Wonder Woman #1 and #2 as part of the Wonder Woman reread, I feel like I want to put a bit more nuance onto things.

    I don't read Marston's feminism about equality per se. Rather, it is patriarchy turned upside down, where women should be the leaders, which also ties into his views on gender essentialism. His public interest in BDSM feels rather modern, but the modern thing is more being (reasonably) public about it, not the actual interest.

    I like SiegePerilous02's list, but I think it leaves out a lot. The racism is a big one, but there is also quite a bit of classism and gender essentialism.

    The classism is most apparent in Sensation Comics #8. While Diana helps the Bullfinch girls to organise, what the story spends the most time and effort on is Diana's attempt to better Gloria Bullfinch and make her more moral and benevolent. To Marston, I believe Gloria Bullfinch had already proved her superior ability to lead, she only needed to learn how to lead with love. Questions about leadership among the employees or how Gloria Bullfinch came to her position are left aside.

    Meanwhile, the gender essentialism permeates everything. Diana envies the life of Diana White as a wife and mother, while Mrs White is stuck with a proven abusive husband. The Holliday girls are selected based on being the "prettiest and strongest". There are frequent references to Diana acting as a "woman" when she checks out fashion, her "female vanity" prevents her from damaging her eye lashes, and so on. Now, I have nothing against Diana having an interest in clothes or fashion, it is the framing of that interest that makes it a problem.

    In a way, a lot of what makes Marston appear progressive in SiegePerilous02's list is due to the gender essentialism, which today reads as a rather dated construct.

    The trans narrative is also worth a few words. To be fair, this is something where the real discussion came far after Marston, so I'd be careful reading too much into it. So far, Wonder Woman has encountered two cross-dressing villains: Doctor Poison (Princess Maru) and Agent X (Colonel Togo Ku). Their presentation is not too bad (as far as I can tell), but both are villains and both are Japanese, who are the main target of prejudice and racism in early Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by kjn; 06-09-2019 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Clarity
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #2
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    In some ways, Marston's reputation does kind of hurt Diana. In many iterations of Diana and the Amazons you get the feeling the writing is more a reaction to Marston himself than any continuation of what succeeding writers have actually done.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In some ways, Marston's reputation does kind of hurt Diana. In many iterations of Diana and the Amazons you get the feeling the writing is more a reaction to Marston himself than any continuation of what succeeding writers have actually done.
    Not sure I agree with that. The only writer that I can think of in modern times (from Pérez forward) that has tried to engage with Marston and his run is really Morrison, and that was mostly setting up Marston as a straw man. It's true that there has been very little continuation between writers (which I've read has been due to demands from DC editorial), but neither has there been any attempt to really engage with Marston's concepts or his feminism.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Not sure I agree with that. The only writer that I can think of in modern times (from Pérez forward) that has tried to engage with Marston and his run is really Morrison, and that was mostly setting up Marston as a straw man. It's true that there has been very little continuation between writers (which I've read has been due to demands from DC editorial), but neither has there been any attempt to really engage with Marston's concepts or his feminism.
    I would say Azzarello was as well given his take on the Amazons.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    My thought was that Marston WAS advocating equality, but doing so in a round about way. He was showing HOW women could be equal and what a society of women could look like.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I would say Azzarello was as well given his take on the Amazons.
    Azzarello's Amazons are so simplistic I don't think they are in any way a response to Marston.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    My thought was that Marston WAS advocating equality, but doing so in a round about way. He was showing HOW women could be equal and what a society of women could look like.
    That's not really the impression I get from Marston after having read Tim Hanley's book Wonder Woman Unbound; I understand that Jill Lepore's The Secret History of Wonder Woman goes into even greater depth on Marston's life and ideas. Here is a quote from Hanley's book:

    Marston claimed that men were more likely to be dominant, while women were more likely to excel at inducement and submission, though they were by no means submissive. Women were more loving and selfless and thus more willing to happily give of themselves to others, but they were also far better suited to inspire this sort of behavior in others. Because of this, Marston contended that “women, as a sex, are many times better equipped to assume emotional leadership than are males.” Women’s superior ability to rule was biological, and, Marston wrote, “there isn’t love enough in the male organism to run this planet peacefully. Woman’s body contains twice as many love generating organs and endocrine mechanisms as the male.” The rule of dominant men led society to violence and strife, and Marston stated that “only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self in human relationships can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society.” Female rule was humanity’s best chance for this peace.
    Hanley goes into a bit more about the psychological and sexual implications on Marston's beliefs (especially in relation to his interest in BDSM), but what struck me was the gender essentialism and how it relates to how especially Diana is presented in the comics. To Marston, Wonder Woman's gender is central to how he perceives and presents her, and it is often done as the omniscient narrator or her own voice. Compare that with the movie, where Diana's gender is something imposed on her from the outside, and which she constantly chafes against.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I like SiegePerilous02's list, but I think it leaves out a lot. The racism is a big one, but there is also quite a bit of classism and gender essentialism.

    In a way, a lot of what makes Marston appear progressive in SiegePerilous02's list is due to the gender essentialism, which today doesn't reads as a rather dated construct.
    Yes, the racism is the first thing that popped into my mind because it's usually (unfortunately) hard to forget, but I agree with your additions to the list. The gender essentialism (which isn't a term I was familiar with, but your break downs are easy to recall from my readings and get what you're going for) is another aspect of Marston that is best left in the past.

  8. #8
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I would say Azzarello was as well given his take on the Amazons.
    So, is mentioning Azzarello's amazons like the Godwin's Law of this forum?
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    So, is mentioning Azzarello's amazons like the Godwin's Law of this forum?
    That requires a comparison to Azzarello's Amazons.

    (As the length of a debate on Usenet News grows, the risk of one side being compared to Hitler approaches unity. The corollary is that once that has happened, no further discussion is possible. The idea that the person doing the comparison automatically has lost the debate is, I believe, a later addition and not really applicable in all cases, since some people on Usenet—like on other places—really were Nazis.)
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    That requires a comparison to Azzarello's Amazons.

    (As the length of a debate on Usenet News grows, the risk of one side being compared to Hitler approaches unity. The corollary is that once that has happened, no further discussion is possible. The idea that the person doing the comparison automatically has lost the debate is, I believe, a later addition and not really applicable in all cases, since some people on Usenet—like on other places—really were Nazis.)
    By saying its like Godwin's Law, I'm thinking more about the inevitability that someone is going to make a comment regarding Azzarello's Amazons than making comparisons.
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    By saying its like Godwin's Law, I'm thinking more about the inevitability that someone is going to make a comment regarding Azzarello's Amazons than making comparisons.
    That's more like Jo Walton's (I think) observation over on rec.arts.sf.written, that as a thread grows in length, the likelihood that it would concern itself with two–three topics would approach unity. I'm fairly sure one of those topics was Robert Heinlein. But finding a somewhat authorative version of that is beyond me.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #12
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I can understand how gender essentialism is an issue in his stories. He believed there were fundamental psychological differences between women and men (qualitative differences) and this wasn't simply a feature, it was the essence of his vision for Themyscira, that the reason why their society was so blessed was because they were all women living apart from men. I think writers should embrace the idea that the Amazons believe in gender essentialism. This should be shown as an incorrect ideology. This should be one of the reasons why they themselves would learn once they come back to Man's World through Diana. But I also don't think Themyscira should be an Utopia, it should simply show a whole different society with a unique culture and some things from which we could learn. And Gender should be at least one of the two main themes that Wonder Woman comics of today explore.

    However I don't understand how classism is a problem inherent to Marston's stories. I would like someone to explain a little more how that connection exists.
    Last edited by Alpha; 12-22-2020 at 04:08 AM.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I can understand how gender essentialism is an issue in his stories. He believed there were fundamental psychological differences between women and men (qualitative differences) and this wasn't simply a feature, it was the essence of his vision for Themyscira, that the reason why their society was so blessed was because they were all women living apart from men. I think writers should embrace the idea that the Amazons believe in gender essentialism. This should be shown as an incorrect ideology. This should be one of the reasons why they themselves would learn once they come back to Man's World through Diana. Bur I also don't think Themyscira should be an Utopia, it should simply show a whole different society with a unique culture with some things from which we could learn some things. And Gender should be at least one of the two main themes that Wonder Woman comics explore today.
    In other words, you want the Amazons to be Wrong.

    Not incorrect or mistaken about something, but that one of the core elements in their construction should be deliberately set out to be Wrong. Don't you see the narrative problem with that, given that it sets up Wonder Woman's core conflict to be with Themyscira rather than with Man's World?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    However I don't understand how classicism is a problems inherent to Marston's stories. How would like someone to explain a little more how that connection.
    That really depends on what stories you tell, but it shows how Marston really was more about putting women on top of the existing social structures rather than reforming those same social structures.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    In other words, you want the Amazons to be Wrong.

    Not incorrect or mistaken about something, but that one of the core elements in their construction should be deliberately set out to be Wrong. Don't you see the narrative problem with that, given that it sets up Wonder Woman's core conflict to be with Themyscira rather than with Man's World?
    Both of them can be wrong to some degree. The Jenkins movie and the Perez run had the Amazons treated as wrong in some ways and right in others. Frankly, as long as we don't get anything comparable to Flashpoint or the New 52, I think we're okay.


    That really depends on what stories you tell, but it shows how Marston really was more about putting women on top of the existing social structures rather than reforming those same social structures.
    Didn't the story you mentioned end the woman in charge changing the way office system worked?

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Both of them can be wrong to some degree. The Jenkins movie and the Perez run had the Amazons treated as wrong in some ways and right in others. Frankly, as long as we don't get anything comparable to Flashpoint or the New 52, I think we're okay.
    Jenkins and Pérez had the Amazons be mistaken or incorrect about things, but certainly didn't set up neon flash signs over the Amazons with "They are wrong about this thing that lies at the core of their construction".

    From a narrative standpoint, there is also an issue with planning to put in lessons Themyscira is to learn from the start, because it messes with what Diana is to do as a superhero. Rather than changing Man's World to something better, it becomes about changing Themyscira. It turns Wonder Woman inside out as a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Didn't the story you mentioned end the woman in charge changing the way office system worked?
    Better working conditions, yes. But Gloria Bullfinch remained in charge, and affirmed as the boss.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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