X-Men Monday #15

[Silver Fang]

It's better not to think to much about Emma portrayal regarding Scott in NXM, because Morrison can't even claim that it's an old story to justify Emma raping Scott, because the alteration of the patient's consent by the terapist's power over him/her is a very old concept, Scott even insisted that he was doing the terapy to save his marriage, and she admited to be acrewing with him to get back on Jean (until she fell for him)
And last week's UXM has a very good portrayal of a lot of the Scemma caracterization, she says that if he was alive she would had had him in her bed, he had broken up with her several months before dying, she essentially strips him of his agency, to make it easier to understand imagine the genders switched to show the more classic version of the concept, there were some writers who had them as a healthy couple but a lot of others didn't

I understand. I had this discussion on twitter. Someone brought up Creed being a good guy, and hating his character because of how disgusting he is. Another person agreed with them, then went on about the disgusting-ness of the pairing with Monet.

Myself & another fan argued that point by using Scemma as an example. The relationship started with her taking advantage of a broken man under guise of promised therapy to save his marriage, then starts screwing him in a plight to get over on his wife. Creed has done some screwed up crap, but he was good with Monet and never once did anything questionable to her. But Scemma, a relationship that started under VERY shady terms gets a lot of passes, with Emma being humanized in her feelings for a man she happened to fall for while taking advantage & using him to spite his wife.

Again with pairings, it brings up the gender double-standard. When it's women using, abusing, or taking advantage of men, it's a grey area or acceptable. When the gender gets reversed, you have numerous people raving, even if nothing bad was shown to be happening. There's a few exceptions. Scemma kinda started off being a prime example, but subverts it when Emma falls for him because then she's not the manipulator with the emotional detachment & power. When she falls for him, she becomes the sympathetic one where Scott more agency, and Emma was just love-sick and would accept him unconditionally & pines for him even when he dumped her. But again, had she been a man, she would never have gotten the chance to be painted as sympathetic, loving, and devoted at any point in that pairing.

[spirit2011]

I understand. I had this discussion on twitter. Someone brought up Creed being a good guy, and hating his character because of how disgusting he is. Another person agreed with them, then went on about the disgusting-ness of the pairing with Monet.

Myself & another fan argued that point by using Scemma as an example. The relationship started with her taking advantage of a broken man who she reaches out to under guise of promised therapy to save his marriage, then starts screwing him in a plight to get over on his wife. Creed has done some screwed up crap, but he was good with Monet and never once did anything questionable to her. But Scemma, a relationship that started under VERY shady terms gets a lot of passes, with Emma being humanized in her feelings for a man she happened to fall for while taking advantage or & using him to spite his wife.

Again with pairings, it brings up the gender double-standard. When it's women using, abusing, or taking advantage of men, it's a grey area or acceptable. When the gender gets reversed, you have numerous people ranting & raving, even if nothing bad was shown to be happening. There's a few exceptions, like Spuffy or even Scemma once she fell for him. But for the most part, these pairings tend to be one-sided in favor of women a lot of the time.

That isn't true at all. That is why women in refrigerators exists, the balance is much more on men beig the center.
And if the woman is the focus a fanboy will find a away to screw it over, like Morrison and Whedon did.

Maybe if Morrison or Whedon wrote Sabretooth and Monet. Or if Sabertooth was more sexy, used more sexy outfits
I can't understand why toxic relationships have so large fandoms

I saw that you answered it: because it mades the guy not be vulnerable and the woman being the one being all over him.

Just the same thing, but the men are on top. basically inverse sexism

[maxi_miceli]

I think it is perfectly normal like Jean and not like Jott. The relationship screwed over her very badly.

Scott never gave his support for Jean on new x-men when she was dealing with Phoenix. Unless everyone gonna agree it is out of character like the whole run.
But it happneed and it is all canon, that was even build by other writers

There are things people could claim he did wrong, that is not one of them, he was on a complete breakdown, it's actually quite questionable that his friends and family didn't sent him to an actual terapist with speciallization in trauma and ptsd, Marvel always has this issues when mixing their stories with realistic material, saying that Scott was bad to Jean for not helping her deal with the Phoenix (which she was ok with until NXM) while he wasn't even close to recovering from Apocalypse possesion (which also according the thr search for Cyclops tainted his very soul) is quite mad

I understand. I had this discussion on twitter. Someone brought up Creed being a good guy, and hating his character because of how disgusting he is. Another person agreed with them, then went on about the disgusting-ness of the pairing with Monet.

Myself & another fan argued that point by using Scemma as an example. The relationship started with her taking advantage of a broken man who she reaches out to under guise of promised therapy to save his marriage, then starts screwing him in a plight to get over on his wife. Creed has done some screwed up crap, but he was good with Monet and never once did anything questionable to her. But Scemma, a relationship that started under VERY shady terms gets a lot of passes, with Emma being humanized in her feelings for a man she happened to fall for while taking advantage or & using him to spite his wife.

Again with pairings, it brings up the gender double-standard. When it's women using, abusing, or taking advantage of men, it's a grey area or acceptable. When the gender gets reversed, you have numerous people ranting & raving, even if nothing bad was shown to be happening. There's a few exceptions, like Spuffy or even Scemma once she fell for him. But for the most part, these pairings tend to be one-sided in favor of women a lot of the time.

Marvel and comics in general has serious issues with their portrayal of rape and sexual abuse in general, a lot of times the writers don't even realize that what they are writing falls under those categories (which is quite worrying tbh) Ms Marvel IIRC had a story were the Avengers didn't stop her rapist (who was also her son that was forced into her) from kidnapping her, the whole thing was really messed up, I think they did address that later though

[TheCape]

That isn't true at all. That is why women in refrigerators exists, the balance is much more on men beig the center.
And if the woman is the focus a fanboy will find a away to screw it over, like Morrison and Whedon did.

Maybe if Morrison or Whedon wrote Sabretooth and Monet. Or if Sabertooth was more sexy, used more sexy outfits
I can't understand why toxic relationships have so large fandoms

Double standards exist in fiction for both women and men, dude, granted it happens more to women, i can't tell how many times saw people slut shaming MJ because she apparently was sexually active in college with other dudes beside Peter (when she wasn't in a relationship with him). But there is also many cases of women doing things to men that if the genders were reversed it would make people uncomfortable.

[JB]

The panel with Jean and Scott fighting together gave me goosebumps. I don't much care if they get back together or not, I'm just excited to see them together, period.

[spirit2011]

Double standards exist in fiction for both women and men, dude, granted it happens more to women, i can't tell how many times saw people slut shaming MJ because she apparently was sexually active in college with other dudes beside Peter (when she wasn't in a relationship with him). But there is also many cases of women doing things to men that if the genders were reversed it would make people uncomfortable.

People call Jean a slut, when she only had Scott.

I know these cases, but the problem in these cases still is sexism and toxic masculinity. Men always like sex, all the time and can't be abused stereotype

[Silver Fang]

That isn't true at all. That is why women in refrigerators exists, the balance is much more on men beig the center.
And if the woman is the focus a fanboy will find a away to screw it over, like Morrison and Whedon did. outfits

I still see things being more ne-sided on part of the women in the couples I do see.

• 1. Gambit x Rogue.
  We have him pining after her like a lost puppy, and being way more fixated on her than she was on him. We even have him around to be jealous while Rogue dates Logan of all people. And when Gambit leaves, Logan tries to go after him as if Gambit isn't justified to be pissed, and Rogue sweet-talking him that it's ok and gambit doesn't mean it. We had her starting something up with Torch & Deadpool, and abandoning him in the Arctic while shagging Magneto. I don't blame Gambit fans for wanting her away from him, and seeing the relationship as heavily uneven where she can do whatever she wants, with whomever, but he'll always been waiting in the wings.
• 2. Deadpool x Shiklah
  They started off fun, but things went sour fast. Deadpool had lots to juggle with caring for his family & daughter. Shiklah hated it so she starts cheating on him casually. One chapter when he comes home for a bit, Shiklah just had Werewolf by Night in her bed not long ago, but Shiklah makes Deadpool pamper her while he's home. We later see her wearing his shirt while he rubs her feet. AGAIN, her being the one that just had another man in her bed a few hours ago. When DP finds out about the affairs, he shoots WBY, and Shiklah kicks his ass and invites him back to bed where he says no thanks and sulks around New York. Then there's her handcuffing him to the bed so he can't leave, and he's gotta chew off his arm to get away form her. And she eventually exits stage left by marrying Dracula and leaving DP a note that she may call him for booty now and again. BUt again, she had the balls in that relationship & Wade rarely really contorted her. If she got crazy, he'd grovel at her feet and /or run off and avoid her for a few days. And all the men & women she slept with, Wade had NOBODY. He never got the side action she did. He didn't get with Rogue until she already left. Then JDW has openly stated Shiklah picked a bad husband & Wade deserves her abuse. Then stating Shiklah wants DP to be her trophy husband to be around when he's needed & dote on her when he's not. Let an official say that about a man and see if it goes over well.
• Creed x Mystique
  I ranted enough on that. Long story short. She's written as being his main love while he certainly is not her's, and she was willing to get him killed trying to bring back Destiny. Again if a man treated a woman the way she treats him, nobody would be cool with that pairing.
• I hear Spider-Man got TONS of crappy lovers that treated him like trash over the years. I don't follow him at all, but can believe it.
• Outside of Marvel we had Ross x Rachel, where the latter ran that relationship & was always treated as the poor victim. Meanwhile she could be as much of an unreasonable brat as she wanted & never be called on anything.
• Doug x Carrie & Ray x Debra needs no explanation for how one-sided those pairings were.Especially when Carrie literally beat the crap out of Doug by slamming his head into a window repeatedly, then throwing him down and kicking him. Again, that wouldn't be acceptable if the genders were flipped.

We have tons of case of women treating men in terrible ways that's acceptable or brushed off which wouldn't be the case if genders were flipped.

[maxi_miceli]

Double standards exist in fiction for both women and men, dude, granted it happens more to women, i can't tell how many times saw people slut shaming MJ because she apparently was sexually active in college with other dudes beside Peter (when she wasn't in a relationship with him). But there is also many cases of women doing things to men that if the genders were reversed it would make people uncomfortable.

The way it mostly works is that women are punished for their sexuality and men and punished for their lack therof, the way that mostly is shown regarding rape is that woman are accused of causing it by being sexual and it's their punishment and men are not believed about it being rape, just like people, likely even Morrison didn't believe Emma was raping him because a man is supposed to want it

[Xelossik]

I still see things being more ne-sided on part of the women in the couples I do see.

• 1. Gambit x Rogue.
  We have him pining after her like a lost puppy, and being way more fixated on her than she was on him. We even have him around to be jealous while Rogue dates Logan of all people. And when Gambit leaves, Logan tries to go after him as if Gambit isn't justified to be pissed, and Rogue sweet-talking him that it's ok and gambit doesn't mean it. We had her starting something up with Torch & Deadpool, and abandoning him in the Arctic while shagging Magneto. I don't blame Gambit fans for wanting her away from him, and seeing the relationship as heavily uneven where she can do whatever she wants, with whomever, but he'll always been waiting in the wings.
• 2. Deadpool x Shiklah
  They started off fun, but things went sour fast. Deadpool had lots to juggle with caring for his family & daughter. Shiklah hated it so she starts cheating on him casually. One chapter when he comes home for a bit, Shiklah just had Werewolf by Night in her bed not long ago, but Shiklah makes Deadpool pamper her while he's home. We later see her wearing his shirt while he rubs her feet. AGAIN, her being the one that just had another man in her bed a few hours ago. When DP finds out about the affairs, he shoots WBY, and Shiklah kicks his ass and invites him back to bed where he says no thanks and sulks around New York. Then there's her handcuffing him to the bed so he can't leave, and he's gotta chew off his arm to get away form her. And she eventually exits stage left by marrying Dracula and leaving DP a note that she may call him for booty now and again. BUt again, she had the balls in that relationship & Wade rarely really contorted her. If she got crazy, he'd grovel at her feet and /or run off and avoid her for a few days. And all the men & women she slept with, Wade had NOBODY. He never got the side action she did. He didn't get with Rogue until she already left. Then JDW has openly stated Shiklah picked a bad husband & Wade deserves her abuse. Then stating Shiklah wants DP to be her trophy husband to be around when he's needed & dote on her when he's not. Let an official say that about a man and see if it goes over well.
• Creed x Mystique
  I ranted enough on that. Long story short. She's written as being his main love while he certainly is not her's, and she was willing to get him killed trying to bring back Destiny. Again if a man treated a woman the way she treats him, nobody would be cool with that pairing.
• I hear Spider-Man got TONS of crappy lovers that treated him like trash over the years. I don't follow him at all, but can believe it.
• Outside of Marvel we had Ross x Rachel, where the latter ran that relationship & was always treated as the poor victim. Meanwhile she could be as much of an unreasonable brat as she wanted & never be called on anything.
• Doug x Carrie & Ray x Debra needs no explanation for how one-sided those pairings were.Especially when Carrie literally beat the crap out of Doug by slamming his head into a window repeatedly, then throwing him down and kicking him. Again, that wouldn't be acceptable if the genders were flipped.

We seem to be in a new age where horrible women and wussified men is the normal. We have tons of case of women treating men is terrible ways that would not be accepted if they were men doing it to women.

yet gambit slept with other women when he was in relationship with Rogue(his own solo series. ).
Rogue didn't.

[TheCape]

I still see things being more ne-sided on part of the women in the couples I do see.

• 1. Gambit x Rogue.
  We have him pining after her like a lost puppy, and being way more fixated on her than she was on him. We even have him around to be jealous while Rogue dates Logan of all people. And when Gambit leaves, Logan tries to go after him as if Gambit isn't justified to be pissed, and Rogue sweet-talking him that it's ok and gambit doesn't mean it. We had her starting something up with Torch & Deadpool, and abandoning him in the Arctic while shagging Magneto. I don't blame Gambit fans for wanting her away from him, and seeing the relationship as heavily uneven where she can do whatever she wants, with whomever, but he'll always been waiting in the wings.
• 2. Deadpool x Shiklah
  They started off fun, but things went sour fast. Deadpool had lots to juggle with caring for his family & daughter. Shiklah hated it so she starts cheating on him casually. One chapter when he comes home for a bit, Shiklah just had Werewolf by Night in her bed not long ago, but Shiklah makes Deadpool pamper her while he's home. We later see her wearing his shirt while he rubs her feet. AGAIN, her being the one that just had another man in her bed a few hours ago. When DP finds out about the affairs, he shoots WBY, and Shiklah kicks his ass and invites him back to bed where he says no thanks and sulks around New York. Then there's her handcuffing him to the bed so he can't leave, and he's gotta chew off his arm to get away form her. And she eventually exits stage left by marrying Dracula and leaving DP a note that she may call him for booty now and again. BUt again, she had the balls in that relationship & Wade rarely really contorted her. If she got crazy, he'd grovel at her feet and /or run off and avoid her for a few days. And all the men & women she slept with, Wade had NOBODY. He never got the side action she did. He didn't get with Rogue until she already left. Then JDW has openly stated Shiklah picked a bad husband & Wade deserves her abuse. Then stating Shiklah wants DP to be her trophy husband to be around when he's needed & dote on her when he's not. Let an official say that about a man and see if it goes over well.
• Creed x Mystique
  I ranted enough on that. Long story short. She's written as being his main love while he certainly is not her's, and she was willing to get him killed trying to bring back Destiny. Again if a man treated a woman the way she treats him, nobody would be cool with that pairing.
• I hear Spider-Man got TONS of crappy lovers that treated him like trash over the years. I don't follow him at all, but can believe it.
• Outside of Marvel we had Ross x Rachel, where the latter ran that relationship & was always treated as the poor victim. Meanwhile she could be as much of an unreasonable brat as she wanted & never be called on anything.
• Doug x Carrie & Ray x Debra needs no explanation for how one-sided those pairings were.Especially when Carrie literally beat the crap out of Doug by slamming his head into a window repeatedly, then throwing him down and kicking him. Again, that wouldn't be acceptable if the genders were flipped.

We seem to be in a new age where horrible women and wussified men is the normal.

In the case of Gambit is less of a double standard and more like the writers of the last decade prefer Rogue and many see Gambit as some lost relic of the 90s and some had even been vocal about hating him, although i don't remember any case of Logan and Rogue dating, they have always been platonic partners, except for that weird Milligan run when he was being mind controlled.

As for the rest, yeah.... is probably what you said.

[Silver Fang]

In the case of Gambit is less of a double standard and more like the writers of the last decade prefer Rogue and many see Gambit as some lost relic of the 90s and some had even been vocal about hating him, although i don't remember any case of Logan and Rogue dating, they have always been platonic partners, except for that weird Milligan run when he was being mind controlled.

As for the rest, yeah.... is probably what you said.

I was referring to this in case of Rogue x Logan.
Wolverine x Rogue.jpg
Wolverine getting any & every X-Woman he wants strikes again. Hence why I won't be surprised if he gets with Monet in HOX.

[TheCape]

The way it mostly works is that women are punished for their sexuality and men and punished for their lack therof, the way that mostly is shown regarding rape is that woman are accused of causing it by being sexual and it's their punishment and men are not believed about it being rape, just like people, likely even Morrison didn't believe Emma was raping him because a man is supposed to want it

True, there is also the body snatcher/shapeshifter trope, when a character has sex or kiss another while not being themselves, is incredibly how often see that one in comics, Nightwing, Wolverine, Aquaman, etc.

[Xelossik]

Wolverine x Rogue.jpg
Idk if he's mind-controlled here, but they were together.

mind control
both are mind controlled
that lasted 2 pages

[TheCape]

Wolverine x Rogue.jpg
Idk if he's mind-controlled here, but they were together.

Yeah, is that run, they weren't dating, it was just weird moment brought by some sort mind altering drug, but i don't remember the details. i can say with certainty that this doesn't really match Rogue and Logan personal story.

[spirit2011]

There are things people could claim he did wrong, that is not one of them, he was on a complete breakdown, it's actually quite questionable that his friends and family didn't sent him to an actual terapist with speciallization in trauma and ptsd, Marvel always has this issues when mixing their stories with realistic material, saying that Scott was bad to Jean for not helping her deal with the Phoenix (which she was ok with until NXM) while he wasn't even close to recovering from Apocalypse possesion (which also according the thr search for Cyclops tainted his very soul) is quite mad

No one read comics to see therapy sessions, that is why Scott and Emma sessions go for psychic sex and Jean bashing.
Jean and Xavier could solve it, but then Morrison story would never happen.
Maybe you are right here, Scott could barely get himself so he probably couldn't give help to jean. But i'm not saying that he should help her, more like say that he knows that she can deal with the Phoenix and she will do fine