Sales for the Batfamily in May 2019

[Sergard]

Wait, Rocafort is drawing #37? I thought he was only doing the annual.

The annual is drawn by Adam Pollina with a cover by Dexter Soy.
Rocafort draws #37 (including the cover).

[Swallowtail]

Why would it be a no brainer? As I said, the book is stable, has been for years, under Lobdell, who actually cares and nurtures the character. It has a base of readers, and we are happy with what we have got. And reviews are usually positive as well since Rebirth started. The book works. Red Hood is a C lister, he's popular, but across media, not comicwise, and he's not even that much of a popular character there: just the 'cool bad boy' guy for most of the people who know about him. Which us a pitty, but what is it.

it's not that stable. It's seen a 30% drop last May to this May. As you noted up the page it's not doing that well. And a new writer with a new perspective is a normal part of keeping comics fresh. Almost every writer who started a Rebirth book has told the story they wanted to tell and moved on or is preparing to move on. It's weird for this book to be the exception to that rule. You say 'well why don't they leave us alone? We like the book." But if I'm trying to sell comics I'm not marketing to you. If Lobdell was out in the morning, you'd still be picking up the book. It's the 10,000 people who used to read the book I need to market to. The prime example is Batgirl, which was doing similar high teens numbers with the odd Middleton variant related jump before a new writer came on.
But with a good new writer and a new take is doing consistently high twenties, low thirties even on months without a Middleton variant.

And change is a good thing. He's been on the book for an exceedingly long time. He's cycling back to his earliest stories which suggests he's reaching some sort of narrative full circle. So maybe now is a good time to say what he wants to say and get out. Change is scary is not a good reason not to do something, particularly in fiction.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

it's not that stable. It's seen a 30% drop last May to this May. As you noted up the page it's not doing that well. And a new writer with a new perspective is a normal part of keeping comics fresh. Almost every writer who started a Rebirth book has told the story they wanted to tell and moved on or is preparing to move on. It's weird for this book to be the exception to that rule. You say 'well why don't they leave us alone? We like the book." But if I'm trying to sell comics I'm not marketing to you. If Lobdell was out in the morning, you'd still be picking up the book. It's the 10,000 people who used to read the book I need to market to. The prime example is Batgirl, which was doing similar high teens numbers with the odd Middleton variant related jump before a new writer came on.
But with a good new writer and a new take is doing consistently high twenties, low thirties even on months without a Middleton variant.

And change is a good thing. He's been on the book for an exceedingly long time. He's cycling back to his earliest stories which suggests he's reaching some sort of narrative full circle. So maybe now is a good time to say what he wants to say and get out. Change is scary is not a good reason not to do something, particularly in fiction.

A book consistently selling 18~19 copies units each month is stable and is in the upper tier of the low end. Not bad a for a book that is pretty much non-existent in marketing terms, no con/panel appearances for any of its creative teams, no ads on other books, the most it gets is a random tweet when the month's issue comes out. There was a push when the book became Outlaw, and shockingly, it got a sales bump but that push was short lived and the book again fell into its regular numbers. Saying that Jason's fanbase is small is not entirely accurate since it was thanks to their insistence that Jason got a book in the first place and recently, the few merchandise that exists of him tends to sell out and he is one of the most requested characters every time a new animation project or videogame comes out.

Lobdell is not reaching any narrative full circle, he's just going back to plot points he didn't elaborate upon back in the day and fleshing them out (retconning the process the work done by Tynion he wasn't satisfied with), I'm just speculating here but revisiting those plot points also allows him to offer recaps of sorts about Jason's past adventures to those readers that only picked the book recently. Lastly, you're right, change isn't inherently bad in fiction and in fact, Lobdell changed a lot about Jason to rehabilitate his character after being mismanaged badly before Flashpoint. But DC has consistently botched any attempts of getting new writers in the book. Tynion actually tanked the series, when Lobdell left after issue 18 of the first volume (37,731 copies sold per Comichron), the book was consistently selling in the 30k range but during Tynion's run (36,630 for his first issue, 23,236 for his last one) those numbers keep decreasing. Lobdell return stopped that freefall but by then the damage was already done. But while Tynion only needed 11 months to drive away nearly a third of the readership, Lobdell has managed to keep the book from losing other 10k readers through five years. So, why fix what is not broken?

[Rac7d*]

He's one of those characters that's much more popular outside comics. His comic sales don't reflect he's popularity.

I just I dont think they have ever been good, so what is sustaining him , hes not feature in any other media with the exception of a recent YJ cameo
what does he got going for him?

[Zaresh]

it's not that stable. It's seen a 30% drop last May to this May. As you noted up the page it's not doing that well. And a new writer with a new perspective is a normal part of keeping comics fresh. Almost every writer who started a Rebirth book has told the story they wanted to tell and moved on or is preparing to move on. It's weird for this book to be the exception to that rule. You say 'well why don't they leave us alone? We like the book." But if I'm trying to sell comics I'm not marketing to you. If Lobdell was out in the morning, you'd still be picking up the book. It's the 10,000 people who used to read the book I need to market to. The prime example is Batgirl, which was doing similar high teens numbers with the odd Middleton variant related jump before a new writer came on.
But with a good new writer and a new take is doing consistently high twenties, low thirties even on months without a Middleton variant.

And change is a good thing. He's been on the book for an exceedingly long time. He's cycling back to his earliest stories which suggests he's reaching some sort of narrative full circle. So maybe now is a good time to say what he wants to say and get out. Change is scary is not a good reason not to do something, particularly in fiction.

If he leaves the book from one day to another without being able to make a satisfactory conclusion to the story he's writing, I can assure you, I won't get the book, not blindy because it features my fave character. There are few things that I hate more than that kind of move (events, for starters, because they mess with the storyline even worse). Also, Lobdell already went off the book for a period in N52 and sales didn't improve. I doubt the writer is really the problem.

I will always prefer what we are having, as humble as it may be, that, say, what has happened with Nightwing, or what has happened with the JL. Rotating teams every six or twelve issues is an awful idea for a long time running book, in my opinion. It works perfectly for transitional, filling arcs between long term teams, or for series of continued minis or stand-alone series. But for a regular book it doesn't. Not unless it's a book that actually tells stories by short arcs that are disconnected from each other (like 'Tec could be). But no, not for this kind of book. Unless you change the kind of book you want to publish. We could try a new writer for a short-medium stand alone arc and see what happens, though. But I doubt it's going to improve sales a lot past issue #3.

There are certain A listers I wouldn't give the book for all that it's worth in this world, because I don't trust them to get Jason. Or to care how to get him right. One of them is King (he seems to think that Jason is a joke. I liked most of his books, this isn't coming from hate, just for the record). Another one is Bendis (I still remember what he did with Moon Knight. Or Hawkeye. Yeah, here I'm still a bit resentful): they then to just blend the characters to their stories (with isn't a bad thing if the story is good, but if it's not, then, I drop it with no remorse). Or Morrison: I didn't like his first Jason, but to be honest, I could deal with him if he lets the character stay in character, in his current character, respecting it. He's a good writer and has very original ideas. Trying "new" talent in this book is letting the book for dead under 16 issues, because that's what most small books last when a team lead by a new writer lasts: small name in the book title, small name in the credits. It will be gone fast, and it won't give the book a high place sales wise either.

People I would try that are around DC nowadays. Ellis, or Taylor. Or Priest. Even old folks Dini (even if he doesn't really fit the mod for the character), because I trust some of them to write something good and respect the character. Tomasi didn't do badly in AK Genesis I think, but eh, I don't really tend to like how he approaches certain themes, so despite me liking him a lot in certain books, I'm indifferent to him returning to the character. Which is not going to happen at all, but I'm just rambling here. I want to see how Johns approach the character: I have high hopes.

30% in a year isn't much when you take into account that the series in already in it's 35 issue and a year ago the book was about to entering its last stage in a very long storyline that people were looking forward to. The book has been stable in the 18-20 mark for two years already, with ups and downs. But never under the 18k mark, which isn't bad even if it's not doing "well". It's "fine": lots of small books don't reach those figures. If you change the team and shift the mood, sure, new people will try the book, but most people will drop it anyways. We had a shift in the mood alone with #26, there was a short up in sales, then dropped again. Not enough people liked it enough to stay. It rarely works, actually. What happened with Spider-Man or Hulk recently isn't the usual.

Why risk it all in a sudden move? It's not worth the risk. Let the writer tell his story. If it drops below certain unusual mark, give the book a deadline of enough months to properly tie things and change the team. And see if it fares well. It it doesn't cancel the book: the IP doesn't catch enough interest for comic readers. And that's all.

[Godlike13]

Friends in right places. RHatO is a containment book. It does well enough for what it is, keeps Lobdell around, and is probably relatively easy to produce.

[Zaresh]

I just I dont think they have ever been good, so what is sustaining him , hes not feature in any other media with the exception of a recent YJ cameo
what does he got going for him?

He had an episode for him and Dick in the Titans show, and has a main role in the season 2 apparently. He was well received in that audience. YJ too, apparently will show him way more in a meaningful role than the cameo he has got in the first half of season 3. He was a character people asked strongly for as a DLC for the Injustice 2 game, and he also appeared in the LEGO villains game (in the last two lego games, actually). He's popular enough to have a ton of fanfics and fanart all around the net, probably more because the movie from 2010 and the Arkham Knight videogame (that did drew in readers, I think).

But he's still nowhere as popular as characters like Dick as Nightwing (much less as him as Robin) or even Deathstroke, for example (both still in a league above). Jason's fanbase is growing, but slowly. I only know of a few comicfans that are also Jason fans here, for example (which is why I love to write about him in our thread).

[Konja7]

The prime example is Batgirl, which was doing similar high teens numbers with the odd Middleton variant related jump before a new writer came on.
But with a good new writer and a new take is doing consistently high twenties, low thirties even on months without a Middleton variant.

In fact, Batgirl #33 with a different artist for the variant had sales of 24K in March 2019 (in February 2019 and April 2019, Batgirl #32 and Batgirl #34 with Middleton variants had 29K and 28K respectively).

As you said, the sales has a increase when the new team for Batgirl comic appear. Althought it is worrisome these sales are falling now.

[Zaresh]

In fact, without different artist for the variant, Batgirl had sales of 24K in March 2019 (in February 2019 and April 2019, Batgirl with Middleton variant had 29K and 28K respectively).

As you said, the sales has a increase when the new team for Batgirl comic appear. Althought it is worrisome these are falling.

It always happens that way as far as I've noticed. New teams draw in people, then, usually, they leave after a few issues.

[Rac7d*]

He had an episode for him and Dick in the Titans show, and has a main role in the season 2 apparently. He was well received in that audience. YJ too, apparently will show him way more in a meaningful role than the cameo he has got in the first half of season 3. He was a character people asked strongly for as a DLC for the Injustice 2 game, and he also appeared in the LEGO villains game (in the last two lego games, actually). He's popular enough to have a ton of fanfics and fanart all around the net, probably more because the movie from 2010 and the Arkham Knight videogame (that did drew in readers, I think).

But he's still nowhere as popular as characters like Dick as Nightwing (much less as him as Robin) or even Deathstroke, for example (both still in a league above). Jason's fanbase is growing, but slowly. I only know of a few comicfans that are also Jason fans here, for example (which is why I love to write about him in our thread).

those tv appearances are recent,

He has had his own book since 2011 its not about growing a fanbase anymore,

I mean since New 52 and through rebirth haven't HIS comic sales been low consistently? was he ever maintaining 30k I remember teen titans(Tims) and his were doing similar sales before and their book was rebooted

[Swallowtail]

A book consistently selling 18~19 copies units each month is stable and is in the upper tier of the low end.

By what metric? It's the third lowest selling superhero ongoing after Hawkman and Batman Beyond and <20,000 is usually considered the danger zone.

Not bad a for a book that is pretty much non-existent in marketing terms, no con/panel appearances for any of its creative teams, no ads on other books, the most it gets is a random tweet when the month's issue comes out.

Yes, a problem which could be largely circumvented with a new creative team. However you feel about his writing, there is a pretty huge elephant in the room when it comes to Scott Lobdell being invited onto panels.

A Saying that Jason's fanbase is small is not entirely accurate since it was thanks to their insistence that Jason got a book in the first place and recently, the few merchandise that exists of him tends to sell out and he is one of the most requested characters every time a new animation project or videogame comes out.

I never said anything about his fanbase being small. He's one of the most successful new characters of the last 20 years. I figured that the reason he has a comic is because he's a gateway character for new readers.

But while Tynion only needed 11 months to drive away nearly a third of the readership, Lobdell has managed to keep the book from losing other 10k readers through five years. So, why fix what is not broken?

Whether you think it's broken or not is a purely subjective opinion. I think quite a lot of people would agree New-52 Red Hood was broken during Lobdell's run, so quite a lot of people would probably argue returning to those elements is a bad idea. "Most Improved" is definitely the label that got slapped on Rebirth Red Hood. You're saying they should introduce new readers, but if the readership is just down to the core fanbase like yourself, who are those new readers?

Also saying, "Tynion was bad seven years ago so we must continue to have Lobdell" is a really poor, and frankly depressing argument.

[OBrianTallent]

Interesting to see Nightwing selling below Batgirl (and sad for one of my favorite characters) but DC has got to realize this stupid direction has to end. I also have to wonder if perhaps the sidelining of Biz and Artemis has been what has had the impact on the Red Hood's sales.

[Konja7]

Interesting to see Nightwing selling below Batgirl (and sad for one of my favorite characters) but DC has got to realize this stupid direction has to end. I also have to wonder if perhaps the sidelining of Biz and Artemis has been what has had the impact on the Red Hood's sales.

Batgirl start to sell higher than Nightwing after her comic get a new team.

However, at this time, it's likely Batgirl would sell than Nightwing if her comic has a different variant cover artist.

[Swallowtail]

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4401349]If he leaves the book from one day to another without being able to make a satisfactory conclusion to the story he's writing, I can assure you, I won't get the book, not blindy because it features my fave character. There are few things that I hate more than that kind of move (events, for starters, because they mess with the storyline even worse). Also, Lobdell already went off the book for a period in N52 and sales didn't improve. I doubt the writer is really the problem.

With all due respect, it seems strongly that editorial nixed first the story of the Outlaws as a team in favour of a solo book and then whatever the conclusion was to the story was he had been building for 30 chapters about Solitary and Jason's father and how he had been behind it all, and you are still reading the book.

[Zaresh]

those tv appearances are recent,

He has had his own book since 2011 its not about growing a fanbase anymore,

I mean since New 52 and through rebirth haven't HIS comic sales been low consistently? was he ever maintaining 30k I remember teen titans(Tims) and his were doing similar sales before and their book was rebooted

Oh, since 2011, he had the titular character and one of the main roles in an AAA best seller game, that spawned its own comicbook. And even if the animation movie was in 2010 (which I'm going to guess was the reason why they gave him a book for The New 52), it's been in the top of the animation movies lists as a fanfave. His popularity has been growing since them, it's just it clearly seems to be more popular outside the comicbook community. He was seling towards the 30-25k mark I think, but as far as I've seem, most books were doing way better those days. I'm guessing DC was selling less books and that's why.

Because he's what people seems to see as a "cool bad boy" who is also an underdog. Two factors for being a poochie. But it just happens that this poochie is also a very interesting character. Well, in my opinion, of course. I'm a fan, what can I do.