Superman vs. Nova

[The Arbiter]

Post Crisis Superman. 616 Richard. Nova Prime with Worldmind. Arena.

1: Normal match.

2: Equal reaction and flight speeds.

[Pendaran]

Rich gets blitzed out to crap in fight 1. Just spectacularly. What enhanced speed he has is basically fractional to Superman's.

In fight 2, at equal reaction time and flight speeds, Rich just needs to hang in long enough for the Worldmind to do the "open a wormhole in Superman" calcs, which, entirely possible, especially if he just puts everything into defense really.

[moonknight11]

Rich gets blitzed out to crap in fight 1. Just spectacularly. What enhanced speed he has is basically fractional to Superman's.

In fight 2, at equal reaction time and flight speeds, Rich just needs to hang in long enough for the Worldmind to do the "open a wormhole in Superman" calcs, which, entirely possible, especially if he just puts everything into defense really.

Yeah you have it locked down how it would go.

How do you think equal speeds but with no wormhole abilities would go down?

[big_adventure]

Yeah you have it locked down how it would go.

How do you think equal speeds but with no wormhole abilities would go down?

In a pure punch- and blast-up, it's close.

I guess Rich ought to be able to use his brother's trick of "weigh this punk down using Nova force." His brother, with an infinitesimal fraction of Rich's share of the Nova Force, held Strontian down for an extended period. Post-Crisis Superman might be stronger than Strontian but no so much stronger that Rich's massively higher level of force shouldn't be able to hold him. That's certainly enough for a 10-count.

EDITS because I was thinking current Superman, not Post-Crisis.

[Captain Morgan]

In a pure punch- and blast-up, it's close.

I guess Rich ought to be able to use his brother's trick of "weigh this punk down using Nova force." His brother, with an infinitesimal fraction of Rich's share of the Nova Force, held Strontian down for an extended period. Post-Crisis Superman might be stronger than Strontian but no so much stronger that Rich's massively higher level of force shouldn't be able to hold him. That's certainly enough for a 10-count.

EDITS because I was thinking current Superman, not Post-Crisis.

False, I'm afraid. Nova 28. Richard says he couldn't have done what his brother did, even with Nova Prime levels. His brother Robbie is prodigy at using those gravimetric fields. The best in six generations for intuitive force skills according to World Mind. It is very explicitly not a feat Rich can replicate.

Edit: Took me forever to find the scan, but it has been posted here to settle this argument before.

[big_adventure]

False, I'm afraid. Nova 28. Richard says he couldn't have done what his brother did, even with Nova Prime levels. His brother Robbie is prodigy at using those gravimetric fields. The best in six generations for intuitive force skills according to World Mind. It is very explicitly not a feat Rich can replicate.

I politely disagree, especially with Worldmind, who witnessed the feat, speaking in Richie's ear.

3 major points:

1. Richie was trying to talk his brother up at that point in time, so him saying "I couldn't have done that" could have just been that.

2. Worldmind is here, yo, so even if Richie doesn't think of the solution or doesn't do it, he's got Worldmind to do it for him.

3. Richie didn't NEED to do it, as he beat Strontian without needing to take such a step. And ironically, he beat Strontian using a technique that any Nova could have done if they had thought to use it.

One additional minor point...

I don't think that Rich specifically said "Even at Nova Prime levels, I couldn't have done that." I think he said "I couldn't have done that," which could absolutely be referring to "I couldn't have done that at Centurion levels." It could also have been Rich saying "I wouldn't have even thought to try it, but, come on, I'm Nova Prime, so I don't really need to say that, while I maybe couldn't do it with your level of efficiency, I could just throw the thousands of times more power at my disposal at the problem and make it happen anyway."

What I'm saying is, a throw-away conversation with a sibling isn't a feat, nor is it a lack of a feat. The Ten-Eyed Man is NOT the most dangerous man in the world, no matter what Batman says.

[Captain Morgan]

1. Richie was trying to talk his brother up at that point in time, so him saying "I couldn't have done that" could have just been that.

This ignores pretty much the entire context of the scene in the issue, and indeed the culmination of a whole story arc. The whole arc was about how recruitment had happened too fast, and Richard was worried about recruits being ready. In particular, for several issues Richard had been trying to talk Robbie into leaving the Corps because he didn't want his brother being endangered. After tons of Novas got massacred, Richard had just decided to dismiss hundreds of Nova cadets who weren't ready yet, and kept less than a dozen to train properly. Robbie made the cut because he was just that damn good.

Dismissing Richard's acknowledgement of Robbie's innate talent means that Richard has flipped 180 on his brother's safety just because he doesn't want to hurt his feelings, when he has been presented with the perfect opportunity to drum his little brother out of the Corps without incident. The fact that Robbie is kept around at this point can really only be explained by accepting Richard's words at face value.

. Worldmind is here, yo, so even if Richie doesn't think of the solution or doesn't do it, he's got Worldmind to do it for him.

It isn't a "I wouldn't have thought of it." It is "I couldn't have done it."

3. Richie didn't NEED to do it, as he beat Strontian without needing to take such a step. And ironically, he beat Strontian using a technique that any Nova could have done if they had thought to use it.

This is irrelevant to the argument you're making.

One additional minor point...

I don't think that Rich specifically said "Even at Nova Prime levels, I couldn't have done that." I think he said "I couldn't have done that," which could absolutely be referring to "I couldn't have done that at Centurion levels." It could also have been Rich saying "I wouldn't have even thought to try it, but, come on, I'm Nova Prime, so I don't really need to say that, while I maybe couldn't do it with your level of efficiency, I could just throw the thousands of times more power at my disposal at the problem and make it happen anyway."

No, that is very explicitly what he said. "I'm Nova Prime, Buster. I pack significantly higher levels of Nova force. And I'm telling you, I couldn't have done that."

[Captain Morgan]

The thing with field that kept Strontian pinned is it is presented as a matter of skill and finesse, not raw power. Robbie even says "She's way more powerful than me. It's taking every scrap of my concentration to maintain the structure of the gravimetric bubble that's keeping her pinned. One wrong move and she'll shatter it." And later, "High yield laser fire's not helpful when I'm trying to keep this grav-solid focused!"

Given the context of Richard's comments later, the reason Robbie can pull this off isn't because of the raw power of a Centurion, which pales in comparison to a Prime. And his concentration isn't him simply pouring raw power on. Novas aren't Green Lanterns, they don't get more power by willing it, they just direct an energy they already have. Robbie simply directed the energy better than Richard could. He was able to maintain an extremely delicate balance of forces on skill and skill alone.

I also don't know why you need to argue with the comics themselves when this feat would be SMvsFL if you try to use your explanation anyway, and Richard has plenty of his own feats to work with without needing to dip into stuff other people did that he explicitly says he couldn't do.

[big_adventure]

The thing with field that kept Strontian pinned is it is presented as a matter of skill and finesse, not raw power. Robbie even says "She's way more powerful than me. It's taking every scrap of my concentration to maintain the structure of the gravimetric bubble that's keeping her pinned. One wrong move and she'll shatter it." And later, "High yield laser fire's not helpful when I'm trying to keep this grav-solid focused!"

Given the context of Richard's comments later, the reason Robbie can pull this off isn't because of the raw power of a Centurion, which pales in comparison to a Prime. And his concentration isn't him simply pouring raw power on. Novas aren't Green Lanterns, they don't get more power by willing it, they just direct an energy they already have. Robbie simply directed the energy better than Richard could. He was able to maintain an extremely delicate balance of forces on skill and skill alone.

I also don't know why you need to argue with the comics themselves when this feat would be SMvsFL if you try to use your explanation anyway, and Richard has plenty of his own feats to work with without needing to dip into stuff other people did that he explicitly says he couldn't do.

I don't think that this really argues the points I was making, ESPECIALLY "worldmind could do it or direct it." It also doesn't argue that Rich was absolutely trying to boost his brother up at that point (and he wasn't aware that Worldmind was full on being a villain in the background here).

Also, I'm not arguing that Robbie isn't more skillful in this kind of thing than Rich. However, that being said, finesse isn't stopping someone from breaking chains through raw strength. So Centurions, at their utmost, certainly have enough force at their beck and call to do what Robbie did, even if almost all of them lack the finesse to weave it and hold it at the levels of force they are capable of pushing out. I would just posit, that regardless of what Rich said there when trying to boost his kid brother's confidence, he certainly SHOULD be able to do the same thing, even if he lacks Robbie's pure finesse levels, just by ladling on more force, something he's got orders of magnitude more of at his beck and call. Again, before considering that Worldmind can just do it for him or guide him through it if he doesn't know how to do this himself.

Again, just because someone says something on panel, doesn't make it true. Pretty much every single person in the DC universe thinks that Superman is a lot more powerful than any Green Lantern. EVERYONE thinks that Superman is a lot more powerful than Wally West. The Ten-Eyed Man, again, isn't the most dangerous man on Earth. Morlun and Mr. Negative don't hit harder than the Hulk, no matter what Spider-Man says. 616 Cap is not a threat to 616 Extremis Iron Man in hand-to-hand, no matter what Tony's armor says, and the same really ought to apply to the MCU as well. Charles Xavier, in his Xavier Protocols, defined freaking WOLVERINE as one of the biggest threats, and one of the hardest to beat, of the X-Men. And that he was HARDER to beat without the metal than with it. This is not at all born out on panel. Vargas isn't just a perfect normal human, despite what he says.

I'm not arguing against a feat here: Rich didn't try to restrain Strontian and fail. He didn't bother, he had other ways of shutting her down, and he used them.

[Captain Morgan]

I don't think that this really argues the points I was making, ESPECIALLY "worldmind could do it or direct it."

Worldmind doesn't have feats for doing this either.

It also doesn't argue that Rich was absolutely trying to boost his brother up at that point

"Boosting his brother up" does not mean lying to his face, especially when that being a lie would mean putting his brother's life on the line, which a multi-issue story arc resolved around Richard not wanting to do and dismissing Novas who he didn't think were ready for the big leagues.

(and he wasn't aware that Worldmind was full on being a villain in the background here).

Pretty sure you're getting the order of events mixed up here. Worldmind was revealed to have gone rogue when melded with Ego several issues before this, and was currently free of Ego's influence.

Also, I'm not arguing that Robbie isn't more skillful in this kind of thing than Rich. However, that being said, finesse isn't stopping someone from breaking chains through raw strength. So Centurions, at their utmost, certainly have enough force at their beck and call to do what Robbie did, even if almost all of them lack the finesse to weave it and hold it at the levels of force they are capable of pushing out. I would just posit, that regardless of what Rich said there when trying to boost his kid brother's confidence, he certainly SHOULD be able to do the same thing, even if he lacks Robbie's pure finesse levels, just by ladling on more force, something he's got orders of magnitude more of at his beck and call. Again, before considering that Worldmind can just do it for him or guide him through it if he doesn't know how to do this himself.

Your supposition isn't backed up by a performance Richard has actually done, and flies in the face of the actual comic.

Again, just because someone says something on panel, doesn't make it true. Pretty much every single person in the DC universe thinks that Superman is a lot more powerful than any Green Lantern. EVERYONE thinks that Superman is a lot more powerful than Wally West. The Ten-Eyed Man, again, isn't the most dangerous man on Earth. Morlun and Mr. Negative don't hit harder than the Hulk, no matter what Spider-Man says. 616 Cap is not a threat to 616 Extremis Iron Man in hand-to-hand, no matter what Tony's armor says, and the same really ought to apply to the MCU as well. Charles Xavier, in his Xavier Protocols, defined freaking WOLVERINE as one of the biggest threats, and one of the hardest to beat, of the X-Men. And that he was HARDER to beat without the metal than with it. This is not at all born out on panel. Vargas isn't just a perfect normal human, despite what he says.

The difference is that those instances are where the narration flies against the actual feats. There's no actual feat to argue against here. Richard didn't do the thing you said he can do. Richard says he couldn't have done it.

I'm not arguing against a feat here: Rich didn't try to restrain Strontian and fail. He didn't bother, he had other ways of shutting her down, and he used them.

You're arguing Richard can do something despite feats and presentation saying otherwise.

[Captain Morgan]

And again, if we accept this version of events... The showing is SMvsFL anyway because Nova Prime is not presented as someone who can pin down Gladiator level beings for hours on end. He's still presented as someone below the Herald weight class throughout Annihilation and who would be completely hosed against the Silver Surfer.

Having a way to exploit their weakness and thus get an easier path to victory does nothing to back up the idea that he can match them in a direct contest of power.

[Captain Morgan]

As a contrasting example, let's look at Omega Men #12. Kyle Rayner is confronted with a vault of Inertron Steel two feet thick. He says "I once watched Hal cut through two inches of Intertron. It nearly killed him. I'm sorry. I can't." The difference between that scene and this Nova issue? Kyle then goes on to actually do the thing.

This is not that. And it really shouldn't be debatable.

[big_adventure]

Worldmind doesn't have feats for doing this either.

Worldmind has oodles of feats for helping Rich do things with the Nova Force, and for doing things itself with the Nova Force. Worldmind also knows every intricate detail of everything done by Novas with said force, since it's inextricably linked to the force.

"Boosting his brother up" does not mean lying to his face, especially when that being a lie would mean putting his brother's life on the line, which a multi-issue story arc resolved around Richard not wanting to do and dismissing Novas who he didn't think were ready for the big leagues.

It would be the exact opposite of that: his brother did a really impressive thing and was down-grading it and thus diminishing his own feat. Rich, as his direct boss AND his brother, was saying what he needed to say to boost his confidence.

Pretty sure you're getting the order of events mixed up here. Worldmind was revealed to have gone rogue when melded with Ego several issues before this, and was currently free of Ego's influence.

You are correct. I apologize.

Your supposition isn't backed up by a performance Richard has actually done, and flies in the face of the actual comic.

Nova force can do it. The thing that manages the Nova force lives in Rich's head. Rich has order of magnitude more raw oomph than his brother.

The difference is that those instances are where the narration flies against the actual feats. There's no actual feat to argue against here. Richard didn't do the thing you said he can do. Richard says he couldn't have done it.

I say that Nova Force is a thing, and that Rich has a ton more of it than his baby brother. That's all on panel and stipped. Even if he didn't know a thing like this was possible before, he does now, and has an all-seeing AI at his beck and call living in his brain that knows every detail of how said force is used to help if he can't figure it out himself, plus Rich has stupidly more raw power at his disposal if, for some reason, he's not as efficient at it.

You're arguing Richard can do something despite feats and presentation saying otherwise.

No, there are no feats for Rich failing a thing like that. Again, a thing done by the force that Rich controls, when the thing that knows everything about said force and all manipulations of said force lives in his head and has explicit feats for showing Rich how to use the Force on the fly, in combat.

[big_adventure]

And again, if we accept this version of events... The showing is SMvsFL anyway because Nova Prime is not presented as someone who can pin down Gladiator level beings for hours on end. He's still presented as someone below the Herald weight class throughout Annihilation and who would be completely hosed against the Silver Surfer.

Having a way to exploit their weakness and thus get an easier path to victory does nothing to back up the idea that he can match them in a direct contest of power.

Eh, Nova Prime was most certainly presented as a dude operating on Herald-ish or Herlad-light levels. He's absolutely presented as being at least on Quasar levels, he wastes a crazy strong version of Annihilus, he lasts a little while against the best of the "normal" Heralds (Surfer) despite Worldmind, who is most definitely a whiny baby who never thinks Rich can do what he can do, doing everything he can to STOP Rich from even engaging him. He does just fine against the foes who fight fair against Heralds throughout the arcs where he's hanging around with them. Yes, Worldmind absolutely says "RUN BITCH, RUN" when Rich is confronting Surfer, and I'm not saying Rich would have won that fight, but this is the Silver Surfer we are talking about, and it's not like he just one-shots Richie or anything. Worldmind was also arguing at the time in protection of itself: this was after the destruction of the Nova Corps and Xandar, and Worldmind's prime directive as it were was self-preservation at all costs. Worldmind didn't want to engage ANYTHING at that time, even things that were REALLY no threat against Nova Prime, because of the risk to itself: if Rich lost and died, all Xandar culture and the entire Nova Force was kaput.

As a contrasting example, let's look at Omega Men #12. Kyle Rayner is confronted with a vault of Inertron Steel two feet thick. He says "I once watched Hal cut through two inches of Intertron. It nearly killed him. I'm sorry. I can't." The difference between that scene and this Nova issue? Kyle then goes on to actually do the thing.

This is not that. And it really shouldn't be debatable.

And to separate the thing again: Kyle had no choice but to cut through the vault, and Kyle, being Kyle, manned the hell up to do it. It's a badass feat. Rich had a much simpler choice against Strontian and chose to take it. Rich simply didn't need to emply the same trick. Robbie DID, he had literally no other way to do anything but die like all of the other new Novas did when Strontian was on the field, well, at least as far as he could figure.

That said, we're really getting into the weeds on one specific esoteric. I don't really feel like going further here: your mind is definitely made up, and for absolutely acceptable reasons as far as I'm concerned. I'm clearly not going to convince you, despite what I feel is a cogent, though, as you state, not specifically feat-based - though also not feat-contradicted, argument.

[Captain Morgan]

Eh, Nova Prime was most certainly presented as a dude operating on Herald-ish or Herlad-light levels. He's absolutely presented as being at least on Quasar levels, he wastes a crazy strong version of Annihilus, he lasts a little while against the best of the "normal" Heralds (Surfer) despite Worldmind, who is most definitely a whiny baby who never thinks Rich can do what he can do, doing everything he can to STOP Rich from even engaging him. He does just fine against the foes who fight fair against Heralds throughout the arcs where he's hanging around with them. Yes, Worldmind absolutely says "RUN BITCH, RUN" when Rich is confronting Surfer, and I'm not saying Rich would have won that fight, but this is the Silver Surfer we are talking about, and it's not like he just one-shots Richie or anything. Worldmind was also arguing at the time in protection of itself: this was after the destruction of the Nova Corps and Xandar, and Worldmind's prime directive as it were was self-preservation at all costs. Worldmind didn't want to engage ANYTHING at that time, even things that were REALLY no threat against Nova Prime, because of the risk to itself: if Rich lost and died, all Xandar culture and the entire Nova Force was kaput.



And to separate the thing again: Kyle had no choice but to cut through the vault, and Kyle, being Kyle, manned the hell up to do it. It's a badass feat. Rich had a much simpler choice against Strontian and chose to take it. Rich simply didn't need to emply the same trick. Robbie DID, he had literally no other way to do anything but die like all of the other new Novas did when Strontian was on the field, well, at least as far as he could figure.

That said, we're really getting into the weeds on one specific esoteric. I don't really feel like going further here: your mind is definitely made up, and for absolutely acceptable reasons as far as I'm concerned. I'm clearly not going to convince you, despite what I feel is a cogent, though, as you state, not specifically feat-based - though also not feat-contradicted, argument.

Fair enough bud. I'm inclined to leave this one alone.

We also are in a really niche thread. There are so many qualifiers on the fight to even make this a relevant topic when we have disabled powers on both sides.

Edit: In fact, it seems like either way Rich's tactic to an easy win in the speed equalized fight relies on World Mind. So I think we can all agree Supes wins the speed fight, and Worldmind wins Richie the second. Without Worldmind to run calculations and equal speed, this basically becomes a punch up, which at least seems like an actual fight. So maybe that's more worth focusing on?