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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    You could redeem Hank Pym if every writer/editor wasnt so focused on refferencing a 40 year old art mistake in a panel.

  2. #17
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    When he eventually does return, and he meets Nadia, I think that will be interesting. She disowned him at the end of Unstoppable Wasp volume 1, taking Janet's surname, because she found out about the slap. But now she's been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and knows Hank had it too, I think she'd probably forgive him, blaming it on a bipolar episode. That would redeem him, as it would show it was due to illness and not malice.

    Since Unstoppable Wasp volume 2 has been cancelled, that story would probably need to happen in Champions.
    Last edited by Digifiend; 06-25-2019 at 03:33 AM.
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  3. #18
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    You could redeem Hank Pym if every writer/editor wasnt so focused on refferencing a 40 year old art mistake in a panel.
    He's already been redeemed for it, but it's also the most interesting thing about the character. So it will never stop coming up.
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  4. #19

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    Remember that the Ultimate universe may return in two ways, that may not necessarily happen together. One is the return as an editorial brand (meaning, with published "Ultimate something" comics), and the other is the return as a concept in-story. Something that is out there, and provides a setting, characters and plot elements for the writers to play with. Like Earth-2 in the Pre-Crisis DC Comics.

  5. #20
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Guardians was actually following the path set out in the Annihilation Crossover. That crossover which happened in 616 did that to the Guardians in the comics and introduced elements and the lineup that made it into the movie. Though of course, Gunn put his own spin and altered from there.
    I know. But what I mean is, in the comics, with Annihilation, the GotG were more like the Avengers. A group of established characters that assembled on a team. What Nicole Perlman and James Gunn did was distill the property into something more akin to the Fantastic Four, X-Men, etc.

    The clearest way to see what I'm talking about is the case of Gamora. In the comics, she'd long since left Thanos' side by the time the GotG were established. Her origin story had been told. In the film, though, her leaving Thanos is intertwined with the foundation of the GotG. The Guardians of the Galaxy's origin story is her origin story.

    In the film, the Guardians are not a group of established heroes that band together. They are a group of criminals that learn to be heroes together. Their heroic origins are tied together into a single story, a single property.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah, because redeeming Hank Pym in the comics is this fruitless endeavor and the movie decided to go ahead with the Ant Man they can work with.
    I think it also has to do with Scott Lang's premise as Ant-Man being more compelling than Hank's. I like Hank, but his premise isn't much more than "guy invents supersuit and becomes a superhero". Nothing wrong with that, but, it doesn't give you a lot to work with in terms of distinction. Versus Lang's criminal with a heart of gold thing.

    Regardless of motivation, it was an interesting thing to see.

  6. #21
    Spectacular Member Nerdman3000's Avatar
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    Honestly I only completely care about one thing with this news about the return of the Ultimate Universe: The possible return of the best Jessica Drew, otherwise known as Ultimate Spider-Woman, whom I frankly 100 times prefer over her 616 counterpart.

    Ultimate_Spider-Woman.jpg

    Now I just need her to cross over into the 616 universe to join Miles, like she should have done after Secret Wars.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    You could redeem Hank Pym if every writer/editor wasnt so focused on refferencing a 40 year old art mistake in a panel.
    Thing is it wasn't an "art mistake". I recently read the entire story arc...Avengers #211-#230 (which really should be collected and titled "The Hank slaps Janet saga" because that's more or less what that entire story arc is about, it's one of the best Avengers stories and the definitive Hank Pym story), and that scene was written, drawn, and followed-through in-panel as an act of abuse. Recently Shooter has come forth and done some CYA but in the actual story itself the intent is clear. Hank didn't intentionally strike at Janet yes but he did so, and after he did it, he didn't apologize or react with shock. His attitude was to tell Janet "Pick yourself off the floor and submit to my evil plan." A lot of people compare that to what Peter did in the Clone Saga, and yeah that was a lousy scene but there Peter's instinctive reaction is one of horror and shock, and he immediately apologizes. He doesn't continue to rant on "No Ben's the clone, I"m the real me".

    People have misread and misinterpreted that entire Hank Pym thing, mostly a bunch of male fans who go on about a great character being sullied when indeed what Shooter had done was more or less in line with what Hank's in-page actions up to that point led to. It's like people thinking posthumous Gwen was this great character but nobody acknowledges and reads the earlier stuff written when she's alive.

    That being said, I don't think Ultimates handled Hank Pym well either. The original comic was a mature, sober, and adult story about a flawed man taking responsibility for his actions and maturing and becoming a better person, part of which involves him giving him being a superhero for good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    But now she's been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and knows Hank had it too, I think she'd probably forgive him, blaming it on a bipolar episode. That would redeem him, as it would show it was due to illness and not malice.
    The fact is that he did it. While acknowledging mental illness as a factor in one's actions is important, the truth is people get better by acknowledging some responsibility for the actions they did under duress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    He's already been redeemed for it, but it's also the most interesting thing about the character. So it will never stop coming up.
    More or less. Yeah. Before that story, Hank Pym was hardly ever much of an Avenger. He spent issues as a stay-at-home husband while Janet was the popular one. Hank Pym was a "founding" member of the Avengers but that means diddly squat when the Avengers were proverbial for constantly revolving and cycling runups and so on with ridiculous turnover. His relationship with Janet was always toxic. He fell in love with her because she resembled his first wife, she was also far younger than him, their personalities clashed. He was insecure and jealous, while she was constantly under presurre that she, an extroverted social girl, still liked the nerd. And boy...read their marriage issue, don't ever complain about Peter/MJ being rushed after that mess. The entire attempt to redeem Hank has come at the expense of Janet. She was a founding Avenger, the one who came up with the damn name, she was active far longer and far more often than him. The entire "Hank slaps Janet saga" was all about Janet becoming mature and ultimately becoming team leader. The attempt to redeem Hank has led to Janet being "dead" and in the Ant-Man movies, she's a lost lenore type in the first film and then comes at the end of the second one.

    The whole "redeem Hank" movement in comics, while well intentioned to some, is entirely a sexist enterprise directed towards soothing manpain.

  8. #23
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdman3000 View Post
    Honestly I only completely care about one thing with this news about the return of the Ultimate Universe: The possible return of the best Jessica Drew, otherwise known as Ultimate Spider-Woman, whom I frankly 100 times prefer over her 616 counterpart.

    Ultimate_Spider-Woman.jpg

    Now I just need her to cross over into the 616 universe to join Miles, like she should have done after Secret Wars.
    616 Jessica isn't actually why she didn't. Silk and Spider-Gwen are the culprits. That's what Bendis was told. There's already enough Spider-Women. Yet, she was going by Black Widow in the end...
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  9. #24

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    Just for the record: when domestic abuse is featured in other media (with the exception of slapstick comedy, and accidents that are immediately acknowledged as such), there are never "shades of gray" to it. The abuser is always shown as a monster, and never gets any justifications or redemption. What Marvel does with Pym is a rarity. Ultimate Marvel treated Pym as a monster, yes, but that's because they tried to use a mature and cinematic approach to the events, and that's the way everybody else deals with domestic abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    616 Jessica isn't actually why she didn't. Silk and Spider-Gwen are the culprits. That's what Bendis was told. There's already enough Spider-Women. Yet, she was going by Black Widow in the end...
    He should have hired me as his agent. I would have pointed that it is the only transgender character in Marvel. Yes, transgender with a sci-fi background, but the idea is still there: a person with a body of one sex and an identity of the other, coming to terms with it. Loki and Xavin do not count (freely metamorphing from one gender to the other and back each time you feel like it is not how transgender identity works). More than keep her as a background character around, they should have given her a comic book for her own.
    Last edited by Ultimate Captain America; 06-26-2019 at 11:58 AM.

  10. #25
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Thing is it wasn't an "art mistake". I recently read the entire story arc...Avengers #211-#230 (which really should be collected and titled "The Hank slaps Janet saga" because that's more or less what that entire story arc is about, it's one of the best Avengers stories and the definitive Hank Pym story), and that scene was written, drawn, and followed-through in-panel as an act of abuse. Recently Shooter has come forth and done some CYA but in the actual story itself the intent is clear. Hank didn't intentionally strike at Janet yes but he did so, and after he did it, he didn't apologize or react with shock. His attitude was to tell Janet "Pick yourself off the floor and submit to my evil plan." A lot of people compare that to what Peter did in the Clone Saga, and yeah that was a lousy scene but there Peter's instinctive reaction is one of horror and shock, and he immediately apologizes. He doesn't continue to rant on "No Ben's the clone, I"m the real me".

    People have misread and misinterpreted that entire Hank Pym thing, mostly a bunch of male fans who go on about a great character being sullied when indeed what Shooter had done was more or less in line with what Hank's in-page actions up to that point led to. It's like people thinking posthumous Gwen was this great character but nobody acknowledges and reads the earlier stuff written when she's alive.

    That being said, I don't think Ultimates handled Hank Pym well either. The original comic was a mature, sober, and adult story about a flawed man taking responsibility for his actions and maturing and becoming a better person, part of which involves him giving him being a superhero for good.



    The fact is that he did it. While acknowledging mental illness as a factor in one's actions is important, the truth is people get better by acknowledging some responsibility for the actions they did under duress.



    More or less. Yeah. Before that story, Hank Pym was hardly ever much of an Avenger. He spent issues as a stay-at-home husband while Janet was the popular one. Hank Pym was a "founding" member of the Avengers but that means diddly squat when the Avengers were proverbial for constantly revolving and cycling runups and so on with ridiculous turnover. His relationship with Janet was always toxic. He fell in love with her because she resembled his first wife, she was also far younger than him, their personalities clashed. He was insecure and jealous, while she was constantly under presurre that she, an extroverted social girl, still liked the nerd. And boy...read their marriage issue, don't ever complain about Peter/MJ being rushed after that mess. The entire attempt to redeem Hank has come at the expense of Janet. She was a founding Avenger, the one who came up with the damn name, she was active far longer and far more often than him. The entire "Hank slaps Janet saga" was all about Janet becoming mature and ultimately becoming team leader. The attempt to redeem Hank has led to Janet being "dead" and in the Ant-Man movies, she's a lost lenore type in the first film and then comes at the end of the second one.

    The whole "redeem Hank" movement in comics, while well intentioned to some, is entirely a sexist enterprise directed towards soothing manpain.
    In all sincerity, thanks for posting this. Really clarifies some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    Just for the record: when domestic abuse is featured in other media (with the exception of slapstick comedy, and accidents that are immediately acknowledged as such), there are never "shades of gray" to it. The abuser is always shown as a monster, and never gets any justifications or redemption. What Marvel does with Pym is a rarity. Ultimate Marvel treated Pym as a monster, yes, but that's because they tried to use a mature and cinematic approach to the events, and that's the way everybody else deals with domestic abuse.



    He should have hired me as his agent. I would have pointed that it is the only transgender character in Marvel. Yes, transgender with a sci-fi background, but the idea is still there: a person with a body of one sex and an identity of the other, coming to terms with it. Loki and Xavin do not count (freely metamorphing from one gender to the other and back each time you feel like it is not how transgender identity works). More than keep her as a background character around, they should have given her a comic book for her own.
    Fully agree with this part, though I'm pretty sure Marvel might've made it a limited series, if only to test the waters for a full ongoing.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    You guys make valid, good points. Except Jim Shooter says rather clearly it was an art mistake.

    http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-p...e-beater.html/

    Hank was meant to accidentally hit her while throwing his arms up in resignation. Not this.

    1891370-hank1.jpg

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    You guys make valid, good points. Except Jim Shooter says rather clearly it was an art mistake.

    http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-p...e-beater.html/

    Hank was meant to accidentally hit her while throwing his arms up in resignation. Not this.

    1891370-hank1.jpg
    I think that Shooter simply lied to clear himself from fandom harassment. The "art mistake" does not make sense with the rest of the story, which is clearly about a domestic abuse.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    I think that Shooter simply lied to clear himself from fandom harassment. The "art mistake" does not make sense with the rest of the story, which is clearly about a domestic abuse.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    You guys make valid, good points. Except Jim Shooter says rather clearly it was an art mistake.
    Read the issue. Avengers #213. In the scene right after Hank hit Janet and forced her to help his crazy plan, the next scene is the Avengers Mansion court-martial. Janet arrives wearing sunglasses covering her "shiner" (which by the way is a general code for husband forcing wife to cover up abuse, also making them use makeup in public and so on). Then in the scene when Hank makes an ass of himself, Janet facepalms and removes her glasses and reveals her bruises to the rest of the Avengers. Thor's response is, "Odd's blood, did he strike thee?" The dialogue by the way was written by Jim Shooter and stuff like hiding bruises with sunglasses and other behavior isn't stuff that can be boiled down to "Art mistake". That comes from specific script directions. So yeah Hank did abuse Janet, emotionally, and psychologically at first, and then physically, and after doing that he still forced her to cover it up and participate in his ego-driven scheme. This action was recognized as abuse in-page by his team-mates and condemned immediately.

    Anyway, that's for a Hank Pym forum to discuss. But basically read the original comics Avengers #211-230. Because Hank's breakdown is something that is treated pretty maturely for the time. And it's a great run with issues by Shooter, fill-ins by Michelinie, and finshing with Roger Stern starting his monumental run on The Avengers in the end with Avengers #228-230. Stern wrote Hank Pym's fight against the Masters of Evil (while also setting them up to be used for his landmark story Under Siege) and that was far and away his best moment as a character ever, before or since, and it's inextricably tied to him hitting Janet.

    Hank Pym was always the f--k up Avenger before the slap and after that. He makes Peter look well-balanced. You may think Peter has it rough, but next to Hank "Hot Mess" Pym, he's Mr. Smooth.

  14. #29

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    Shooter, who says that the slap was an "art mistake", also wrote this scene from Avengers #224


  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    I think that Shooter simply lied to clear himself from fandom harassment. The "art mistake" does not make sense with the rest of the story, which is clearly about a domestic abuse.
    There is no reason to doubt Shooter that this was a scene that came about because the artist interpreted the scene differently that Shooter intended. He says he caught it but couldn't fix it. Honestly, it probably changes little about the story since the story was about a very strained relationship that was in trouble. Shooter doesn't dismiss this, he just picks up the story with that now being part of it.

    This is one of those weird things that people somehow think is one or the other. It is both. It is an art mistake. And Hank did hit Janet.

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