Return of the Ultimate Universe?

[Frontier]

I think it also has to do with Scott Lang's premise as Ant-Man being more compelling than Hank's. I like Hank, but his premise isn't much more than "guy invents supersuit and becomes a superhero". Nothing wrong with that, but, it doesn't give you a lot to work with in terms of distinction. Versus Lang's criminal with a heart of gold thing.

I liked how Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes spun Hank's personality. It made him a really unique and interesting character, and why I'm a fan of Hank now .

[Ursalink]

Whatever they are planning for Miles, if they are going to bring the Ultimate version of the Green Goblin, they HAVE to give us 616's Spider-Man against him. I can't stop thinking this could be a perfect chance for Peter to unleash himself against a Hulkized version of his greatest enemy. I mean, a monster Goblin will surely be more difficult to kill than just a guy with a mask, but Spidey could have retribution for so many years suffering Osborn's schemes, without worrying of killing him.

[Huntsman Spider]

Agreed.



Read the issue. Avengers #213. In the scene right after Hank hit Janet and forced her to help his crazy plan, the next scene is the Avengers Mansion court-martial. Janet arrives wearing sunglasses covering her "shiner" (which by the way is a general code for husband forcing wife to cover up abuse, also making them use makeup in public and so on). Then in the scene when Hank makes an ass of himself, Janet facepalms and removes her glasses and reveals her bruises to the rest of the Avengers. Thor's response is, "Odd's blood, did he strike thee?" The dialogue by the way was written by Jim Shooter and stuff like hiding bruises with sunglasses and other behavior isn't stuff that can be boiled down to "Art mistake". That comes from specific script directions. So yeah Hank did abuse Janet, emotionally, and psychologically at first, and then physically, and after doing that he still forced her to cover it up and participate in his ego-driven scheme. This action was recognized as abuse in-page by his team-mates and condemned immediately.

Anyway, that's for a Hank Pym forum to discuss. But basically read the original comics Avengers #211-230. Because Hank's breakdown is something that is treated pretty maturely for the time. And it's a great run with issues by Shooter, fill-ins by Michelinie, and finshing with Roger Stern starting his monumental run on The Avengers in the end with Avengers #228-230. Stern wrote Hank Pym's fight against the Masters of Evil (while also setting them up to be used for his landmark story Under Siege) and that was far and away his best moment as a character ever, before or since, and it's inextricably tied to him hitting Janet.

Hank Pym was always the f--k up Avenger before the slap and after that. He makes Peter look well-balanced. You may think Peter has it rough, but next to Hank "Hot Mess" Pym, he's Mr. Smooth.

In an issue of Marvel Knights Spider-Man (after Mark Millar's 12-issue opening arc), Spider-Man shows his spider-tracers to Pym and when he explains how they work and when he first developed them, Pym remarks that he doesn't know what's worse, that a fifteen-year-old managed what took Pym himself half his adult life to figure out, or that said fifteen-year-old is wasting all those brains on punching out petty thugs. Something to that effect. Definitely bears out your point about him making Peter look like he has his s*** together.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In an issue of Marvel Knights Spider-Man (after Mark Millar's 12-issue opening arc), Spider-Man shows his spider-tracers to Pym and when he explains how they work and when he first developed them, Pym remarks that he doesn't know what's worse, that a fifteen-year-old managed what took Pym himself half his adult life to figure out, or that said fifteen-year-old is wasting all those brains on punching out petty thugs. Something to that effect.

Considering Peter made those tracers to punch up and beat up those thugs in the first place, I don't think that's fair. But then again, the creator of Ultron is in no position to talk.

I mean Hank Pym has paradoxically become a more active superhero after the slap than before. Before, the Avengers roster changed all the time. Hank Pym was essentially the MCU Hawkeye of his day, with writers and editors making him the butt of the team because his powers and motifs (Ant-Man) didn't seem impressive next to Thor and Iron Man. Then Henry Pym started changing his identities, which was in-page an attempt by him to make himself a badass. He made Ultron and so on. he was house-husband to Janet and jealous and resentful about her spending time away from him.

Basically, Spider-Man is a more senior, active, veteran superhero than Hank is. But of course the comics will never acknowledge that, because thanks to brand politics, being an Avenger makes you special in the eyes of "street heroes" even if said Avenger (Hank) hasn't done anything to earn it. That's one reason why I don't think the Avengers being this special team in Marvel works. It feels "un-Marvel" it's more like DC where the Justice League have this exalted position. I get why the Fantastic Four have that reputation but I don't think the Avengers should. I miss the days when the X-Men were the center because it kept stuff decentralized, and the X-Men could and still do talk smack and look down on the Avengers, the FF and others in a way Spider-Man can't.

Definitely bears out your point about him making Peter look like he has his s*** together.

That's the whole issue of Peter being this woebegone guy. His life is positively enviable next to any mutant's, next to Daredevil (Peter's lost the "one girlfriend", in Matt's case it's "which-girlfriend-I-haven't-lost"). And next to Pym, Peter's the smart one. The other problem with Pym is that there's this weird fan tendency where they try and make Pym important for being a "founding" Avenger (which rarely extends to Janet who need I remind anyone came up with the damn name). I mean Hulk was a founding Avenger, he doesn't get that same respect. And Hulk didn't slap his wife and sicced a killer robot on his friends to make himself look good. Or you know accuse Captain America of being a sleazebag at a hearing about his incompetence.

The problem with Shooter's story, is that he was planning to end Henry Pym as a superhero, using Pym as an example to show that being a hero is not cut out for everyone. Shooter was more or less confirming what had already come to pass. At the time, Michelinie made Scott Lang (and yeah he existed before the slap) as a legacy for the original Tales to Astonish Ant-Man, a version of the character that hadn't existed for a decade. Pym wasn't an active Avenger at the time. But the minute you bring progression in a logical way to a comic, a bunch of people somewhere set their sights on setting the record straight. And that has come at the price of Janet van Dyne.

[Huntsman Spider]

Considering Peter made those tracers to punch up and beat up those thugs in the first place, I don't think that's fair. But then again, the creator of Ultron is in no position to talk.

I mean Hank Pym has paradoxically become a more active superhero after the slap than before. Before, the Avengers roster changed all the time. Hank Pym was essentially the MCU Hawkeye of his day, with writers and editors making him the butt of the team because his powers and motifs (Ant-Man) didn't seem impressive next to Thor and Iron Man. Then Henry Pym started changing his identities, which was in-page an attempt by him to make himself a badass. He made Ultron and so on. he was house-husband to Janet and jealous and resentful about her spending time away from him.

Basically, Spider-Man is a more senior, active, veteran superhero than Hank is. But of course the comics will never acknowledge that, because thanks to brand politics, being an Avenger makes you special in the eyes of "street heroes" even if said Avenger (Hank) hasn't done anything to earn it. That's one reason why I don't think the Avengers being this special team in Marvel works. It feels "un-Marvel" it's more like DC where the Justice League have this exalted position. I get why the Fantastic Four have that reputation but I don't think the Avengers should. I miss the days when the X-Men were the center because it kept stuff decentralized, and the X-Men could and still do talk smack and look down on the Avengers, the FF and others in a way Spider-Man can't.



That's the whole issue of Peter being this woebegone guy. His life is positively enviable next to any mutant's, next to Daredevil (Peter's lost the "one girlfriend", in Matt's case it's "which-girlfriend-I-haven't-lost"). And next to Pym, Peter's the smart one. The other problem with Pym is that there's this weird fan tendency where they try and make Pym important for being a "founding" Avenger (which rarely extends to Janet who need I remind anyone came up with the damn name). I mean Hulk was a founding Avenger, he doesn't get that same respect. And Hulk didn't slap his wife and sicced a killer robot on his friends to make himself look good. Or you know accuse Captain America of being a sleazebag at a hearing about his incompetence.

The problem with Shooter's story, is that he was planning to end Henry Pym as a superhero, using Pym as an example to show that being a hero is not cut out for everyone. Shooter was more or less confirming what had already come to pass. At the time, Michelinie made Scott Lang (and yeah he existed before the slap) as a legacy for the original Tales to Astonish Ant-Man, a version of the character that hadn't existed for a decade. Pym wasn't an active Avenger at the time. But the minute you bring progression in a logical way to a comic, a bunch of people somewhere set their sights on setting the record straight. And that has come at the price of Janet van Dyne.

Interesting points and observations. I would say in regards to the X-Men talking smack and looking down on the Avengers that that's a byproduct of the Avengers mostly turning a blind eye except for the occasional nod of compassion or token sympathy whenever the U.S. government starts off on another genocide crusade against mutants and the writers starting to address that elephant in the room in the 21st century. (Sadly, that's mostly to stir up drama and discord between the two teams rather than have it lead to any lasting change for the better.) As for the Avengers' elevated status being "un-Marvel" . . . more "un-Marvel" than the idea of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson being happily married, perhaps?

I'm kidding. I understand the points you're making, especially the one about how Janet Van Dyne was left by the wayside for the sake of salvaging Hank Pym's character. Will agree with Frontier, though, that the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes version was probably the best iteration of the character ever, aside from when they decided to adapt his transformation into Yellowjacket. That, I don't see leading anywhere good, so contrary to popular opinion, it might be for the best that EMH ended when it did.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As for the Avengers' elevated status being "un-Marvel" . . . more "un-Marvel" than the idea of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson being happily married, perhaps?

Originally Slott brought it up in another context than about the marriage. But yeah, while I disagree with that, I do think the Avengers being this special team is not good for the Marvel Universe, and it doesn't work if there's this weird class bias where street heroes are somehow looked down upon for not being Avengers. That's fine if it's there among fans, but this has seeped in the mainstream Marvel universe too and it stinks. In real-life we don't insult first-responders and paramedics and others because they aren't part of the US Marine Corps. We don't see this in DC...I mean in the Justice League nobody looks down on the Question or other street-heroes because they aren't Superman, mostly because Superman is also a street-hero himself, helping local and everyday problems, with nothing and no one being beneath his pay-grade.

The truth is that while the stated position of the Avengers was "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", in actual fact the Avengers were a dumping ground for rejects and leftovers. It was the team for characters who largely couldn't carry a title who weren't being used much and so on. It had ridiculous turnover and roster changes. The Avengers were for most of its history, a team of trash-babies. One of my favorite Avengers issues "The Faithful Servant" (The Avengers #280, by Roger Stern) captures that, with Jarvis reflecting: "There have been so many Avengers over the years. Some stayed so briefly, it is hard to even remember them. Hercules, the Beast, the Falcon, Hellcat, poor Ms. Marvel...I tried to serve them all well, to make their stays as pleasant as possible. After all. The life of an Avenger is not easy." By the way if you want a single issue that tells you concisely and effectively the entire history of the Avengers, "The faithful servant" is it. Stern was a master of using continuity in a way that felt in-character and not expository and showing heroes from the perspective of regular people, which humanizes them.

Then you know there's that famous 2-Parter which Stern wrote (he wrote Avengers and ASM at the same time as this), where Spider-Man auditions to be an Avenger but is turned down, and Spider-Man calls them out in Avengers #236. "Hey, I'm Spider-Man, Remember? I was sticking to walls when you guys were still looking for a clubhouse, I'm no green rookie!" I mean it's true, Spider-Man was active before the formation of the Avengers. He is their senior and veteran. Part of the reason why Mark Millar was allowed license to show the Ultimates in Ultimate Marvel as essentially awful human beings is that he was allowed to do so. Whereas Bendis didn't have license for Ultimate Peter to go that far.

That, I don't see leading anywhere good, so contrary to popular opinion, it might be for the best that EMH ended when it did.

It's a version of Hank Pym that doesn't really exist in the comics. It's one the cartoons have made. The MCU is faithful at least in that Hank Pym is finished as a hero and that Scott Lang is the main man, and honestly Scott Lang was a way better Ant-Man than Hank Pym was. Hank Pym being finished as a hero was Shooter's original intent with that saga. He felt the character was redundant and useless, and he wanted to give him a sendoff and do a good story that brought closure and fit in with all stories that went before that.

[Huntsman Spider]

Originally Slott brought it up in another context than about the marriage. But yeah, while I disagree with that, I do think the Avengers being this special team is not good for the Marvel Universe, and it doesn't work if there's this weird class bias where street heroes are somehow looked down upon for not being Avengers. That's fine if it's there among fans, but this has seeped in the mainstream Marvel universe too and it stinks. In real-life we don't insult first-responders and paramedics and others because they aren't part of the US Marine Corps. We don't see this in DC...I mean in the Justice League nobody looks down on the Question or other street-heroes because they aren't Superman, mostly because Superman is also a street-hero himself, helping local and everyday problems, with nothing and no one being beneath his pay-grade.

The truth is that while the stated position of the Avengers was "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", in actual fact the Avengers were a dumping ground for rejects and leftovers. It was the team for characters who largely couldn't carry a title who weren't being used much and so on. It had ridiculous turnover and roster changes. The Avengers were for most of its history, a team of trash-babies. One of my favorite Avengers issues "The Faithful Servant" (The Avengers #280, by Roger Stern) captures that, with Jarvis reflecting: "There have been so many Avengers over the years. Some stayed so briefly, it is hard to even remember them. Hercules, the Beast, the Falcon, Hellcat, poor Ms. Marvel...I tried to serve them all well, to make their stays as pleasant as possible. After all. The life of an Avenger is not easy." By the way if you want a single issue that tells you concisely and effectively the entire history of the Avengers, "The faithful servant" is it. Stern was a master of using continuity in a way that felt in-character and not expository and showing heroes from the perspective of regular people, which humanizes them.

Then you know there's that famous 2-Parter which Stern wrote (he wrote Avengers and ASM at the same time as this), where Spider-Man auditions to be an Avenger but is turned down, and Spider-Man calls them out in Avengers #236. "Hey, I'm Spider-Man, Remember? I was sticking to walls when you guys were still looking for a clubhouse, I'm no green rookie!" I mean it's true, Spider-Man was active before the formation of the Avengers. He is their senior and veteran. Part of the reason why Mark Millar was allowed license to show the Ultimates in Ultimate Marvel as essentially awful human beings is that he was allowed to do so. Whereas Bendis didn't have license for Ultimate Peter to go that far.



It's a version of Hank Pym that doesn't really exist in the comics. It's one the cartoons have made. The MCU is faithful at least in that Hank Pym is finished as a hero and that Scott Lang is the main man, and honestly Scott Lang was a way better Ant-Man than Hank Pym was. Hank Pym being finished as a hero was Shooter's original intent with that saga. He felt the character was redundant and useless, and he wanted to give him a sendoff and do a good story that brought closure and fit in with all stories that went before that.

All good points, and I will have to check those comics out sometime. As for Mark Millar being allowed to show the version of the Avengers depicted in Ultimate Marvel as awful excuses for human beings, considering what went down in the oft-lamented and rightfully condemned Avengers #200 and how it was addressed by Chris Claremont in Avengers Annual #10 . . .

[Revolutionary_Jack]

All good points, and I will have to check those comics out sometime. As for Mark Millar being allowed to show the version of the Avengers depicted in Ultimate Marvel as awful excuses for human beings, considering what went down in the oft-lamented and rightfully condemned Avengers #200 and how it was addressed by Chris Claremont in Avengers Annual #10 . . .

The latter was genuine incompetence and bad writing with nobody stopping once to think what that goofy time travel story actually implied outside of a locked-room mystery. The stuff with Ultimate Marvel was intended to make them awful.

And as for Claremont calling them out, good on him, but he's not without sin himself considering he wanted to make Kitty/Colossus happen when she was 14 which Jim Shooter said, "No, just no" to.

[Huntsman Spider]

The latter was genuine incompetence and bad writing with nobody stopping once to think what that goofy time travel story actually implied outside of a locked-room mystery. The stuff with Ultimate Marvel was intended to make them awful.

And as for Claremont calling them out, good on him, but he's not without sin himself considering he wanted to make Kitty/Colossus happen when she was 14 which Jim Shooter said, "No, just no" to.

Genuine incompetence and bad writing, yes, along with more troubling implications, because that was supposed to be Carol Danvers's sendoff and happy ending, as far as the writers and editors were concerned at the time. And yes, Kittylossus was all kinds of problematic, but because it was by the great Chris Claremont (no sarcasm intended, he really was/is great), the nostalgia-chasers/baiters kept bringing it back in contemporary comics, though both of them were adults by that point, so . . .

[Grim Fandango]

Bring back Ultimate Jessica.

[Huntsman Spider]

Bring back Ultimate Jessica.

Excellent cover, and I fully agree with you. Ultimate Jessica Drew was spectacular.

[Digifiend]

Well you never know. If 1610 is indeed going to be used again... all they need to do is have her use whatever mechanic Miles will be using (perhaps the portal from Spider-Men and Spider-Men II?).

[WebLurker]

Excellent cover, and I fully agree with you. Ultimate Jessica Drew was spectacular.

Yeah, I wish that she'd been the second Spider character, not Miles. (Of course, then, we wouldn't've gotten the Spider-Verse movie, so things do even out.)

[Digifiend]

She still wouldn't have carried over to 616, Bendis was told there was already too many Spider-Women (Gwen, Jessica and Silk all had solos at the time). If Miles didn't exist we'd just have one less Spider-Man comic.

[Beaddle]

The Ultimate Universe overstayed its welcome. I never understood Marvel's obsession to create another universe to compete with the 616 universe. The House of M universe was more interesting than the ultimate universe.