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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    While I'm not as fond of King as I used to be in light of everything surrounding HiC and what I hear about the remainder of his Batman run (though respectively: I can sense DiDio's hand in the former, and intend to trade wait the latter anyway, just lost interest in singles), using Andrea as the villain in this series is fucking awesome.

    She is long overdue to be included in the main DCU, she's the best DCAU villain after Harley. And I hope they keep the film as is canon, including the Joker stuff. And maybe off some reasoning why she hasn't come back to try killing him again (or maybe that's what is in store?)
    Technically, she never really had any beef with Batman or was intending to kill him, she was only after the Joker and the mobsters, so once that job was done, she leaves.

    Something I really loved about the movie, is how bittersweet the ending of it all is, that for all intents and purposes, Andrea wins, she (as far as the movie is concerned) kills Joker and everyone else in that mob is dead, but then realizes how lost she is with no real other goal or drive to thrive for. Meanwhile while Batman loses, unable to save Joker or Andrea, he still has his mission he continues to fight for, and the film doesn't really say if thats good or bad, it just is.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Technically, she never really had any beef with Batman or was intending to kill him, she was only after the Joker and the mobsters, so once that job was done, she leaves.
    Yeah, Batman never even directly fights the Phantasm aside from, what I recall, a brief tackle.

    Andrea just unintentionally screwed Bruce over when her murders ended up getting pinned on Batman.
    Something I really loved about the movie, is how bittersweet the ending of it all is, that for all intents and purposes, Andrea wins, she (as far as the movie is concerned) kills Joker and everyone else in that mob is dead, but then realizes how lost she is with no real other goal or drive to thrive for. Meanwhile while Batman loses, unable to save Joker or Andrea, he still has his mission he continues to fight for, and the film doesn't really say if thats good or bad, it just is.
    I think the point of Andrea is that even her ultimate "win" is also ultimately her loss because of how much her obsession with revenge has hollowed and consumed her, and nowhere is that futility more embodied then in the fact that she wasn't able to actually kill Joker (which even by then I think most people would probably be aware of with how much Joker survived situations no one could have on B:TAS by that point).

    Batman at least still had the fulfillment of the mission, despite it also costing him his own happiness, but I think we're still meant to view it more positively then what Andrea's dark feelings turned her into.

    It kind of reminds me of how in Under the Red Hood Batman "won" by ensuring that everyone lost.

  3. #48
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolf36 View Post
    Batman: The Animated Series has added a bunch of characters to the mainstream DCU with Harley Quinn, Lock-Up, Sewer King, Gray Ghost, Roxy Rocket, Veronica Vreeland and now Phantasm. I think Red Claw is the only one left that hasn't made it in that i would like to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolf36 View Post
    I believe he was. So Condiment King, Kyodi Ken, Nora Fries and Renee Montoya who was created for the show but appeared in comics first all came from Batman: The Animated Series as well.
    Want Calendar Girl to be introduced as she is more interesting than her male counterpart from the comics, is very relevant currently, the changing seasons motif is cool, and in the absence of the Gotham City Sirens being villains, we need characters to replace them.

  4. #49
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the point of Andrea is that even her ultimate "win" is also ultimately her loss because of how much her obsession with revenge has hollowed and consumed her, and nowhere is that futility more embodied then in the fact that she wasn't able to actually kill Joker (which even by then I think most people would probably be aware of with how much Joker survived situations no one could have on B:TAS by that point).
    Also, if the movie is entirely canon, then Selina managed two things Andrea desired at one point or the other - get Bruce to propose to her and kill the Joker.

    Like Andrea, Selina made a similar choice when it came to the first but she actually managed to accomplish the latter while Andrea failed. This actually increases the number of parallels and I wonder how it affects Andrea. Her perspective on Selina and her actions should be nothing short of interesting.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Technically, she never really had any beef with Batman or was intending to kill him, she was only after the Joker and the mobsters, so once that job was done, she leaves.
    The job wasn't done though, as the later DCAU showed the Joker survived. The tie in comics offered an explanation that she didn't view the Joker as the same man who killed her father, but I always found that unsatisfying. He's killed a LOT of people since then, and continues to make Bruce miserable, you'd think that'd be motive enough to come and finish the job, but it seems to be an example of the Joker's plot armor. Plus she probably wants to avoid Bruce.

    Phantasm was originally meant to be the finale of BTAS, so in the context of the movie the Joker is dead and she accomplishes her goal. But then they ended up continuing with TNBA. The Joker being alive isn't strange, he's cheated death before, but they sort of had to ignore Andrea and her motives to get it to work.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The job wasn't done though, as the later DCAU showed the Joker survived. The tie in comics offered an explanation that she didn't view the Joker as the same man who killed her father, but I always found that unsatisfying. He's killed a LOT of people since then, and continues to make Bruce miserable, you'd think that'd be motive enough to come and finish the job, but it seems to be an example of the Joker's plot armor. Plus she probably wants to avoid Bruce.

    Phantasm was originally meant to be the finale of BTAS, so in the context of the movie the Joker is dead and she accomplishes her goal. But then they ended up continuing with TNBA. The Joker being alive isn't strange, he's cheated death before, but they sort of had to ignore Andrea and her motives to get it to work.
    It's the same thing like in the Batman/Superman animated movie, in the context of the story Joker is supposed to be dead, but of course still comes back later anyway. So looking at it as an individual narrative I consider it as him being dead, but as a part of the bigger universe, then yeah its just him slipping away last minute as usual.

    I don't think Joker is gonna be her motivation of coming back into play, mainly because King's done a good job of not overusing the Joker, so suddenly making him the primary threat at the tail end of his story seems less likely to me. I am curious what they could do in order to get her involved, and we know it won't be as simple as just "scorned ex seeking vengeance"
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  7. #52
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I don't think Joker is gonna be her motivation of coming back into play, mainly because King's done a good job of not overusing the Joker, so suddenly making him the primary threat at the tail end of his story seems less likely to me. I am curious what they could do in order to get her involved, and we know it won't be as simple as just "scorned ex seeking vengeance"
    Well, Selina did manage to kill (a)Joker on top of ditching Bruce at the altar so I think she would catch Andrea's interest. I think Catwoman being the reason for the Phantasm's return instead of Batman or the Joker would be a more interesting way to go about it.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    ...the return? Was Phantasm ever introduced in comic book continuity? I thought she was exclusive to the DCAU?
    Phantasm (Beaumont ... you know, I don't think Danny Chase is going to show up here telepathically ghost-trolling Bruce) I think has only ever been a character seen in background cameos. I don't think there's ever been a story told with her, there was just "artist draws every Batman villain they can think of". I'm pretty thrilled about this as it's perhaps the first Rebirth Holistic Inclusion in the main Bat-books in quite a while - compared to like, Rebirth Green Arrow, Flash or Supergirl, which smartly incorporated so many elements of the non-comics media out there.

    Plus her costume design has always been killer. And there's always room in Bruce's backstory for this to not be shocking as a canon inclusion. We'll just have to start lists of Bruce's serious girlfriends with Andrea back there with Julie Madison and Linda Page and such.
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  9. #54
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    I think the point of Andrea is that even her ultimate "win" is also ultimately her loss because of how much her obsession with revenge has hollowed and consumed her, and nowhere is that futility more embodied then in the fact that she wasn't able to actually kill Joker (which even by then I think most people would probably be aware of with how much Joker survived situations no one could have on B:TAS by that point).

    Batman at least still had the fulfillment of the mission, despite it also costing him his own happiness, but I think we're still meant to view it more positively then what Andrea's dark feelings turned her into.
    This is exactly the sort of stuff that the ending was really about.

    Andrea maybe sort of won, but at the cost of her soul. She lost long ago.

    Batman...his great fate, his good and worthy mission...comes at a price.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 06-16-2019 at 04:54 PM.
    Thank you AMericA for votinG for chAnge.

  10. #55
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Eh, maybe. Like you, I don't really care that much, especially since it's a better story than a lot of canon material.

    I can't really think of a way it would interfere with anything if the broad strokes were carried over, though. What would it contradict?
    To me a good story trumps any issues I have with canon unless it's something earth shatteringly contradictory. Something like Mask of the Phantasm feels like it can fit pretty easily in Batman's canon.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  11. #56
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Imagine if Matt Reeves adapted Mask of the Phantasm as one of his Bat-films and cast Kristen Stewart as the Phantasm opposite Battinson.

    Honestly speaking tho, the story would finally make the monies at the box office that it deserves.

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