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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    From my understanding, while "gay" and "queer" both started out as pejorative terms for the same thing, when used in a positive context now they are distinctly different. Someone who is gay is definitely gay--not straight, not bi. Someone who is queer can be gay, bi, straight, trans or a whole range of other things. It's a way to have a label without putting someone into a box and saying they are this and only this. So Wonder Woman is queer--of course, she is. I would go so far as to say every super-hero is queer, because they are outside the box. Maybe some people object to queer being used for straight folks--but there are a lot of folks who are straight yet have out of the ordinary relationships. Such as Dr. Marston, who was queer the way I see it.
    If "queer" can mean anything doesn't it actually mean nothing? No offense, but as someone who studies different cultures, such an ill-defined term (as you've outlined it) seems frankly useless and counterproductive.
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  2. #17
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    It's useful, because a lot of the people who are queer don't want to have confining labels put on them, so it's a way to avoid labels while still being part of a community. The other Q is for questioning, which I always thought is a bit wishy-washy.
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  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's useful, because a lot of the people who are queer don't want to have confining labels put on them, so it's a way to avoid labels while still being part of a community. The other Q is for questioning, which I always thought is a bit wishy-washy.
    If you say so. Any label is a label. By its very nature, a label identifies something even if people believe it is a non-label if they want to be identified by such a term it is thus a label. Take color for example if you are a color you reflect visible light rather than absorb it so you are still part of that group or label (true black absorbs light and thus is not an actual color but rather it is the absence of color and some things do not reflect visible light at all). If labels, however, are too loose they lose any classification application. Take the following - all serpents are snakes but there are many subtypes and even several categories of snakes so simply identifying them all as serpents is of little practical use.

    Who knows, maybe this bothers me so much simply because I hate unclear language and especially overly broad terms.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-17-2019 at 05:25 PM.
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  4. #19
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer

    Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities who are not heterosexual or are not cisgender.
    That's how I use the term, and how the term is used in academic contexts. "Queer studies", etc

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer

    That's how I use the term, and how the term is used in academic contexts. "Queer studies", etc
    I've never been a proponent of umbrella terms (such as "People of Color"), as they lump too many often distinct groups in together which can easily cause confusion, but to each their own.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-17-2019 at 06:27 PM.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer
    Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities who are not heterosexual or are not cisgender.
    That's how I use the term, and how the term is used in academic contexts. "Queer studies", etc
    My problem with this is that let's say you're a transvestite, but you're heterosexual and you don't identify as a female. Or what if you're into polyamory? Or what if you enjoy BDSM? Or what if you're a furry? It seems like you're being excluded from the LGBTQ community, because you're straight when it comes to one specific function, yet your actions are the sort that would be condemned by extreme conservatives as profane, just like all the other people in the LGBTQ community. So it leaves those people without anyone to stand up for them, just because of this one little thing that is supposedly heterosexual, yet they're not exactly vanilla.
    Last edited by Jim Kelly; 06-18-2019 at 05:28 AM.
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I disagree it is because the method used was far more subtle than that used today and thus I argue more effective. I have nothing against political messages in fantasy I simply prefer them to be allegoric and not be hamfisted. Such messages should blend seamlessly with the plot. I fear after reading the interview the message here will be as subtle as a club to the head. Time will tell if my fears are realized.
    Allegory is just another literary technique, and can be used just as subtle or as hamfisted as any other literary technique. And depending on the setup of the work and what it is trying to say, allegory can both be a help or a detriment, and sometimes both at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Edit - Just let the Amazons be Amazons there is no need to constantly mention/overtly reinforce that they are lesbians which is what I fear might happen in the movie. Let their actions speak for them.
    If that is what you want, then definitely yes. I want the Amazons to be shown on camera with romantic or sexual relations with each other. I don't give much for the Rowling style of diversity (where Dumbledore is declared to be gay in an interview).

    But Diana grew up in a society that effectively had no genders, no classes, and no state. To her same-sex relations should be as natural as the air. It didn't really bother me that WW17 didn't go there much, the film had enough of things to do, Diana had enough of a culture shock in any case, and they did make one awesome joke out of it. But in 1984? It is something that needs to be included much more prominently, and given the presence of the "Silence = Death" poster, it seems that the AIDS crisis and the gay movement will have a real place in the movie.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'll likely take some backlash for this but oh what the hell. I hate when contemporary politics of any sort are overtly inserted into sci-fi or fantasy movies/tv shows. Please, writers and directors, use allegory instead of a "ripped from the headlines" approach to get your subtext across because this is escapism not true to life drama.
    Almost every Batman comic has the message of "the ultra wealthy and the police can be a force for good in society" but apparently having a queer main character is just too damn political?

    I don't disagree that having LGBT or Muslim main characters is political in today's context but that doesn't make other mainstream superhero comics "non-political". And Wonder Woman is no exception.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Captain America's first issue had him punching Hitler in the face. It's fair to say that there's always been a fair bit of overt messaging in comics

    There's a ton of examples of overt messaging in the genre's past. The Twilight Zone would just have Rod Serling straight up come out to tell you what the message of the episode was.
    I agree there has always been a bit of politics in comics but pointing the Cap punching Hitler thing is always a little disingenuous given Kirby and Simon said it was about marketing they thought it would sell.
    Last edited by Jokerz79; 06-20-2019 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Allegory is just another literary technique, and can be used just as subtle or as hamfisted as any other literary technique. And depending on the setup of the work and what it is trying to say, allegory can both be a help or a detriment, and sometimes both at the same time.



    If that is what you want, then definitely yes. I want the Amazons to be shown on camera with romantic or sexual relations with each other. I don't give much for the Rowling style of diversity (where Dumbledore is declared to be gay in an interview).

    But Diana grew up in a society that effectively had no genders, no classes, and no state. To her same-sex relations should be as natural as the air. It didn't really bother me that WW17 didn't go there much, the film had enough of things to do, Diana had enough of a culture shock in any case, and they did make one awesome joke out of it. But in 1984? It is something that needs to be included much more prominently, and given the presence of the "Silence = Death" poster, it seems that the AIDS crisis and the gay movement will have a real place in the movie.
    I have no problem with this as long as it fits smoothly into the narrative. I prefer subtlety, but that's just my view of things.

    I hate when people come right out an say something in an interview as well. Let the work speak for itself don't tell people rather show them. I often worry creatives (writers, actors, and directors) just do such to score brownie points rather than for any nobler reasons.

    Edit - At the very least Diana should always be portrayed as bisexual. Such a status only makes sense given her cultural upbringing.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-18-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    Almost every Batman comic has the message of "the ultra wealthy and the police can be a force for good in society" but apparently having a queer main character is just too damn political?....
    There are also many examples of corrupt cops and evil wealthy people in the Batman mythos, movies or otherwise, it is balanced more or less. What I'm saying is it isn't shown a universal truth in-universe.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-18-2019 at 02:30 PM.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    There are also many examples of corrupt cops and evil wealthy people in the Batman mythos, movies or otherwise, it is balanced more or less. What I'm saying is it isn't shown a universal truth in-universe.
    Those examples don't get nearly the same page time as Batman or Jim Gordon, the two main good guys of almost every Batman story. And that's political, even if it's not aggressive (that's mainly because the politics behind this are considered normal so people don't think it's making a big statement).

    Wonder Woman being queer is saying that queer people are normal and can be forces for good in the world. That's political in a homophobic world yes but that's the fault of people for being homophobic, not queer people for wanting representation in superhero comics.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    Those examples don't get nearly the same page time as Batman or Jim Gordon, the two main good guys of almost every Batman story. And that's political, even if it's not aggressive (that's mainly because the politics behind this are considered normal so people don't think it's making a big statement).

    Wonder Woman being queer is saying that queer people are normal and can be forces for good in the world. That's political in a homophobic world yes but that's the fault of people for being homophobic, not queer people for wanting representation in superhero comics.
    I don't agree with you. Two Face and Black Skull are two examples of powerful people who become corrupt.

    I don't think you understand what my problem is. It isn't with WW being "Queer" (I still contend this term is too broad to be of any use) rather it is with what the Director said, her approach. I'm a big fan of show don't tell. Let your work speak for itself. Be subtle and use allegory instead of bluntly hitting people over the head with your message.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-19-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Did Patty Jenkins say something about the movie? What was the quote? Everything I've seen from her, she's been pretty closed-mouth about what happens in the picture. Not that I want to know what happens--I can wait to see the actual movie. But a director has a difficult job these days in managing the social media promotion for their movie, on which the pictures depend for bringing in audiences, without giving away the whole movie. I think Jenkins is a show don't tell director--but she has to say something to drive the campaign for the movie. It would be wrong to single her out for doing that, when it's expected of every director that they push their movie. In fact, if they don't, they're criticized for failing to promote the picture.

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    The Twilight Zone was good because it used allegory rather than the actual thing it was referencing. Sure, Serling gave narration at the end of each episode but it never had Soviet agents take the place of aliens for example.

    As for the Sups punching Hitler I've never been a fan of cheesy WW II era comics for that reason.

    Edit - Just let the Amazons be Amazons there is no need to constantly mention/overtly reinforce that they are lesbians which is what I fear might happen in the movie. Let their actions speak for them.
    Good luck with Amazons being Amazons. They will never do it because of China and other international markets. That is why they simply mention LGBT than show it like Hetrosexuality

    However they could do more in comins

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