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  1. #46
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    Well there's metaphor and there's literal truth. As a metaphor, Wonder Woman's story works because she's going against authority to go after who and what she loves. You don't need to be literally the same as Wonder Woman to apply the metaphor to yourself. Queer folk sometimes have to defy their parents to love someone they are not supposed to love.

    If you want everything to work on a literal level, then I guess Wonder Woman has to be literally gay and she can't love both men and women. I think Wonder Woman is more like Miranda in Shakespeare's THE TEMPEST, when upon seeing men from the outside world for the first time, she exclaims, "O, brave new world that has such people in it." Steve represents for Diana what Ferdinand represents for Miranda--another world she has never known and that by nature she needs to know and experience.

  2. #47
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Pretty sure the people who want a queer Diana would be happy with a bisexual or pansexual Diana.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Well there's metaphor and there's literal truth. As a metaphor, Wonder Woman's story works because she's going against authority to go after who and what she loves. You don't need to be literally the same as Wonder Woman to apply the metaphor to yourself. Queer folk sometimes have to defy their parents to love someone they are not supposed to love.

    If you want everything to work on a literal level, then I guess Wonder Woman has to be literally gay and she can't love both men and women. I think Wonder Woman is more like Miranda in Shakespeare's THE TEMPEST, when upon seeing men from the outside world for the first time, she exclaims, "O, brave new world that has such people in it." Steve represents for Diana what Ferdinand represents for Miranda--another world she has never known and that by nature she needs to know and experience.
    Thank you for summing up the situation perfectly. Often times using metaphor or allegory are more effective than being literal. I fear that contemporary authors of fantasy and sci-fi (expect Jordan Peele who is great at doing so) have forgotten how to use this storytelling tool.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-26-2019 at 10:29 AM.
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  4. #49
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    The real question is how it'd affect story writing. IE, what would the writers do with it? I would guess, little if anything. Would they write her making out with Kasia? no of course not. More likely she'll continue in a semi-romantic relationship with Steve.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    we are not going to see WW openly bi in the movies any time soon. Parents of young kids would riot. WB/DC don't need this.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    we are not going to see WW openly bi in the movies any time soon. Parents of young kids would riot. WB/DC don't need this.
    Probably true, but not necessarily. The Chinese market would definitely have a problem with it, and that'd be a major concern for the studio (and likely the main reason it wont happen), but in the States it could be spun to the film's benefit. There's plenty of people who would take issue with it, but also plenty of people who would support the film even more.

    If the domestic BO were the only consideration I could see WB *maybe* having Diana be openly bi. Southern/conservative states might see a low turn out but more liberal regions would see an increase and this would generate a ton of hype and attention. But China makes it pretty damn unlikely to happen.
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  7. #52
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    A lot of movies and TV shows have no problem with including gay characters. In fact, they want to be more inclusive because this wins them points with audiences--including parents that want to provide positive role models for their kids. So I don't think it's a problem with the sexuality itself in family friendly movies--even Disney does it! I think it's a problem with Wonder Woman--because they are overly concerned with what image to present of the character and they don't want to lose her value as a merchandising icon. But I think she's already a gay icon (and has been for a long time) and that moves a lot of T-shirts and tiaras. They just don't want to broadcast it too loudly to China's Politburo.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    A lot of movies and TV shows have no problem with including gay characters. In fact, they want to be more inclusive because this wins them points with audiences--including parents that want to provide positive role models for their kids. So I don't think it's a problem with the sexuality itself in family friendly movies--even Disney does it! I think it's a problem with Wonder Woman--because they are overly concerned with what image to present of the character and they don't want to lose her value as a merchandising icon. But I think she's already a gay icon (and has been for a long time) and that moves a lot of T-shirts and tiaras. They just don't want to broadcast it too loudly to China's Politburo.
    Or segments in America (as well as other nations) that haven't caught up with the rest of us yet. Lot of homophobia out there, from Texas to Jamaica to China and places in between. And while that's not really a hurdle for most movies, this isn't most movies. This is Wonder Woman, and she's one of the biggest pop culture icons there is. WB has more riding on her brand than just a movie's box office.

    I mean, speaking from my ideals.....to hell with those bigots, let Diana be openly bi in the movie! It'd be a fantastic move and I can just about imagine the reaction from young people struggling with their sexuality....and I want to see that look of joy on their faces when they finally get some superhero representation.

    But if I were a WB exec.....being responsible for all that money and all those jobs.....I can see why they wouldn't want to gamble with a multi-million dollar investment that could net them a billion (plus a sequel, merchandise, etc). And I can just about imagine the reaction from homophobic people.....and that's a blowback I would want to carefully consider before pulling the trigger on bi Diana. I'd need enough market research to prove the risk won't pull the film down.
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  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Some of you might find my latest fanfic "Heroes of Themyscira" interesting. The story is set in an alternate universe in which baby Superman is raised on Themyscira. It will contain extensive content about Amazon society and family life in the early chapters. The series will give insight into how I would write the Wonder Woman 1984. Let the Amazons be Amazons -

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1332733...-of-Themyscira
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  10. #55
    All-New Member Circe's Avatar
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    Whew... seeing some fans of an extremely feminist character clutch their pearls at the idea of Diana, or the fictional single-sex society which she is from that has none of our cultural/moral hang ups about sex, be openly lesbian or bisexual (not a fan of the term queer but to each their own), is... interesting to say the least. I’m a gay man and a fan of comics, so I’m aware that many fans are regressive on a lot of issues, but I really did think this character would be one with a more tolerant fan base given what she’s supposed to represent. (And the idea of a Greek-inspired warrior woman who lives exclusively with other women and worships Aphrodite and Artemis among others, being heterosexual is what’s ridiculous here imo) This isn’t an attack on everyone, just a general observation based on some responses I’ve read here.

    In regard to the “politicization of superheroes,” a recurring theme I see in these kinds of threads elsewhere and discussions among fans... two things: 1) politics has always been a part of art and comic books are not the exception. Comics have served historically as wartime propaganda but also at other times (and sometimes concurrently) as a medium that champions progressive causes. You can easily find examples of Superman comics that are pro-immigrant and anti-racist (didn’t he have a whole storyline taking on the KKK?)... Wonder Woman herself beat Hitler up lol. The X-Men and civil rights, Superman being created by Jewish men at that time, Batman and guns... Like these are political things (especially today, but they also were at the time... let’s not kid ourselves!)
    Personally I would argue that the depoliticization of comic books is what has defanged the medium in a lot of ways. That’s another discussion. But let’s not give any credence to the idea that Wonder Woman especially is somehow a non-political character.

    Secondly... just want to say, the idea that Diana being bisexual is one of these examples of politicization, is homophobic. Full stop. I’m new here and don’t know the culture of this forum, so I hope I’m not breaking a rule saying this, but I’m not gonna pull any punches on this. I’ve seen homophobic rhetoric before and claiming that showing gay people existing in media is “politics” IS homophobia.
    Last edited by Circe; 07-09-2019 at 05:15 PM.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    Whew... seeing some fans of an extremely feminist character clutch their pearls at the idea of Diana, or the fictional single-sex society which she is from that has none of our cultural/moral hang ups about sex, be openly lesbian or bisexual (not a fan of the term queer but to each their own), is... interesting to say the least. Iím a gay man and a fan of comics, so Iím aware that many fans are regressive on a lot of issues, but I really did think this character would be one with a more tolerant fan base given what sheís supposed to represent. (And the idea of a Greek-inspired warrior woman who lives exclusively with other women and worships Aphrodite and Artemis among others, being heterosexual is whatís ridiculous here imo) This isnít an attack on everyone, just a general observation based on some responses Iíve read here.

    In regard to the ďpoliticization of superheroes,Ē a recurring theme I see in these kinds of threads elsewhere and discussions among fans... two things: 1) politics has always been a part of art and comic books are not the exception. Comics have served historically as wartime propaganda but also at other times (and sometimes concurrently) as a medium that champions progressive causes. You can easily find examples of Superman comics that are pro-immigrant and anti-racist (didnít he have a whole storyline taking on the KKK?)... Wonder Woman herself beat Hitler up lol. The X-Men and civil rights, Superman being created by Jewish men at that time, Batman and guns... Like these are political things (especially today, but they also were at the time... letís not kid ourselves!)
    Personally I would argue that the depoliticization of comic books is what has defanged the medium in a lot of ways. Thatís another discussion. But letís not give any credence to the idea that Wonder Woman especially is somehow a non-political character.

    Secondly... just want to say, the idea that Diana being bisexual is one of these examples of politicization, is homophobic. Full stop. Iím new here and donít know the culture of this forum, so I hope Iím not breaking a rule saying this, but Iím not gonna pull any punches on this. Iíve seen homophobic rhetoric before and claiming that showing gay people existing in media is ďpoliticsĒ IS homophobia.
    Welcome to the forums! Hope you find it enjoyable here.

    Superman fought the KKK in....I believe, the radio serial. I think (and could be wrong here) that it was adapted to comics several years later.....possibly after the klan had lost most of its teeth. A lot of posters know their history better than I do though. There was also supposed to be a recent (or yet to be released) book, a young adult or kid graphic novel, called Superman Smashes the Klan, but I haven't heard anything about that in a while.

    As for the meat of your post, for the most part I have found this forum to be pretty accepting and open minded. There's some few posts that're pretty horrible, but for the most part I think the people here are usually really solid, even when I'm arguing with them about fictional adults wearing their underwear outside their tights.

    Hopefully you find it so as well. And know that while discussions can get heated, it is very rarely personal; most of us are just passionate and love debating. It's all in good fun (most of the time anyway ).
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  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    ....Secondly... just want to say, the idea that Diana being bisexual is one of these examples of politicization, is homophobic. Full stop. I’m new here and don’t know the culture of this forum, so I hope I’m not breaking a rule saying this, but I’m not gonna pull any punches on this. I’ve seen homophobic rhetoric before and claiming that showing gay people existing in media is “politics” IS homophobia.
    While I agree with most of what you said I can't agree with this statement. A blanket indictment of any group's supposed motive or motives is wrong and shortsighted. For example, there are comic book fans who are simply apolitical and don't want politics of any kind injected into their books such a stance doesn't make them homophobes. Another group of fans (including myself) prefer subtlely over overt storytelling this does not make them homophobes.

    For the record, I've always thought Diana is mostly likely bisexual it just makes sense given her culture. What I am referencing here is more the fact I think the new movie should let the Amazons' actions speak for themselves nothing more nothing less.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-11-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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  13. #58
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Homophobia is not always a matter of conscious intent. Often the opposite. There are many things in modern society that are homophobic that people do without any sort of conscious thoughts of homophobia. But lack of intent does not equate to lack of impact.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Homophobia is not always a matter of conscious intent. Often the opposite. There are many things in modern society that are homophobic that people do without any sort of conscious thoughts of homophobia. But lack of intent does not equate to lack of impact.
    I still think some people just want their fantasy fiction to have subtle political messages embedded within (if any political messages at all), a person does not have to be homophobic to flee this way. I'm a big proponent of gun control but I can understand why someone wouldn't want a superhero to foil a school shooting by a group of teens then give a lecture about real-world school shooters. A suitable allegory is always preferable to a ripped from the headlines approach when fantasy is involved.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-11-2019 at 11:42 PM.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I still think some people just want their fantasy fiction to have subtle political messages embedded within (if any political messages at all), a person does not have to be homophobic to flee this way. I'm a big proponent of gun control but I can understand why someone wouldn't want a superhero to foil a school shooting by a group of teens then give a lecture about real-world school shooters. A suitable allegory is always preferable to a ripped from the headlines approach when fantasy is involved.
    The point is that framing the depiction of a character as bisexual as a political statement implicitly figures the validity of queer sexualities as something that's up for debate. That's what's homophobic about it.

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