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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I still think some people just want their fantasy fiction to have subtle political messages embedded within (if any political messages at all), a person does not have to be homophobic to flee this way. I'm a big proponent of gun control but I can understand why someone wouldn't want a superhero to foil a school shooting by a group of teens then give a lecture about real-world school shooters. A suitable allegory is always preferable to a ripped from the headlines approach when fantasy is involved.
    Clumsy storytelling can be done via allegory too.

    Also, the idea about just wanting "subtle political messages" is one that comes up now and again. There are really two elements there. The less important is arguably how subtle (or blatant) the messaging is. Two things are much more important: first if the reader agrees with the political (or equivalent) message, second how much the reader is willing to accept messages they don't agree with in stories.

    It is something you can train up as a reader, both by reading widely and by gaining knowledge in political ideology and discourse. All good things, to me.
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  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    The point is that framing the depiction of a character as bisexual as a political statement implicitly figures the validity of queer sexualities as something that's up for debate. That's what's homophobic about it.
    You're right, in which case certain creatives should stop using it in such a way. J/K thought I'd have a little fun as this thread has become far starker than I intended.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-12-2019 at 10:29 AM.
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  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Clumsy storytelling can be done via allegory too.

    Also, the idea about just wanting "subtle political messages" is one that comes up now and again. There are really two elements there. The less important is arguably how subtle (or blatant) the messaging is. Two things are much more important: first if the reader agrees with the political (or equivalent) message, second how much the reader is willing to accept messages they don't agree with in stories.

    It is something you can train up as a reader, both by reading widely and by gaining knowledge in political ideology and discourse. All good things, to me.
    See Night of the Living Dead (1968) as a top-notch example of an effective allegoric story about racism. The hero is an African American man and the groups hunting the zombies are little better than lynch mobs. If those who made the film instead had the groups hunting the zombies be literal members of the KKK the story would have lacked its power due to being too blatant given the social/political environment of the day.

    You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you craft a skillful enough allegory you can make those who are resistant to your message perhaps reconsider their position.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-12-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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  4. #64
    All-New Member Circe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    While I agree with most of what you said I can't agree with this statement. A blanket indictment of any group's supposed motive or motives is wrong and shortsighted. For example, there are comic book fans who are simply apolitical and don't want politics of any kind injected into their books such a stance doesn't make them homophobes. Another group of fans (including myself) prefer subtlely over overt storytelling this does not make them homophobes.

    For the record, I've always thought Diana is mostly likely bisexual it just makes sense given her culture. What I am referencing here is more the fact I think the new movie should let the Amazons' actions speak for themselves nothing more nothing less.
    There’s no such thing as “apolitical.” Unwillingness to engage in certain topics for fear that they’re too political is in and of itself a judgment and action on the topic at hand. I’m not saying we need to shoehorn every possible issue into every story to be on the right side of social justice, but actively avoiding any uncomfortable topics and concepts, even in superhero media, is not somehow an apolitical approach. “Not taking a side” is taking a side when it comes to these issues.

    If the status quo is “no LGBT superheroes,” then the “neutral” position is siding with the status quo. I get what you’re saying about subtlety and good storytelling, but there’s a difference between showing that “Diana is a hero and bisexual” and implying that the Amazons (and presumably Diana too, at least while she lived among them) as a single-sex culture, are likely heavily homosexual. One of these can be considered positive representation of a marginalized group, and the other can be waved away by those who are actively anti-LGBT. I’m not a fan of plausible deniability when it comes to representation.

  5. #65
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Deleted a bunch of messages.

    You want to discuss why you or others 'hate' a particular group of readers, take it elsewhere.
    Gaelforce
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  6. #66
    It's no dream... I'm real Silver Phoenix's Avatar
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    The thing is, comic book characters change with just about every writer.

    She'll be straight one decade, bisexual the next and then probably asexual for while after that.

    Patty Jenkins seems to be going for a "straight" Diana, which appeals to a wider audience right now. Some hetero parents may not want to take their kids to see Diana possibly being romantic with or kissing another woman. There are people who do want to see scenes of that nature and you have plenty that do.

    The next director may give a queer portrayal of Diana... it may be a popular portrayal, it may be mixed.

    Point is, you can't satisfy everybody today, someone will always be offended.

    I just want to see Diana kick butt and save the day; I personally don't need to see her pine over anyone but that's just me.
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  7. #67
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Phoenix View Post
    I personally don't need to see her pine over anyone...
    Pun intended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Phoenix View Post
    Patty Jenkins seems to be going for a "straight" Diana...
    The only romance featuring Diana so far is a hetero one yes, but Diana also pointed out in the first film that men weren't essential when it came to sexual pleasure.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 07-14-2019 at 03:17 AM.

  8. #68
    All-New Member Circe's Avatar
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    Just so we’re clear... bisexual means that people can be into anyone of any gender (or lack thereof.) Diana being with Steve does not make her straight. A bi person doesn’t stop being bi when they’re with someone of the opposite gender lol.
    Patty Jenkins is pursuing the Steve romance but that does not mean she’s going for “heterosexual Diana.”

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I still think some people just want their fantasy fiction to have subtle political messages embedded within (if any political messages at all), a person does not have to be homophobic to flee this way. I'm a big proponent of gun control but I can understand why someone wouldn't want a superhero to foil a school shooting by a group of teens then give a lecture about real-world school shooters. A suitable allegory is always preferable to a ripped from the headlines approach when fantasy is involved.
    Well, also when you apply the moral with a sledgehammer you are surprisingly likely to miss the point. Trying to summarize to a single sentence makes a neat sound bite.... nothing else. It doesn't really get the point across if it doesn't actually discuss the subject and simply tells the reader what to think.

    Discussion of moral issues been a staple of comics for decades. Xmen has a long history of trying to use mutants as an analogy for racial strife. It doesn't always work, but they do it a lot. It usually works best when it's subtle, since trying to make it too overt ruins the analogy.

    Your gun control example... Japan has this death cult who uses Sarin gas bombs instead of guns. Just as bad, maybe worse since it's easy to identify a gunman. Figuring out who left a backpack on a train? Possible, but not as easy.

  10. #70
    It's no dream... I'm real Silver Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Pun intended?



    The only romance featuring Diana so far is a hetero one yes, but Diana also pointed out in the first film that men weren't essential when it came to sexual pleasure.
    No it wasn't intended but ha!
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