Captain Marvel/Thor/Captain America(MCU) vs Hela/Kurse/Cull(MCU)

[The Arbiter]

Speaking of offscreen, that combat harness has never shown any of the abilities you speak of.

Thats fair. It's just how my own head canon explained that scene. I mean she modified a pager into a trans-galactic communicator. It's not a crazy thought that her soldier kit could do a thing like that. But! Still, your point remains. It hasn't technically shown those functions.

All the same, Im cool ignoring that feat from a reaction time perspective. Maybe I've got my signals crossed, but I sorta assumed that was the direction you were going.

[Tomzilla]

Captain Marvel vs Hela: No flight for Marvel

Even with flight, I'd give Hela the edge. In my book, Captain Marvel barely edges out the likes of Thanos. Hela, however, is a more significant threat than the Mad Titan. She contemptuously shattered Mjolnir, which gives her a superior strength feat than either Thanos or Captain Marvel. Hela's durability is comparable to Thanos and slightly below Carol's; however, the Goddess of Death makes up for this by having an insane healing factor.

The fight starts with a massive shootout; Hela hurling necro-weapons, Carol firing Photon Blasts. Eventually, the two seek to resolve this evenly matched fight in close quarters, where I favor Hela.

Thor(Infinity War) vs Kurse

Thor needs Stormbreaker to win this fight. With Stormbreaker, he triumphs. Without Stormbreaker, Thor -- even post-Ragnarok Thor -- is in for a world of hurt. Kurse's strength surpasses an enraged Hulk's by a large margin, which puts him comfortably above Thor's strikes. True, Thor has more powers and abilities at his disposal, but Kurse is durable enough to weather the storm.

Captain America w/Mjolnir vs Cull w/Hammer

Cap wins this rather comfortably. It'd be an entertaining fight. Cull is a beast, but Cap went up against his boss and did a commendable job.

Bonus Fight: Hulk vs Malekith w/Aether

Malekith, mostly because Hulk can't hurt him, and even if he could, the Aether would negate the damage.

In a team fight, wowzers -- there's sooooo much that can happen. Ironically, the heroes have a chance here, and it mainly involves the distribution of Stormbreaker. Imagine Thor giving it to Carol, and she flies around wrecking everyone with Photon-lightning charged strikes? Thor can handle himself without Stormbreaker just fine, maybe even help Steve finish off Kurse.

...Everything would go to hel if Hela became the new host body of the Aether.

[moonknight11]

If "by the area" you mean "on the planet", sure. Where on the planet Thanos was is another story. In fact, she explicitly says "it's just him, no warships or armies " - implying this was information unknown to the Avengers from way above the planet, which would be obvious if they already knew exactly where he was in the first place.

So Rocket could detect the energy surge from across the Galaxy but immediately forgot where that surge came from once the avengers got close? Seeing what's around Thanos cabin from high up isn't a particularly great reaction feat or anything.

Are you seriously claiming Cap Marvel did a Silver Surfer like "search an entire planet" speed feat?

[The Arbiter]

Having rewatched Malekith's fight scenes, I'm going to say that Tomzilla's assessment most closely mirrors my own.

Also, puns!

[Twickster]

So Rocket could detect the energy surge from across the Galaxy but immediately forgot where that surge came from once the avengers got close? Seeing what's around Thanos cabin from high up isn't a particularly great reaction feat or anything.

Are you seriously claiming Cap Marvel did a Silver Surfer like "search an entire planet" speed feat?

That the surge *came from a planet*, sure. Where's the evidence they knew exactly Thanos was on the planet, especially since they didn't seem to know whether there was anything *else* on the planet, to the extent that Carol had to scout and report back?

Look, I get that you don't like the feat, but it happened. Whether it happened "Silver Surfer" style, or it was simply Carol zipping through wide swathes of the planet until she spotted a single house by accident within that timeframe is more than enough speed to push Hela out of the atmosphere, which is all that's relevant for this fight.

[moonknight11]

That the surge *came from a planet*, sure. Where's the evidence they knew exactly Thanos was on the planet, especially since they didn't seem to know whether there was anything *else* on the planet, to the extent that Carol had to scout and report back?

Look, I get that you don't like the feat, but it happened. Whether it happened "Silver Surfer" style, or it was simply Carol zipping through wide swathes of the planet until she spotted a single house by accident within that timeframe is more than enough speed to push Hela out of the atmosphere, which is all that's relevant for this fight.

They knew the exact location of the surge and that matters. They don't just forget it. They can pick out a planet from a galaxy but can't pick out a farm from the planet? Thats ridiculous.

You're relying on this iffy offscreen feat for this, meanwhile every reflex feat from both Captain Marvel and Endgame are not enough.

Cap wasn't beyond Thanos in reflexes. She couldn't reach a van before Thanos destroyed it, and her big Spaceship bust shows way lower reflexes than necessary.

I agree she can go hypersonic, but trying to push Hela out gives Hela seconds to skewer cap.


A better move is using Stormbreaker to behead Hela. I could see Cap Marvel do that.

[Twickster]

They knew the exact location of the surge and that matters. They don't just forget it. They can pick out a planet from a galaxy but can't pick out a farm from the planet? Thats ridiculous.

Then why would there be a need to scout the area? You entirely ignored this. They didn't know anything about what was on the planet save that Thanos was *in it*.

You're relying on this iffy offscreen feat for this, meanwhile every reflex feat from both Captain Marvel and Endgame are not enough.

No, I'm relying on Carol, very leisurely I may add, leaving the planet in 10 seconds in her own movie, as well as her warpspeed jump, also in her own movie. See at 0:55 here:



The "scouting a planet and finding a single shack in it in a few minutes" feat is only incidental, which you are somehow trying to convey as portraying her as slower than she is.

Cap wasn't beyond Thanos in reflexes. She couldn't reach a van before Thanos destroyed it, and her big Spaceship bust shows way lower reflexes than necessary.

And? So people don't use their displayed feats to their maximum extent in a movie, why is that news? Movies don't operate by CBR rules. Why didn't Doctor Strange or any of the wizards open a portal underneath Thanos' armies' and BFR them to another planet, or under a deep sea trench, or into space? Why didn't Strange not cut off Thanos' head while he was under in Infinity War? Why didn't Wasp shrink the infinity gauntlet so that nobody could get or wear it? Why didn't Thor just continuously hit Thanos with lightning from a distance, given that Captain Thormerica and Iron Man were likely immune to lightning? That's not reason enough to discount a potential strategy under CBR conditions using demonstrated feats.

I agree she can go hypersonic, but trying to push Hela out gives Hela seconds to skewer cap.

A better move is using Stormbreaker to behead Hela. I could see Cap Marvel do that.

My point is that Captain Marvel is not only pushing Hela out of the way, but also *fighting her* every step of the way, with energy blasts, strength and durability demonstrably greater than Thanos. Now, with her necroblades does Hela have the advantage in HTH, sure. But to claim that Hela will be able to take down Carol, arguably at par or only a step lower than Hela herself as far as power is concerned, in the mere 10 seconds it will take her to get her out of atmosphere and leave her there is highly unlikely. This is someone who couldn't take down *Valkyrie* in 10 seconds (see what I did there, its the same argument you're using regarding the van in Endgame).

[The Arbiter]

Just to be clear: Are you arguing searching the planet is a reflex speed feat? Or a travel speed feat?

10 seconds is a long time to be dragging someone into space who is way stronger than you and can stab you in the neck imo.

[Twickster]

Just to be clear: Are you arguing searching the planet is a reflex speed feat? Or a travel speed feat? .

I'm saying its irrelevant given her other feats, and moreso than that, is *significantly* faster than "taking minutes" as moonknight is claiming:

How fast do you think Cap can go? She may be hypersonic but she's not "take hela to space" before getting skewered fast. She takes minutes to get to the upper atmosphere.

10 seconds is a long time to be dragging someone into space who is way stronger than you and can stab you in the neck imo.

I agree that Hela has an advantage in HTH, but come on, we're talking like she's Black Widow here. CM is arguably the most durable character in the MCU right now, which includes Thanos and Hela herself, and overall, occupies the top 2-or-3 "human-scale" characters in powerlevel (barring esoteric freaks like Ego and Dormammu). Hela's not taking her down in 10 seconds.

[The Arbiter]

I'm saying its irrelevant given her other feats, and moreso than that, is *significantly* faster than "taking minutes" as moonknight is claiming:


I agree that Hela has an advantage in HTH, but come on, we're talking like she's Black Widow here. CM is arguably the most durable character in the MCU right now, which includes Thanos and Hela herself, and overall, occupies the top 2-or-3 "human-scale" characters in powerlevel (barring esoteric freaks like Ego and Dormammu). Hela's not taking her down in 10 seconds.

How fast do you feel Carol's combat reflexes are? Combat to Hela's? Not travel speed. Reaction times and reflexes.

Hela is much more talented than Black Widow.
She is way stronger. Her weapons can shank Carol. Carol needs at least one arm for dragging her, so she's got only one to attack/defend on the way up. She's getting stabbed imo.

She cant take her down in 10 seconds on a normal Arena fight, but in your space dragging scenario, sure.

[Twickster]

How fast do you feel Carol's combat reflexes are? Combat to Hela's? Not travel speed. Reaction times and reflexes.

They should be somewhat comparable, with a slight edge to Carol as far as combat reflexes are concerned, if only due to the dogfight scene in her movie. Hela has no comparable fight scene done at high speed (as her fight with the Asgardian armies were all done at normal speed, and she took hits in it throughout).

Hela is much more talented than Black Widow.
She is way stronger. Her weapons can shank Carol. Carol needs at least one arm for dragging her, so she's got only one to attack/defend on the way up. She's getting stabbed imo.

She cant take her down in 10 seconds on a normal Arena fight, but in your space dragging scenario, sure.

You've misread me, we're talking like *Carol* is like Black Widow here, as far as her relative fragility is concerned. Hella's not just getting dragged, she's just been slammed into with force that one-shot Thanos' ship (which would stun her as far as getting hit with forces more than or comparable with say, Thor's "mother of all lightning bolts", punched and pummeled and hit with laser beams all the way up. Like how Superman was punching up Doomsday in BvS. Now, can Hela fight back while this is happening? Sure. Can Hela take down an actively fighting opponent doing this equal or close to her level, in the timeframe required? No.

[The Arbiter]

You've misread me, we're talking like *Carol* is like Black Widow here, as far as her relative fragility is concerned. Hella's not just getting dragged, she's just been slammed into with force that one-shot Thanos' ship (which would stun her as far as getting hit with forces more than or comparable with say, Thor's "mother of all lightning bolts", punched and pummeled and hit with laser beams all the way up. Like how Superman was punching up Doomsday in BvS. Now, can Hela fight back while this is happening? Sure. Can Hela take down an actively fighting opponent doing this equal or close to her level, in the timeframe required? No.

Ceratainly she can. Her spine and core body were shanked /clean through/ and it bothered her for about .5 seconds. Unless you think Carol can generate enough oomph to straight up mangle her with the paltry 100' starting distance of the Arena, she's going to be barely bothered.

[Twickster]

Ceratainly she can. Her spine and core body were shanked /clean through/ and it bothered her for about .5 seconds. Unless you think Carol can generate enough oomph to straight up mangle her with the paltry 100' starting distance of the Arena, she's going to be barely bothered.

Sure, I do think so, because getting hit with the "mother of all lightning bolts" (which had *less* oomph than what Carol can do slamming into something) did, in fact, take her out for more than 10 seconds.

[The Arbiter]

Sure, because getting hit with the "mother of all lightning bolts" (which had *less* oomph than what Carol can do slamming into something) did, in fact, take her out for more than 10 seconds.

Are you treating Thanos' featless ship as a tremendously durable thing? It's not like a solid block of metal. She just needed to rip through its outer wall of armor and then speed through mostly hollow space and target anything that looked shiny and important. The walls of that ship are nothing compared to Hela, Thor and so on. Thor could probably have managed the same sort of thing. Even ripping up Ronan's ship gave us a pretty good idea that what she was mostly doing was puncturing the outer wall and then smashing through bits and pieces of ship.

The mother of all bolts was Thor's most potent lightning blast ever. It stretched over a kilometer /wide/ at the base. The thing was crazy.

[Twickster]

Are you treating Thanos' featless ship as a tremendously durable thing? It's not like a solid block of metal. She just needed to rip through its outer wall of armor and then speed through mostly hollow space and target anything that looked shiny and important. The walls of that ship are nothing compared to Hela, Thor and so on. Thor could probably have managed the same sort of thing. Even ripping up Ronan's ship gave us a pretty good idea that what she was mostly doing was puncturing the outer wall and then smashing through bits and pieces of ship.

The mother of all bolts was Thor's most potent lightning blast ever. It stretched over a kilometer /wide/ at the base. The thing was crazy.

Using that same logic, are you treating Asgard's featless buildings as a tremendously durable thing? It's not like a solid block of metal. Thor's lightning just needed to rip through its outer wall of armor and then speed through mostly hollow space and target anything that looked shiny and important (i.e. Hela). The walls of those buildings are nothing compared to Hela, Thor and so on. Thor could probably have managed the same sort of thing, but importantly, the buildings were left standing afterwards. Even Dark Elves ships were able to blow through Asgard's walls, which gives us a pretty good idea of how durable those buildings are... which aren't very much.

What is the point of the above? It proves to a baseline, of course. Thor's "mother of all lightning bolts" didn't so much as smash Asgard to smithereens, an Asgard that is not so durable that spaceships can ram through it unharmed. This blast *knocked out* Hela.

So, Thor's lightning, which leaves buildings standing that Dark Elves ships can just ram through, takes down Hela for more than ten seconds. While Captain Marvel, ramming through a city-sized ship which actually *does* destroy it... wont?

Captain Marvels patented "ram into something" >>>>>>>>> Thor's "mother of all lightning", which has been shown to knock out Hela.

(see what I did there?)

The mother of all bolts was Thor's most potent lightning blast ever. It stretched over a kilometer /wide/ at the base. The thing was crazy.

And yet, by feats, it had demonstrably less oomph than Captain Marvel ramming into something. Which is my point.