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  1. #106
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    I don't think Black Canary will be used, sadly. They'll probably ignore her to avoid explaining her relation to the modern day version.
    I also don't see them paying too much attention to the original continuity. This looks like a redo, since Snyder says they're meeting the League for the first time.
    If that IS the case, I wish they had taken the opportunity to have a better gender balance.
    It's weird if they're acting like this is a "re-do" of introducing the two teams two each other since A. that requires a lot more set-up and rebuilding of the property and B. it doesn't look like they're changing the JSA that much.

  2. #107
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    I don't think Black Canary will be used, sadly. They'll probably ignore her to avoid explaining her relation to the modern day version.
    I also don't see them paying too much attention to the original continuity. This looks like a redo, since Snyder says they're meeting the League for the first time.
    If that IS the case, I wish they had taken the opportunity to have a better gender balance.
    A better gender balance would be nice but we have a team from the straight white male 1940s. As a matter of fact the existance of Canary and Wonder Woman on the same team was progressive for the time and unmatched until at least the mid sixties by either DC or Marvel. It's awkward that JSA's women members have closely affiliated modern counterparts. More and more the paving with good intentions of having the JSA and JL on the same Earth is becoming a road to uncomfortable places.

  3. #108
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    I don't think Black Canary will be used, sadly. They'll probably ignore her to avoid explaining her relation to the modern day version.
    I also don't see them paying too much attention to the original continuity. This looks like a redo, since Snyder says they're meeting the League for the first time.
    If that IS the case, I wish they had taken the opportunity to have a better gender balance.
    Don't forget, we're only seeing one image for a cover.
    Covers are notorious for not telling the full story.

    As for the "gender balance" issue, there are really not too many ways around a mostly white-male JSA back in the 1940s. Adding females to the mix gets tricky in terms of just out-and-out, one-for-one replacements if there was now no Wonder Woman and/or Black Canary back then. A more "balanced" team would SCREAM of forcing 21st century political correctness on a mid-20th century comic book group, and if you pull that, then why the hell should people pretend it's the "return of" the original Justice Society of America?

    If you want a more PC-balanced group based in the 1940s, then you better give them a different name/history than calling them the Justice Society of America.
    If you move the group to the present-day 21st century, then you can play around with the membership of the modern version.
    Otherwise, might as well just resurrect the team from Earth 2.






  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    A better gender balance would be nice but we have a team from the straight white male 1940s. As a matter of fact the existance of Canary and Wonder Woman on the same team was progressive for the time and unmatched until at least the mid sixties by either DC or Marvel. It's awkward that JSA's women members have closely affiliated modern counterparts. More and more the paving with good intentions of having the JSA and JL on the same Earth is becoming a road to uncomfortable places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Don't forget, we're only seeing one image for a cover.
    Covers are notorious for not telling the full story.

    As for the "gender balance" issue, there are really not too many ways around a mostly white-male JSA back in the 1940s. Adding females to the mix gets tricky in terms of just out-and-out, one-for-one replacements if there was now no Wonder Woman and/or Black Canary back then. A more "balanced" team would SCREAM of forcing 21st century political correctness on a mid-20th century comic book group, and if you pull that, then why the hell should people pretend it's the "return of" the original Justice Society of America?

    If you want a more PC-balanced group based in the 1940s, then you better give them a different name/history than calling them the Justice Society of America.
    If you move the group to the present-day 21st century, then you can play around with the membership of the modern version.
    Otherwise, might as well just resurrect the team from Earth 2.
    Liberty Belle could replace Black Canary.

    The only replacement for Diana is Hippolyta...otherwise don't bother. (The last timed they tried replacing Diana it was a big mess.)

    There are some golden age heroines who'd fit in the JSA...but I think some fans would scream.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Well, since Starman replaced Hourman as a member of the JSA (in All Star Comics #8, cover-dated December 1941-January 1942), the same issue where Dr. Fate first wore his half-helmet in a JSA story, and the fact that Sandman originally last wore his green suit and gas mask in a Golden Age JSA story in All Star Comics #9 (February-March 1942) does make it a bit hard to pin down around when this might be representing.
    And back in the Golden Age stories, Wildcat first appeared in a JSA adventure in All-Star Comics #24 (Spring 1945).
    Quote Originally Posted by andersonh1 View Post
    Wildcat was in two stories, and Mr. Terrific was in one. Flash and Green Lantern were not in the book from what, All-Star 8 through All-Star 24, or something like that? In fact, I'm not sure Flash and Starman ever shared an All-Star issue. So this lineup doesn't match any of the actual issues, but it could easily be said that it took place between issues, and drew from the various active and honorary members who were available. I'm fine with it.

    Sandman was gone when Wildcat made his appearances, and should have been in his purple and gold costume. But I prefer the suit and gas mask anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    ...

    Taking a strict "members only" approach, the picture is out of place. Sandman puts the time at an earlier setting and if we accept All Star Squadron as canon for this, the JSA often were with other heroes in their earliest days. But even by strict All-Star Comics only, the Honorary Supes and Bats showed up a couple of times, Black canary had a couple of adventures before being officially accepted as a member.
    We are not getting that JSA.

    We are getting some neo-version of the JSA...and maybe their villains. We need to accept changes.

  6. #111
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    We are not getting that JSA.

    We are getting some neo-version of the JSA...and maybe their villains. We need to accept changes.
    Not true.

    We don't have to "accept" changes.

    If we don't like what DC gives us, we don't have to support it. Simple as that.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Not true.

    We don't have to "accept" changes.

    If we don't like what DC gives us, we don't have to support it. Simple as that.
    True.

    I am not supporting the current DC by only buying 2 comics and 2 mini-series.

    In future, I will probably only buy whatever DC Kids is in 2020.

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    True.

    I am not supporting the current DC by only buying 2 comics and 2 mini-series.
    I buy less from DC than that at present, and I may soon drop my one monthly book I was still buying.

    I might try out Tomasi's Detective Comics for the arc with the Spectre, and I still have to decide what to do when Snyder uses the JSA.
    (Might just wait for a tpb collection on that, though twice-a-month Justice League might be slightly more palatable than his once-a-month glacial pace.)

  9. #114
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    The repeat some of my thoughts from the Wonder Woman and the JSA thread on potential past and future women for the restored JSA...

    I see no reason why the JSA can't or shouldn't have "their" Black Canary. I'd just retcon/adjust the generation gap between the two. Dinah Drake would be the golden age Black Canary and a member of the JSA in the late forties and early fifties. Dinah Laurel Lance would be moved to being her granddaughter or great-granddaughter to account for her age. It's simple enough and I feel the post-crisis legacy version of her origin was much better than the New 52 version which would be jettisoned. Maybe she could also join a modern reformation of the JSA.

    Stargirl will likely have her connections to the Starman legacy restored and would likely be part of a modern formation.

    I also expect the Power Girl seen trapped in that extradimensional space over in Deathstroke to also be a member of the modern day formation.

    I'd like the JSA to have Wonder Woman analogue, but right now I'm not expecting it. At one point I thought they were going to put Myrina Black in that role given that in Darkseid War she been in the outside world since roman times and been mentioned as having fought Red Panzer and Minister Blizzard, both golden age/WWII era WW foes. Though I didn't like Myrina and couldn't really picture her as JSA member.

    Also hoping Jade(and Obsidian) are restored to existing. I also want Maxine Hunkel back as part of a modern formation.

  10. #115
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    The repeat some of my thoughts from the Wonder Woman and the JSA thread on potential past and future women for the restored JSA...

    I see no reason why the JSA can't or shouldn't have "their" Black Canary. I'd just retcon/adjust the generation gap between the two. Dinah Drake would be the golden age Black Canary and a member of the JSA in the late forties and early fifties. Dinah Laurel Lance would be moved to being her granddaughter or great-granddaughter to account for her age. It's simple enough and I feel the post-crisis legacy version of her origin was much better than the New 52 version which would be jettisoned. Maybe she could also join a modern reformation of the JSA.

    Stargirl will likely have her connections to the Starman legacy restored and would likely be part of a modern formation.

    I also expect the Power Girl seen trapped in that extradimensional space over in Deathstroke to also be a member of the modern day formation.

    I'd like the JSA to have Wonder Woman analogue, but right now I'm not expecting it. At one point I thought they were going to put Myrina Black in that role given that in Darkseid War she been in the outside world since roman times and been mentioned as having fought Red Panzer and Minister Blizzard, both golden age/WWII era WW foes. Though I didn't like Myrina and couldn't really picture her as JSA member.

    Also hoping Jade(and Obsidian) are restored to existing. I also want Maxine Hunkel back as part of a modern formation.
    The past women is the big stumbling point here since initially we're only having them in the past when Snyder starts using them. Depending when in the past history Snyder has his story take place, Black Canary may be a non-issue. If/when it comes time to restore the period when she was originally active into continuity, I don't think a grandmother or great-grandmother would be a good idea. Going with a great aunt to modern-day Dinah leaves more flexibility for the age-difference issue while still maintaining a familial connection.

    And by the way, Red Panzer isn't a true "Golden Age" foe; he was a retconned foe for that period (actually created in the 1970s).

    Power Girl may also be a sticky point depending on how/what/when any origin for her comes about. (I'm hoping they don't revive her awful Arion of Atlantis-related post-CoIE origin retcon once their was no Golden Age Superman for her to be related to.)

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    The past women is the big stumbling point here since initially we're only having them in the past when Snyder starts using them. Depending when in the past history Snyder has his story take place, Black Canary may be a non-issue. If/when it comes time to restore the period when she was originally active into continuity, I don't think a grandmother or great-grandmother would be a good idea. Going with a great aunt to modern-day Dinah leaves more flexibility for the age-difference issue while still maintaining a familial connection.

    And by the way, Red Panzer isn't a true "Golden Age" foe; he was a retconned foe for that period (actually created in the 1970s).

    Power Girl may also be a sticky point depending on how/what/when any origin for her comes about. (I'm hoping they don't revive her awful Arion of Atlantis-related post-CoIE origin retcon once their was no Golden Age Superman for her to be related to.)
    I could live with the canary's having a less direct family relationship like your suggestion just as well.

    I know Red Panzer is a retcon character which is why I put "/WWII era" after golden age, to cover my basis.

    I'm expecting Power Girl will just have her post infinite crisis origin of multiversal/metaversal anomaly/survivor who refuses to just stop existing.

  12. #117
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    I could live with the canary's having a less direct family relationship like your suggestion just as well.

    I know Red Panzer is a retcon character which is why I put "/WWII era" after golden age, to cover my basis.

    I'm expecting Power Girl will just have her post infinite crisis origin of multiversal/metaversal anomaly/survivor who refuses to just stop existing.
    Also, regarding all the post-Golden Age members/heroes you talked about, first we have to see how much of the JSA's past gets "restored" before worrying about the later generation members. There had been rumors that DC might just time-jump the Golden Age members to the present, and if that happens, then the Legacy kids may never have been born in the first place.

  13. #118
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    In my opinion, DC's choice of methodology for the return of the JSA is more important than in the past. The timeframe between the JSA original years and today is far enough so that there really is no way for the JSA, family, friends, and villains to exist today without significant story shenanigans. Sure, we can assume some members having long lives, but for spouses (Joan Garrick?) and villains, we're stuck with a few who can easily be explained. But then again, I doubt DC is going to want to stick with more than a few characters.

    Where the problems occurs are with family and the Infinity, Inc. characters. Sure, it's possible for men in their 70s to have kids, but the length of time for the Infinitors to be young adults/teens is getting longer and longer. So we need a timejump to keep the Infinitors from being too convoluted than they already were.

    Rebirth and DClock by Johns give importance to Johnny and the HUAC hearings, Dr Manhattan moving the magic lamp, and Wally talking with Jay seen in flashback. We also have the JSA supposedly being able to be used at a certain point regardless of DClock's finish. Snyder's been speaking about doing something with the JSA, but it's Twitter level of detail and as such, we're pretty much still in the dark.

    The events I'd be most interested in are DClock 12 (I expect 11 to be all Supes/Manhattan, but I may be surprised), Justice League Doom War with the JSA, and of course, next month's solicits. JSA fans are a lot like racing greyhounds chasing Swift (an actual JSA return)y around the track.

  14. #119
    Mighty Member upgrayedd's Avatar
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    They can count on me to buy two issues of every JSA appearance, voting with my wallet.
    I have no beef with Vegans

  15. #120
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    . . . Rebirth and DClock by Johns give importance to Johnny and the HUAC hearings . . .
    I unfortunately disagree on that point.

    DC Universe: Rebirth #1 from back in 2016 seemed to indicate that was when Johnny claimed Thunderbolt and the rest of the JSA vanished, but three years later, it looks like Geoff Johns either forgot about that or is ignoring it now?
    Looking through (but not buying a copy) of Doomsday Cluck #10, didn't it seem like Geoff Johns was now (then?) having Thunderbolt disappear as far back as the events of All-Star Comics #3, the first meeting of the JSA? And if Johns and his all-things-GL-fixation is implying that if Alan Scott died when Dr. Manhattan moved the lantern and never became Green Lantern, then the JSA ceased to ever be (though how Alan was GL for that picture in DC #10 is confusing), that would also contradict what Johnny thought/said back in DC Universe: Rebirth #1.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    . . . and Wally talking with Jay seen in flashback.
    Which is something Wally seems to have remembered while still in the Speedforce (or wherever he was prior to DC Universe: Rebirth #1), but which may no longer apply due to the machinations of Dr. Manhattan, and may not even be remembered by Wally any longer the longer he's been in the changed DC Universe and away from the protection of the Speedforce.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    The events I'd be most interested in are DClock 12 (I expect 11 to be all Supes/Manhattan, but I may be surprised), Justice League Doom War with the JSA, and of course, next month's solicits. JSA fans are a lot like racing greyhounds chasing Swift (an actual JSA return)y around the track.
    I don't even know if Geoff Johns will do/resolve anything regarding the JSA in the remaining two issues of Doomsday Cluck. Issue #11 is still currently listed as "In Shops: Aug 14, 2019" on Previewsworld, and I'm still not aware of #12 being solicited yet. (Don't know how likely it would be to make it out in September of this year.)

    Since Snyder's using them starting in September's Justice League, Geoff Johns may not be doing anything more about the JSA after that point, because that would be one more headache to coordinate with an on-going story.

    Quote Originally Posted by upgrayedd View Post
    They can count on me to buy two issues of every JSA appearance, voting with my wallet.
    I can't say the same.
    I'm not even convinced I'll buy any issues with a JSA appearance if I don't like what DC does with a "returned" JSA.
    They're too good at screwing up what to me should be a simple, no-brainer concept.
    Last edited by MajorHoy; 06-23-2019 at 07:32 AM.

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