Starfox Appeciation!

[CaTigeReptile]

Where has Starfox been? We never see him anymore.

He was basically made unusable by a storyline that, whether or not it was intentional, made him seem like an awful character in the eyes of general readership, and that made him toxic for the past decade, so he's been in limbo.

We've talked about it earlier in the thread. BUT YEAH THE POINT IS HE'S COMING BACK IN APRIL W00000!

With kneepads

I'm super-busy, there's another reply to this thread I want to write but don't have the time today

PS I am loving that panel with Eros and the ladies and gents. And that it's his dad narrating.

[Dermie]

I'm super-busy, there's another reply to this thread I want to write but don't have the time today

I can sympathize--I sometimes am absent from the thread for a few days at a time too, with my work schedule. We'll look forward to hearing from you when you've got the time!

PS I am loving that panel with Eros and the ladies and gents. And that it's his dad narrating.

*lol* Yeah, well, by now Mentor is well aware of his son's activities--he's probably had to install extra sound-proofing in their home to prevent being kept awake at night from Eros' "slumber parties".

[MollyBarton]

He probably wonders why he has no grandchildren yet.

Have some Eros Butt:

It was fabulous even in the beginning, though it looks like he's talking out of his ass in this panel:
starfox butt 1.JPG

starfox butt 2.JPG

[Dermie]

Nice ones, thanks Molly!!

[Dermie]

The main CBR page put up a link to an old article they had, with fan-art of male heroes in female costumes...our boy Starfox is represented, dressed in the costume of DC's Starfire...

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...line2-29-5.jpg

[MollyBarton]

It's disturbing yet hot. Typical Starfox.

[MollyBarton]

I'm sorry. I'm so so sorry. But the panel I posted earlier was just asking for it:

starfart.jpg

Hey, I'm not the one who put the speech bubble over his butt!

[Dermie]

Earlier in the thread we discussed how Eros may have had an off-panel fling with Hercules. I think we can pinpoint the exact moment when the Prince of Power drew the attention of our beloved Erotic Avenger...

erosgetsaneyefull1.jpg

erosgetsaneyefull2.jpg

I love Eros' face in that panel! A hilarious blend of shocked and intrigued!

[MollyBarton]

Funny that Herc is so embarrassed here, yet rather proudly runs around naked in Avengers Academy.

I doubt Eros was all that shocked. At his age, he's seen (and done) everything!

[Dermie]

Funny that Herc is so embarrassed here, yet rather proudly runs around naked in Avengers Academy.

I think there are two main differences there--one, his nudity in ACADEMY was intentional whereas here he thought he was dressed and wasn't. Two, this time he had Captain America standing there scolding him over it.

I doubt Eros was all that shocked. At his age, he's seen (and done) everything!

True enough, but godly endowments are still something a bit special.

[krazijoe]

Earlier in the thread we discussed how Eros may have had an off-panel fling with Hercules. I think we can pinpoint the exact moment when the Prince of Power drew the attention of our beloved Erotic Avenger...

erosgetsaneyefull1.jpg

erosgetsaneyefull2.jpg

I love Eros' face in that panel! A hilarious blend of shocked and intrigued!

Bah, Hercules wouldn't care...

[MollyBarton]

I think there are two main differences there--one, his nudity in ACADEMY was intentional whereas here he thought he was dressed and wasn't. Two, this time he had Captain America standing there scolding him over it.



True enough, but godly endowments are still something a bit special.

But Eros is sort of a God himself. Bet he's seen bigger.

[CaTigeReptile]

WOOO MY POST IS A MONTH LATE

Jan doesn't say that she has had experience with him in bed though--just that he shows a girl a good time. She can be basing that on hearsay and her own observations. In conversations with She-Hulk, it was clear that Jan and Eros never slept together (although they very well might have, if she hadn't gotten creeped out by his pleasure powers when she first learned about him and started giving him the cold shoulder for a few issues until he cleared the air).

She says that she "personally" knows. I think that was quite rather clearly meant to insinuate it. I agree it didn't happen, thus me pointing it out as not being canon.

I'm not sure where you're getting the "marriage material" angle from--she just says she finds guys that are constantly on the prowl to be a turn off. There's a rather large middle ground between "on the prowl" and "married".

I got it from the societal expectations of what women were supposed to want at the time and are still insinuated to want first and foremost: monogamous relationships and emotional attachment. This was written by a man. Women are still told that they are supposed to not really want sex, but rather want romance. To ignore this stereotype that fuels how women are mostly written in fiction is just making an excuse for furthering that stereotype without character exploration or individuation - for instance, She-Hulk is known for enjoying no-strings-attached hookups, so why would she be bothered by someone who is also only interested in that type of thing? (I go further into that when I reply to the 'sleazy' comment)

But as for her rating of Hercules, there are two things to consider there. 1) at the time John Byrne was setting up a She-Hulk/Herc romance for in the SENSATIONAL SHE-HULK series, so her attitude there would be based on that. 2) Hercules IS considered a very sexy and attractive man. Certainly a different physical 'type' than Eros, but just as appealing in his own way--different strokes for different folks.

I think Hercules being considered by all the women to be the pinnacle of sexiness is in fact an extension of the power fantasy that he blatantly represents - like it's a way to validate the superhumanly muscular physique as being What Women Want. Remember, this was a man writing a whole little piece about What Women Want. Don't get me wrong, I love Herc . . . but partly because his personality is not a 10. If Eros is only good for a one-night-stand, what exactly makes Herc better for something more . . . ? I mean, Byrne's romance aside, come on.

I think the "sleazy" would be a bit of a slut-shaming attitude on the part of the writer...Eros is sleazy because he's only into one-night stands a casual sex.

Well, I don't think that men can really be 'slut shamed,' especially not in the '80s, because the worst that could happen would be that some women wouldn't want to have sex with you, whereas women who are deemed 'sluts' end up the targets of violence and then victim-blaming. Besides, 'sleazy' is a word that still has threat value to it (I explain a bit below).

It is disapproval of someone's sex life . . . but again, the author was a man writing about 'What Women Want.' Women are (still) told/said to distrust promiscuous men because women are essentially told that a casual hookup is unnatural for them - that having sex is a victory ("score") for a man while for a woman she is losing something ("giving it up"). That is, that a woman would never choose to actually have "meaningless" sex, and so she is somehow being tricked or fooled or lied to by the 'sleazy' man. The only other time you really see the word sleazy is in regards to salespeople, after all.

I can find articles about this for you - it's fairly well-known and recognized as being a cultural 'thing.' You can see it in how most media representations of any sort of flirting has the woman start out very unimpressed (there were great exceptions, such as Shulkie and 'Fox at the time, of course!)

But aside from a few characterization glitches (mostly in the Starfox entry, as noted), this was a really fun little back-up feature (and one of the earliest cases I can think of with characters commenting on-panel about what a great butt Clint Barton has!). I'd kinda like to see them do it again at some point, including all the new men that have joined the Avengers since then...and some revised and updated opinions as things have changed over the years (with Quasar no longer being the shy, young newbie; Quicksilver having redeemed himself somewhat; Dr. Druid having been rejuvenated into a younger body...until he was killed, etc).

Yes. Miguel Santos as special guest gay guy.

But Eros is sort of a God himself. Bet he's seen bigger.

Exactly. In fact, he and Herc probably hooked up back in the day. 100% for reviving the 'Eros is the Eros' original canon . . . and thus making his first two lines ever said in any comic ever actually canon again.

[Dermie]

She says that she "personally" knows. I think that was quite rather clearly meant to insinuate it. I agree it didn't happen, thus me pointing it out as not being canon.

She says that she knows he shows a girl a good time, but personally she thinks he's too sleazy. She's stating her personal opinion of him, not recounting her personal experience.

But either way, its incorrect because we know that ISN'T how Jan feels about him. Most of the rest of this feature makes sense, but the Starfox entry is just wrong in all regards.

I think Hercules being considered by all the women to be the pinnacle of sexiness is in fact an extension of the power fantasy that he blatantly represents - like it's a way to validate the superhumanly muscular physique as being What Women Want. Remember, this was a man writing a whole little piece about What Women Want. Don't get me wrong, I love Herc . . . but partly because his personality is not a 10. If Eros is only good for a one-night-stand, what exactly makes Herc better for something more . . . ? I mean, Byrne's romance aside, come on.

Fair enough. You're right that Herc should be equal with Eros in regards to the "one night stand" rating.

Well, I don't think that men can really be 'slut shamed,' especially not in the '80s, because the worst that could happen would be that some women wouldn't want to have sex with you, whereas women who are deemed 'sluts' end up the targets of violence and then victim-blaming.

Women certainly face additional consequences for it, but yes, men can be 'slut shamed', in terms of being subjected to judgement and harassment based on their sexual activities. It is certainly less common for men than for women, but it does happen.

It is disapproval of someone's sex life . . . but again, the author was a man writing about 'What Women Want.' Women are (still) told/said to distrust promiscuous men because women are essentially told that a casual hookup is unnatural for them - that having sex is a victory ("score") for a man while for a woman she is losing something ("giving it up"). That is, that a woman would never choose to actually have "meaningless" sex, and so she is somehow being tricked or fooled or lied to by the 'sleazy' man. The only other time you really see the word sleazy is in regards to salespeople, after all.

I can find articles about this for you - it's fairly well-known and recognized as being a cultural 'thing.' You can see it in how most media representations of any sort of flirting has the woman start out very unimpressed (there were great exceptions, such as Shulkie and 'Fox at the time, of course!)

I agree that it is a common cultural thing as a generalization...I just think it is risky to automatically assume that because it was written by a man it must be this particular bias, etc. That bias may indeed have been influencing Gruenwald, but I just get squeamish about assumptions based on generalizations, that's all.

Yes. Miguel Santos as special guest gay guy.

That could be fun...although I fear it would end up with backlash about making Miguel look like a "predatory gay", lusting after his straight teammates, etc. Hopefully it wouldn't get that reaction (at least if written well), but having a gay guy making those comments wouldn't be as "safe" as having the women do it.

[CaTigeReptile]

She says that she knows he shows a girl a good time, but personally she thinks he's too sleazy. She's stating her personal opinion of him, not recounting her personal experience.

I think we can agree to disagree here - because being good in bed and being "sleazy" are not mutually exclusive.

Women certainly face additional consequences for it, but yes, men can be 'slut shamed', in terms of being subjected to judgement and harassment based on their sexual activities. It is certainly less common for men than for women, but it does happen.

That's true up to a certain point; I'd just argue that the phrase "slut shaming" is particularly focused on women (who are the people who generally get called sluts), and since it is a far more serious and dangerous and damaging and pervasive cultural attitude - the one that boils down basically to an enormous stigma against women having sex (DESPITE being so sexualized in so many situations where men are not) - and leads to physical violence against women and drives women to suicide and fuels victim-blaming and "she was asking for it" and a whole bunch of things that, while not exclusive to women, are problems that influence women's lives and options and safety ubiquitously and universally - slut-shaming is the rule for women, not the exception, and thus I believe is for all intents and purposes as a term specifically about that cultural attitude towards women.

I agree that it is a common cultural thing as a generalization...I just think it is risky to automatically assume that because it was written by a man it must be this particular bias, etc. That bias may indeed have been influencing Gruenwald, but I just get squeamish about assumptions based on generalizations, that's all.

I understand what you're saying in terms of we don't know about him personally (at least whether or not it was intentional, because it was probably not. Most things like this are not conscious and certainly not malicious behavior), but regardless of his intentions that's how it looks, and thus reinforces the cultural attitudes that, well, make Eros generally disliked yet make Amora adored . . . which you touch on below.

That could be fun...although I fear it would end up with backlash about making Miguel look like a "predatory gay", lusting after his straight teammates, etc. Hopefully it wouldn't get that reaction (at least if written well), but having a gay guy making those comments wouldn't be as "safe" as having the women do it.

Ah yes, the classic "gay panic" - the men who fear being treated the way that they treat women. Again, our culture is telling us how to behave - and yes, through generalizations that stifle people's ability to be themselves: man = predator, woman = prey . . . thus "safer" to make judgement like you say: Women's judgment of men's attractiveness, just like their autonomous desire/sexual drive in general, are not considered objectifying to men because women are basically considered powerless against men. And THAT, of course, leads us to "Eros is a guy, he has pleasure powers, and he has a lot of sex, thus (adding in the cultural assumptions that women don't actually ever want to have sex and thus have no autonomy regarding their sexual behavior/decision-making), he must be a rapist."

Here's a piece about that cultural phenomenon that puts it very well.

Sorry I repeat myself so often, but it's simply a theme that comes up so very often when, well, looking at these sorts of things (and looking at Eros! and why I love him)


But hey, why not take advantage of that to make people uncomfortable? Instead of Miguel, it could always be Eros! I bet it would make all the lazy fanboys who think he's creepy absolutely freak out vicariously through the male characters, fearful that he would use his Gay Space Magic on them.

Or so I'd like to fantasize and laugh at because it makes me less bitter.



Clearly we should all be terrified.

On a similar note, I like to imagine all the Fox News type media always throwing shade.

"IS STARFOX TURNING YOUR CHILDREN INTO SEXUAL DEVIANTS?? MORE AT ELEVEN"

Then I could see, like, the Rush Limbaugh type saying something like "I'd rather die than be rescued by an amoral fruity unchristian Cupid alien etc," and then, of course, later in the story getting rescued by him.

Eros would probably revel in it and ham it up because he's been on all sides of that cultural equation we've been talking about, what with being an ancient universe-travelling alien and all and thinks watching all of them running around freaking out is funny.

Oh yeah, that reminds me of the joking question from earlier in the thread about Mentor not understanding how he doesn't have grandchildren by now. I have a headcanon about that, actually (besides, you know, safe sex and all that)!

Eros could be sterile. Especially now because Thanos canonically has a child - the thought of Thanos actually bringing life into the universe (which made me cranky at first) could be extended to the idea that Eros actually can't.