Starfox Appeciation!

[Dermie]

That's true up to a certain point; I'd just argue that the phrase "slut shaming" is particularly focused on women (who are the people who generally get called sluts), and since it is a far more serious and dangerous and damaging and pervasive cultural attitude - the one that boils down basically to an enormous stigma against women having sex (DESPITE being so sexualized in so many situations where men are not) - and leads to physical violence against women and drives women to suicide and fuels victim-blaming and "she was asking for it" and a whole bunch of things that, while not exclusive to women, are problems that influence women's lives and options and safety ubiquitously and universally - slut-shaming is the rule for women, not the exception, and thus I believe is for all intents and purposes as a term specifically about that cultural attitude towards women.

I agree that the term is primarily a woman-focused one, and that women tend to bear consequences for it far beyond what happens to men for it. But in this particular case, I was just referring to the basic idea of being subjected to judgement based on sexual activity, which seems to be the attitude towards Starfox in that feature, and the "slut-shaming" terminology seemed an appropriate shorthand.

I understand what you're saying in terms of we don't know about him personally (at least whether or not it was intentional, because it was probably not. Most things like this are not conscious and certainly not malicious behavior), but regardless of his intentions that's how it looks, and thus reinforces the cultural attitudes that, well, make Eros generally disliked yet make Amora adored . . . which you touch on below.

Fair enough.

Ah yes, the classic "gay panic" - the men who fear being treated the way that they treat women. Again, our culture is telling us how to behave - and yes, through generalizations that stifle people's ability to be themselves: man = predator, woman = prey . . . thus "safer" to make judgement like you say: Women's judgment of men's attractiveness, just like their autonomous desire/sexual drive in general, are not considered objectifying to men because women are basically considered powerless against men. And THAT, of course, leads us to "Eros is a guy, he has pleasure powers, and he has a lot of sex, thus (adding in the cultural assumptions that women don't actually ever want to have sex and thus have no autonomy regarding their sexual behavior/decision-making), he must be a rapist."

I think there is also an aspect of people recognizing their own flaws--how they might be tempted to mis-use such a power if they had it--and therefore assume that everyone else must share the same flaw. "If I had the power to trigger lust in anyone I wanted to, I'd definitely take advantage of it--so therefore Eros MUST be a rapist, because since I would do it, obviously he would too".

Here's a piece about that cultural phenomenon that puts it very well.

Thanks.

But hey, why not take advantage of that to make people uncomfortable? Instead of Miguel, it could always be Eros! I bet it would make all the lazy fanboys who think he's creepy absolutely freak out vicariously through the male characters, fearful that he would use his Gay Space Magic on them.

In a way, Eros doing it might also be "safer" than Miguel doing it--since Eros is so well-established as a woman-chasing hornball, he might be les "threatening" as bisexual than Miguel would be as full-out gay. "Eros might look at me that way...but only if there isn't some beautiful babe around to catch his eye first".

On a similar note, I like to imagine all the Fox News type media always throwing shade.

"IS STARFOX TURNING YOUR CHILDREN INTO SEXUAL DEVIANTS?? MORE AT ELEVEN"

LOL. Don't give them any ideas!!!

Oh yeah, that reminds me of the joking question from earlier in the thread about Mentor not understanding how he doesn't have grandchildren by now. I have a headcanon about that, actually (besides, you know, safe sex and all that)!

Eros could be sterile. Especially now because Thanos canonically has a child - the thought of Thanos actually bringing life into the universe (which made me cranky at first) could be extended to the idea that Eros actually can't.

Interesting thought...but I would think Titanian super-science would be able to cure sterility. They got a woman pregnant by a dead man...twice! My guess is that it is more a matter of their science having perfected birth control technology so that it is 100% effective.

[CaTigeReptile]

Oh good lord. I saw the panels posted on Twitter of Starfox from Rage of Ultron and they are literally everything I was hoping that they wouldn't be. It's just him being the Bro Fantasy and I just. What a waste of potential. They had an opportunity to do something new and interesting, and they didn't take it.

I can't even post them here because I can't get myself to look at them again.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Swamp Thing 2099]

Oh good lord. I saw the panels posted on Twitter of Starfox from Rage of Ultron and they are literally everything I was hoping that they wouldn't be. It's just him being the Bro Fantasy and I just. What a waste of potential. They had an opportunity to do something new and interesting, and they didn't take it.

I can't even post them here because I can't get myself to look at them again.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

I'm going to die. That's what this is, yeah?

[CaTigeReptile]

I'm going to die. That's what this is, yeah?

Yep, on Twitter. "Making the world love Starfox," they say. Playing off of the "he's COVERED in women" angle which is so flat and archaic and does the character no justice . . . is not how to do it.

[MollyBarton]

I just saw that. Yikes. I don't want Eros to be a man-slut just for the sake of being a man-slut. Hopefully, there's going to be more to him than that.

[CaTigeReptile]

I just saw that. Yikes. I don't want Eros to be a man-slut just for the sake of being a man-slut. Hopefully, there's going to be more to him than that.

Yep. I see those panels and within them see an utterly unlikable character with all of the trappings that he had back in 2005. I really really hope I'm seeing it wrong. There's another panel posted in that conversation thread on twitter that's even worse. I wish I didn't like this character so much because then I wouldn't be so utterly disappointed.

[MollyBarton]

Yeah, the one where all the girls are on their knees. Ugh. Just ugh.

Maybe it's just a flashback? Hard to tell with no words. He had his pleasure power permanently turned off, didn't he? I doubt an entire room of women would act like that towards him without those powers. He's not THAT sexy!

[CaTigeReptile]

Well, hopefully you mean without the promise of his pleasure powers.

He basically looks like a villain. It's an establishing shot for a villain.

It looks like it could be in the Hall of Passion (if that's gonna be a thing in this canon)? In that case I would expect him to kind of be just having his powers turned on? Because I would kind of hate to have them taken away to be honest, but I almost feel now like I'm being a "only I can write him correctly" kind of fan . . .

I don't know, but you're right, it's too early to judge. I just really really really hope he's interesting and likable and that there's more to him than this. I totally would be down for this if he turns out to be a Ruby Rhod-type, because I love Starfox's whimsical flamboyance, or if any of these women get some kind of backstory or sexual agency explaining why they chose to be there.

Though yeah, he also doesn't look attractive, really. More just like a cocky cishet douchebro. Like I can't really imagine him interacting with any female non-nameless/faceless/personalityless characters after this.

But I've decided I'll genderbend this in West Hollywood during Halloween and it'll make me feel better.

Let's see if Remender keeps his twitter promise and has Opena throw some dudes into the 'harem' scenes. I doubt it. Don't want to make the cishet male readers uncomfortable, after all.

Of course, best case scenario is it's a ruse or a misdirect. I have a sliver of hope only because it is just so absolutely everything that is wrong with his characterization. I mean like I said it would even be okay if he were drawn more to give off a Prince or Ruby Rhod vibe, but no, this is just pure cishet make power/sexual fantasy. Utterly unlikable and rather misogynistic.

If not, well, this sets the precedent for Eros now. What a wasted opportunity and an utter disappointment. I'm going to go cry on Roger Stern's shoulder now.

Wait, maybe he IS a villain. Maybe he's been AXIS'd!

[Dermie]

Well.

I am going to reserve judgement for now, since we have no dialogue or context for the images. But yeah, it definitely looks like the "male fantasy" image going on there. BUT, to be fair to all the creators involved, that is not something entirely new to Eros--we've seen him with multiple women fawning over him before, in multiple different stories. What we're seeing here is definitely a new extreme to it, so that does make me a bit uneasy...but it might not be as bad as it appears from a pair of out-of-context images.

One thing I will say in favour of those images is that it looks like Eros is at least partly undressed himself--which is a good thing. Too many times with the "male fantasy" image (both in Eros' history specifically, and in comics/tv/movies in general) we have these naked or scantily-clad ladies draped over a fully-clothed man. If we're going to have "Eros the hetero-horndog" scenes, at least it seems we're going to get some equal-opportunity eye candy with it (well, not quite equal, with its one Starfox to dozens of women, but you know what I mean...)

[MollyBarton]

Yeah, it is nice to see Eros shirtless for a change.

ETA- I read The Death of Captain Marvel last night. Here is good old loyal friend Eros (this was before he was called Starfox):
crying starfox.jpg

Poor Eros. He's crying!

[CaTigeReptile]

Well.

I am going to reserve judgement for now, since we have no dialogue or context for the images. But yeah, it definitely looks like the "male fantasy" image going on there. BUT, to be fair to all the creators involved, that is not something entirely new to Eros--we've seen him with multiple women fawning over him before, in multiple different stories. What we're seeing here is definitely a new extreme to it, so that does make me a bit uneasy...but it might not be as bad as it appears from a pair of out-of-context images.

One thing I will say in favour of those images is that it looks like Eros is at least partly undressed himself--which is a good thing. Too many times with the "male fantasy" image (both in Eros' history specifically, and in comics/tv/movies in general) we have these naked or scantily-clad ladies draped over a fully-clothed man. If we're going to have "Eros the hetero-horndog" scenes, at least it seems we're going to get some equal-opportunity eye candy with it (well, not quite equal, with its one Starfox to dozens of women, but you know what I mean...)

Yeah, this is a basically offensive extreme, lacking any charm or heroics. His face is, like, all aloof and arrogant and threatening(!), which is discouraging. Eros is about pleasure, not power, and even when he's been shown with ladies (and those two gents of course), he's never looked malevolent. He's about the good part of sexuality! He's a good guy!

It's gotta do with Axis or Ultron or something. It just has to; it's way too much of everything that could possibly go wrong and is basically the opposite of redeeming, and it's NOT going to make him a more usable character - it's gonna be the final nail in the coffin. Even if it's supposed to be the "******* learns how to take life seriously" type of character arc (which he does not need), it's not gonna fly. So it's gotta be something else.

If it 's not, I think I'm going to have to save up like a thousand dollars and get my revenge through commissions by Joe Phillips, and then, to paraphrase Remender, drown myself in hobo piss.

RE: Molly

I KNOW! I love DoCM so much. It's Eros, being all happy and cheery to his friend to comfort him and then letting himself be sad when he's alone. It's an awkward, perfect scene, dealing with their friendship, Eros's feelings for Elysius (Mar basically giving Eros 'permission' to date her), and of course Mar's impending death.

OH YEAH THAT'S RIGHT, he's Mar-Vell's best friend. People tend to forget that, and at this point I can't even blame them.

[MollyBarton]

Here's another old school cheerful Eros. I don't know what the context is, never read the issue (Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #106), but all you need to know is that he laughs so hard that he falls on his ass.

eros falls on his ass.jpg

[CaTigeReptile]

Here's another old school cheerful Eros. I don't know what the context is, never read the issue (Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #106), but all you need to know is that he laughs so hard that he falls on his ass.

eros falls on his ass.jpg

That one's awesome. Spidey is just ranting and raving and Eros is just floating there zen-like with his ass as awesome as ever:


Then Jan comes in and starts talking fashion and Spidey gets frustrated so he jumps on the ceiling upside-down. Starfox thinks this is hilarious.

Also I was re-reading AA14 for Reasons and came across this panel of cuties being frendz:



Sigh . . . at least we'll always have the '80s.

[MollyBarton]

^Aw, Dane. I wish there had been more time for an Eros/Dane friendship. But he left too soon after Dane came back.

[From The Shadows]

Yep, on Twitter. "Making the world love Starfox," they say. Playing off of the "he's COVERED in women" angle which is so flat and archaic and does the character no justice . . . is not how to do it.

Huuuuh? Sounds like I missed something. Anyone have a link?

It's disturbing yet hot. Typical Starfox.

Whew. Haha. That it is.