Starfox Appeciation!

[Dermie]

Because the She-Hulk storyline basically made him unusable.

I don't think that's true. The SHE-HULK storyline made it explicitly clear that he was NOT a rapist, and that it was Thanos' tampering with his mind that had damaged his powers causing those unintended effects. It ended with Eros making a heroic sacrifice to give up his pleasure powers so that nothing like that would happen again, and him vowing to make amends to the people that were unintentionally harmed.

So, all in all, the SHE-HULK storyline left him in a positive place--his reputation restored, him being the hero and trying to make things right, and (for those people who found him 'creepy') the removal of the powers that people misunderstood. In a way, that SHE-HULK storyline was inevitable--and even necessary. The character already had a bad reputation among some readers due to misunderstanding of both his powers and his personality (just because Eros has the power does NOT automatically mean he is abusing it). The SHE-HULK arc addressed those issues head on, and cleared the matter up once and for all by showing specifically that he does NOT rape people.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the removal of the pleasure powers. On the one hand, I appreciate that Slott was trying to get rid of an aspect of the character that was being frequently misinterpreted in order to get rid of this "date rapist" image that some readers were determined to cast him in. However, I really liked the pleasure powers in that they were something very unique to Starfox, which made him stand out from the other strong-guys-who-fly, and I thought it was a rather positive thing that he was able to resolve conflict in a NON-violent manner sometimes.

Perhaps they can find some sort of middle ground, to bring the pleasure powers back, but have them be less subtle and more blatant--to get rid of the notion of him manipulating people without their knowledge. Perhaps they could bring back his pleasure zap as something similar to the power zap of Orgasmo (from that parody movie of a superhero who disables his enemies with a ray gun that gives them a burst of orgasmic pleasure).

I think everyone knows that Starfox is my favorite character and I basically have a PhD in Starfox. (Not that it's hard since he's had less than 200 appearances.) Drawn him, written stories about him, cosplayed as him, had a custom shirt made . . .

You've cosplayed as him? Cool! I don't think I have ever seen a Starfox cosplayer at any of the cons I've been to.

I love how he's so bubbly but really by all accounts shouldn't be given how traumatic his back story is. It's gotta make you wonder what's going on in his head.

Yeah, Eros makes a deliberate effort to counter-balance his brother, both in term of physically opposing Thanos' schemes but also in terms of how he lives his life by the complete opposite philosophy to Thanos' destructive ways.

Like you say, Starfox is so refreshing with his positive and fun outlook to everything. Despite some of the darkness in his background, he's not one of those grim-n-gritty
characters; he's just looking for the thrill and excitement of new adventures!

In no canon appearance other than the She-Hulk storyline does he have the ability to make people attracted to him or like him in any way - he can only make them feel good.

Well, the things were somewhat linked together. We saw in Stern's AVENGERS run him using his pleasure power on criminals in a "I'm your friend; you don't want to fight me" sort of way. You're right that the power itself was specifically stimulating the pleasure centres--but it sometimes manifested in different ways, depending on a) how he was using it and b) how strong a zap he gave them (sometimes we saw people lose consciousness completely because he overloaded their pleasure centre).

I love that he's an empath (Solo Avengers #21, Silver Surfer Annual #5, Avengers: Celestial Quest #4) and so has that connection to emotion and that potential psionic power. His brother and his father are so powerful but he doesn't seem to be. Maybe he is - or maybe there's some other reason why he's not. We've seen him do some other crazy one-off psionic stuff (Avengers: Galactic Storm, SSA #5 again, ugh whatever the issue number of Avengers where he single-handedly takes out Nebula and her crew by staring at them until they pass out . . .)

Yeah, that would be the example I meant of his overloading people with pleasure. We didn't usually see him zap people that hard though.

Also, I love how funny/light his sexuality is played up. Which of course leads us to is he really, like, cishet? 'Cause I think he's way more like Jack Harkness, you know - pansexual flirty space explorer. That's what he's all about, after all, Greek god of love and all that. Except hotter. Like, he's supposed to be sexier than the sexiest man you can possibly think of, and that's awesome. It's a fun way to throw the women a bone - an alien from an egalitarian society who just likes hooking up, no strings attached - he very much respects women in his appearances and is shown to be absolutely capable of forming meaningful, non-sexual relationships with them (even when they do have sex - like with She-Hulk). He could totally be played up as the male beefcake version of all the T&A cheesecake gratuitous sexuality we see the female characters posed up in.

Absolutely agreed on all counts! As for Eros' possible bisexual/pansexual nature, I have often wondered if Eros had anything to do with Living Lightning accepting his own sexuality and coming out as gay. After all, prior to serving on the Avengers Asteroid Base, Miguel had girlfriends. But after his stint on the asteroid base--where we were told Eros was going to visit and keep them company from time to time--Miguel ended up coming out as gay. I've often suspected Eros and Miguel had some off-panel fling that made Miguel realize his true self.

UGH I just love this character so much AND THEY'RE BRINGING HIM BACK I'M SO EXCITED Eros! Eros! EROS! EROS! EROSSSSS!!!!

LOL. Yeah, that pretty much sums up my own reaction when I saw that announcement. I think I scared my dog with my sudden shout of joy. lol

[Zero Hunter]

I don't think Slott did that at all. He may have set out to do that but did not pull it off. The minute he did the whole date rapist trial story he permantly labeled the character. It is the same thing with Pym being tagged forever as a wife beater event thought he only hit her one time in the middle of a nervous breakdown. Starfox will always be labeled as the space rapist because of that one story by Slott to a lot of comic readers. It really did make the character toxic for a very long time.

[CaTigeReptile]

I don't think Slott did that at all. He may have set out to do that but did not pull it off. The minute he did the whole date rapist trial story he permantly labeled the character. It is the same thing with Pym being tagged forever as a wife beater event thought he only hit her one time in the middle of a nervous breakdown. Starfox will always be labeled as the space rapist because of that one story by Slott to a lot of comic readers. It really did make the character toxic for a very long time.

I agree with this. There were so many other ways to fix this problem without a date rape trial storyline that also by all accounts gave him an incredibly unlikable and out-of-character personality. I had mentioned a pretty easy fix early on: just make the power unpleasant for him to use.

I also take grand issue with the idea that women don't have sexual agency and would not choose to have a casual one-night stand with Eros. It all relates back to the idea of women actually not liking/wanting sex, or always being the victims of sex. It panders to the social stereotype that men are predatory by nature and that women should be afraid of them. It also perpetuates the idea that men can't be victims by completely overlooking other things one would have to consider if he had "seduction-powers:" How old was he when they manifested? Who was he with? Was he able to instantly and completely control them? Or was he eight years old, alone with his brother (or something equally as terrifying)?

It's important to look at that as if Eros were a female character. How would a similar storyline play out? I'm almost certain she'd be the victim. She'd also be a sexual fantasy type of character, just like female characters who actually do have the power to force people to want to have sex with them - i.e. Amora. And then what's up with Daken?!

It reminds me of a storyline in Captain Marvel v3 (I think), where a Kree woman named Una-Rogg essentially uses mind control to rape Genis. The storyline then revolves around how Genis is a jerk for not wanting to rescue her from having her actual seduction powers taken away, which she had abused. How is she a victim? Because of society's view that women cannot rape and essentially that men cannot be raped, even when the woman is controlling his mind.

It's like how Dan Slott also felt it necessary to give She-Hulk an excuse for her promiscuity - something or another about her Hulk hormones making her extra-horny. I'm sorry, but why does she need some reason to like hooking up? Is it some kind of disorder for a woman to enjoy having casual sex?

Again, if Eros were female, she'd certainly have some "excuse" for her sexuality, too - something like the pleasure power sucks away her own pleasure . . . oxytocin or something . . . and sex is the easiest way to replenish it, because god forbid a woman just like sex - or on the flipside, a man not always wanting to have sex with everyone all the time.

I am a bit hung up on that "just say his pleasure power is unpleasant for him to use" aspect because it's just such an easy fix.

Another thing about the empathy: That could easily be the reason why he's so good with finding sexual partners. He can already sense how they feel about him and thus gauge his success before he even makes an attempt. That idea amuses me.

P.S. I am also totally in the "Eros helped Miguel discover his sexuality" camp. That's what Eros does after all, isn't it?

Also, here's this from Stern, because it's vaguely related. This is the panel before the Beyonder makes Nebula & co. disappear. Eros did in fact just use his pleasure powers on Kehl before this, so it possibly could be referencing the idea of Eros being a 'victim of his own powers.'

[Dermie]

I also take grand issue with the idea that women don't have sexual agency and would not choose to have a casual one-night stand with Eros.

But, again, the story made it clear that women DID choose to have casual one-night stands with Eros. Several of them came up as witnesses in the case, and said that their experience with him was wonderful, and they'd happily do it again.

It reminds me of a storyline in Captain Marvel v3 (I think), where a Kree woman named Una-Rogg essentially uses mind control to rape Genis. The storyline then revolves around how Genis is a jerk for not wanting to rescue her from having her actual seduction powers taken away, which she had abused. How is she a victim? Because of society's view that women cannot rape and essentially that men cannot be raped, even when the woman is controlling his mind.

Peter David's intention for that one was that it was supposed to be a metaphor for female genital mutilation in Africa--that the Kree were doing this to ALL their women (not just Una specifically, for abusing the power), and that was why Genis was a jerk for not doing anything about; because it was abuse against all of the women of that race. Unfortunately, since Una-Rogg herself was a villain that mis-used that power, it did end up muddying the issue somewhat.

It's like how Dan Slott also felt it necessary to give She-Hulk an excuse for her promiscuity - something or another about her Hulk hormones making her extra-horny. I'm sorry, but why does she need some reason to like hooking up? Is it some kind of disorder for a woman to enjoy having casual sex?

Actually, Dan Slott made the exact argument you are making; that there is nothing wrong with a woman enjoying casual sex and that there is a horrible double standard when She-Hulk has lots of sex partners vs when Tony Stark has lots of sex partners. He made that argument repeatedly, both in-story and in interviews, message board discussions, etc.

The only thing that issue of SHE-HULK said was that in She-Hulk form she is less inhibited than she is as Jen Walters (something that had already been well-established by many other writers long before that point), so that she was more likely to have casual sex as She-Hulk than she was in human form. That's all. Its still Jen/She-Hulk choosing to have casual sex...she is just more of a free-spirit in She-Hulk mode.

Another thing about the empathy: That could easily be the reason why he's so good with finding sexual partners. He can already sense how they feel about him and thus gauge his success before he even makes an attempt. That idea amuses me.

I like that idea.

P.S. I am also totally in the "Eros helped Miguel discover his sexuality" camp. That's what Eros does after all, isn't it?

Exactly.

[Dermie]

I don't think Slott did that at all. He may have set out to do that but did not pull it off. The minute he did the whole date rapist trial story he permantly labeled the character. It is the same thing with Pym being tagged forever as a wife beater event thought he only hit her one time in the middle of a nervous breakdown. Starfox will always be labeled as the space rapist because of that one story by Slott to a lot of comic readers. It really did make the character toxic for a very long time.

Perhaps, but I would argue that most of the people who have stuck him with that label ALREADY had that image of him before the trial storyline. Unlike the Pym/wife-beater stuff, those comments and jokes about Starfox were already being made before the SHE-HULK story happened. You're right that having a storyline about it may have brought it to people's attention more than it was before--but the fact remains that some people had already decided that Starfox was "creepy", or a date-rapist, etc. Their minds were already made up--so it didn't really matter what the SHE-HULK story said; they'll believe what they want to anyway.

[Mark]

The date rape storyline damaged both characters, it turned Starfox into a date rapist and She-Hulk into a hypocrite who stopped the trial when she suspected that her client had used her powers on him, at that point she junked the legal system and beat him up. After that I dropped the book for a few issues I think, I do remember he was dragged back to Titan by his father because Jen was too hard on him and the woman in the trial had to just fade away because he was out of the jurisdiction. Making date rape a joke was one of Slot's low points, if not the lowest point for the book. If they later blamed it all on Thanos in a quick retcon I can't say I'm surprised.

[Zero Hunter]

I dropped She Hulk after that story line myself too. It was just so heavy handed and made a mess of both characters to me. Slott might have had good intentions, but his method of going about it was just a horrible mess that destroyed a character who up until then had just been a lovable goofball who liked to have fun.

[Mark]

I guess that's the question, if they are going to bring him back will this work against him?

[CaTigeReptile]

But, again, the story made it clear that women DID choose to have casual one-night stands with Eros. Several of them came up as witnesses in the case, and said that their experience with him was wonderful, and they'd happily do it again.

My understanding was that they were apparently under Starfox's (unconscious, we later find out) influence to say those things. And how were these women found, anyway? Did they put an ad out in the newspaper "if you've had sex with Starfox, please contact us?" But I shouldn't start picking at the actual court procedural issues.

Peter David's intention for that one was that it was supposed to be a metaphor for female genital mutilation in Africa--that the Kree were doing this to ALL their women (not just Una specifically, for abusing the power), and that was why Genis was a jerk for not doing anything about; because it was abuse against all of the women of that race. Unfortunately, since Una-Rogg herself was a villain that mis-used that power, it did end up muddying the issue somewhat.

Absolutely, I understood that reference completely. However I'd say "muddying the issue somewhat" is a huge understatement. It gave off the impression of "well, if we DON'T mutilate them, look what happens" and almost seemed like it justified what the Kree were doing! Definitely the wrong message!

Perhaps, but I would argue that most of the people who have stuck him with that label ALREADY had that image of him before the trial storyline. Unlike the Pym/wife-beater stuff, those comments and jokes about Starfox were already being made before the SHE-HULK story happened. You're right that having a storyline about it may have brought it to people's attention more than it was before--but the fact remains that some people had already decided that Starfox was "creepy", or a date-rapist, etc. Their minds were already made up--so it didn't really matter what the SHE-HULK story said; they'll believe what they want to anyway.

I think it kind of validated them if anything - which, of course, is what made Starfox toxic. Before it was like a meme or something, and that was the image people had but it wasn't acknowledged or even really justified by canon material; this went ahead and gave it merit. And if the only way thought up to fix this apparent problem (man with pleasure powers has a lot of sex, thus he must be a rapist) was to rid him of his powers, then that's kind of sad. And revolting.

I said it before and I'll say it again, there were much much easier fixes to this apparent suspicion that would have been low-key and automatically make the whole possibility of him using his powers to rape people ridiculous. Fixes ranging from past experience to how the powers actually function to the specifics of how they make people feel . . . but getting rid of his powers is imo like you might as well just kill him off.

The date rape storyline damaged both characters, it turned Starfox into a date rapist and She-Hulk into a hypocrite who stopped the trial when she suspected that her client had used her powers on him, at that point she junked the legal system and beat him up. After that I dropped the book for a few issues I think, I do remember he was dragged back to Titan by his father because Jen was too hard on him and the woman in the trial had to just fade away because he was out of the jurisdiction. Making date rape a joke was one of Slot's low points, if not the lowest point for the book. If they later blamed it all on Thanos in a quick retcon I can't say I'm surprised.

Yep - not only making a joke about date rape, but then pulling the whole "oh but he was totally innocent" and not following up with the actual victim. False rape accusations are basically myths. They just don't happen - because of how absolutely awful and demoralizing and humiliating rape trials are, especially because of the extreme amount of victim-blaming and suspicion in our culture. And you brought up another very annoying point - that She-Hulk assaulted him in the middle of a courthouse. That's pretty illegal - and was played for jokes. Why would that at all be funny? Like seriously? Because it's funny when a woman beats up a man, even if she's so much stronger than him, because that's "not how it works?" Again, if the genders were reversed, would it be funny?

It also was blamed on Thanos, I think. Another thing I don't understand about the storyline is that if this were a possibility the whole time, why didn't it happen a thousand years ago?

I think they could get away with it in a funny way, maybe. Maybe it was a Skrull who had something against Eros - say, he helped Heater Delight escape from a Skrull pimp or something, lol. They could even do the same kind of thing that was in the original Warlock story with Heater Delight: Eros, say, promised the Skrull pimp absolute pleasure if he let Heater go, and so then Eros makes him pass out. Thus, Pimp Skrull wanted revenge. Hehehe.

In fact, it DID take place during Secret Invasion, didn't it? (I could be wrong).

Maybe Eros was in the Darkforce Dimension trying to rescue Genis. I think that could be a cool story, too.

I do want to say though that this isn't, like, Dan Slott's doing entirely. This had to get the OK from editorial. I've heard through the grapevine (i.e. read someone who said it on this board) that Joe Quesada wasn't fond of Starfox - much like he wasn't fond of Wendell, Genis, and Surfer, and that it's no coincidence two of them died, one was disgraced and a third was swept under the mat.

I guess that's the question, if they are going to bring him back will this work against him?

Exactly, I don't know how they're gonna pull this one off unless they completely reboot him or get rid of his powers, or pretend the She-Hulk storyline never happened, in which case they'll have to go ahead and find another way to keep the "He's a rapist!" meme-rs at bay.

[Anthony Shaw]

Exactly! Stern writes him so cute - but I swear there was always a little hint of something else in there.

One of my favorite panels is from Avengers:Infinity, which Stern wrote. It's an awkward moment that pretty much sums up a whole lot of his character:

*

*I have so many Starfox panels for when I did my thesis for my PhD in Starfox, obviously.


I'm really starting to think we're gonna see him in the MCU. If you had asked me last week I would have scoffed at you bitterly, but now . . . Ahahaha I'm still so excited!

But I'm sure if/as he gains popularity I'll start to grow territorial, especially since as a female comic book fan there is a certain amount of disbelief/quizzing one is subjected to that I by sheer luck in being an Eros fan have managed to avoid. I don't want to start getting the whole "oh you only know him from the movies" thing.

At SDCC there was only one guy who reacted less than absolutely positively to the Eros cosplay - a probably 17-year-old or so who said "Oh, I think he's creepy." It wasn't three minutes in until he admitted he'd only read a cracked.com article about him. (And the tune of those articles will change soon!)

Oh, there was another guy who asked me what Starfox's real name was, and when I told him he said "good" like he was impressed with me.

But I was really surprised and delighted by the recognition and positivity I got for it - at least 20+ people over the weekend exclaimed "Starfox! Awesome!" or "Wait, are you Eros?!" at me, and 10+ took my picture. Most of them, but certainly not all, were of the age range that probably read him as a kid.

So in other words I think he's gonna have his day soon. It's about time!

Please keep posting images.

[Anthony Shaw]

I would kill for a Hercules/Starfox mini series. They could be like the Blue Beetle and Booster Gold of the Avengers

That would be a great story. I think they would be a lot more fun than Wonder Man & Beast.

[Dermie]

My understanding was that they were apparently under Starfox's (unconscious, we later find out) influence to say those things.

That was the one lawyer's accusation--but there was never anything confirming it. And there were also dozens of women outside the court as well, shouting out their support--outside of what should be the range of Eros' influence.

I said it before and I'll say it again, there were much much easier fixes to this apparent suspicion that would have been low-key and automatically make the whole possibility of him using his powers to rape people ridiculous. Fixes ranging from past experience to how the powers actually function to the specifics of how they make people feel . . . but getting rid of his powers is imo like you might as well just kill him off.

As noted above, I was not a fan of getting rid of his powers either. I appreciate what Slott was trying to do with it, but I prefer that Eros keep his unique power, and that they just find some other way to eliminate the suspicion around it.

Yep - not only making a joke about date rape, but then pulling the whole "oh but he was totally innocent" and not following up with the actual victim. False rape accusations are basically myths. They just don't happen - because of how absolutely awful and demoralizing and humiliating rape trials are, especially because of the extreme amount of victim-blaming and suspicion in our culture. And you brought up another very annoying point - that She-Hulk assaulted him in the middle of a courthouse. That's pretty illegal - and was played for jokes. Why would that at all be funny? Like seriously? Because it's funny when a woman beats up a man, even if she's so much stronger than him, because that's "not how it works?" Again, if the genders were reversed, would it be funny?

I don't want the thread to get too sidetracked into just talking about the date rape storyline (after all, its over and now they're bringing Starfox back--so let's move on to a brighter tomorrow), but just a few points here. The SHE-HULK series had a comedic tone in general, but I would argue against the idea that it made date rape a joke. The subject matter was treated seriously--even though the book itself has a lighter tone (although even at that, that arc was one of the more serious of the series overall). And She-Hulk did not attack him in the courtroom--Eros was not in the courthouse at the time. He had fled from the holding area that he was supposed to be staying in during the trail--she ran out of the courtroom and pursued him (and then beat him up, over her mistaken assumption of his guilt--definitely on not one of Jen's finer moments).

It also was blamed on Thanos, I think. Another thing I don't understand about the storyline is that if this were a possibility the whole time, why didn't it happen a thousand years ago?

Because what Thanos did to him was a recent event. Thanos (or rather, one of Thanos' many bio-duplicates) and his agent kidnapped Eros just a few weeks or months before the trial occurred, and tampered with his mind...which is what led to all of the problems.

Exactly, I don't know how they're gonna pull this one off unless they completely reboot him or get rid of his powers, or pretend the She-Hulk storyline never happened, in which case they'll have to go ahead and find another way to keep the "He's a rapist!" meme-rs at bay.

I don't see why the SHE-HULK storyline needs to have any bearing on his return at all. That arc was several years ago now--its not recent continuity that needs to be referenced. The events in it were resolved at the end of the arc, so there aren't loose ends to tie-up. We can just pick up with Starfox where he is now, and go forward from there.

[CaTigeReptile]

I don't see why the SHE-HULK storyline needs to have any bearing on his return at all. That arc was several years ago now--its not recent continuity that needs to be referenced. The events in it were resolved at the end of the arc, so there aren't loose ends to tie-up. We can just pick up with Starfox where he is now, and go forward from there.

Thanks for clearing some of the stuff up about the actual plot regarding when he was beat up (though I still maintain that Thanos would have done this thousands of years ago if he were to do it at all, and of course suddenly moving him to a different location in the middle of the trial would be an instant mistrial) - and I agree, it'd be nice to have a discussion about Starfox without it being about a decade-old storyline. But if we pick up from where he is now, he doesn't have his pleasure power and everyone thinks he's just generally a douchey guy, right? I think it'd be easy to give him back the power via some handwavey restoration, but it's the vibe of "ugh this guy is a dick" that the story seemed to add that's harder to shake. That and where has he been all this time?

Okay but yes I agree with this idea of moving on past the She-Hulk storyline because Starfox is awesome and he's gonna have his day! I also wonder if it increases the chances of a return of Genis or Phyla or both. I absolutely loved his Captain Marvel v4 appearance (his most recent appearance prior to the She-Hulk appearance), because of the art and his relationship to his adoptive (I guess) children.

Speaking of which, I really love Elysius and hope she plays a role in the Graphic Novel, too - and if she does, I hope she isn't killed off!

Please keep posting images.

Don't encourage me. I have so many. So, so many. So much time . . . so worth it, though.

So here, have some Herc and Eros moments.


This one cracks me up. Eros what are you doing shhhh


I just imagine Herc's slap on the shoulder causing Eros to faceplant.


Awwww

This thread is awesome! I get to talk about Starfox all the time and post pictures this is great!

[THANOSRULES]

Love starfox!


Just wanted to say how ridiculous it was he has not been used or even that Slotts stuff was meant to kill him as a character...whats crazy is most everyone think Thanos is such a great character and he vivisected his mother and killed half of the universe population!

Seriously someone could write Starfox as a character needing redemption and this could be a driving force for the character.

I'm glad Rick Remender is going to take a look at him.

[Mark]

They'll most likely pretend that it never happened, after all the good guys have done horrible things to each other since then, it's almost become a marvel tradition that their heroes are the worst of any bunch around, so date rape might rank low on the list, but for a company that's trying to push the women-friendly theme this is not a good guy to bring back. Also the way this author treated the Wasp, Wanda and Rogue doesn't give me a lot of confidence.