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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnafan View Post
    The legacy character doesn't necessarily have to use the Wonder Woman name. Power Girl, Huntress, Fury and Jade are a few examples of JSA legacy characters that didn't assume the names of their predecessors. Far as making Wonder Woman/Diana a legacy, she already has a one: Donna Troy and Wonder Girl. Superman and Batman have legacies, why not WW?

    The major role the JSA took on in later incarnations was legacies and training the next generation of heroes. Any modern-day JSA line-up is going to have to contain legacy characters, unless we're looking at a JSA primarily stuck in the 1940's or, the members are all immortal or slow-aging.
    No, I meant I do not want Diana to ever be the second superhero in Man's World to be called "Wonder Woman." She is not a legacy hero as the term is popularly used, never has been because she was created to be Wonder Woman by Marston and has largely held that role uninterrupted, so time traveling Hippolyta is a big no-no for me. And I would not like her to be the second Amazon hero even if the first one wasn't called Wonder Woman, her whole story is supposed to be about being the first Amazon to leave Paradise, so I don't see the gain in making up a new one. Donna and Cassie are not legacies in that capacity either, though they are connected to her. Fury carries on her legacy in a way, but obviously on her own terms like Power Girl and Huntress. She is not called Wonder Woman II or wear the costume.

    The JSA runs on legacy, but Wonder Woman doesn't. At least not in the same way. Like she can train Donna as a sidekick named Wonder Girl, but Donna will grow up and carry on the mission her own way separate from Wonder Woman. So yes, a modern JSA would have to have legacies, but if Diana isn't around during World War 2, she isn't going to have a legacy on the team and I definitely do not want her to be a legacy of anyone else. For Fury to work in her original context, I think the JSA really needs to be on Earth-2.

  2. #17
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnafan View Post
    The legacy character doesn't necessarily have to use the Wonder Woman name. Power Girl, Huntress, Fury and Jade are a few examples of JSA legacy characters that didn't assume the names of their predecessors. Far as making Wonder Woman/Diana a legacy, she already has a one: Donna Troy and Wonder Girl. Superman and Batman have legacies, why not WW?
    But there's a difference between Diana be the start of a legacy (such as with Wonder Girl) and Diana BEING a legacy by following in the footsteps of a previous Amazon superheroine, which is what would happen if there is/was a different Amazon replacing Wonder Woman in the 1940s JSA.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    But there's a difference between Diana be the start of a legacy (such as with Wonder Girl) and Diana BEING a legacy by following in the footsteps of a previous Amazon superheroine, which is what would happen if there is/was a different Amazon replacing Wonder Woman in the 1940s JSA.
    Agreed. Also, if Diana were the second amazon to enter the modern world, there would have constant comparisons between old and new which would need to be retconned in or become common conversation all of a sudden.

  4. #19
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    Personally I feel the JSA should either have Wonder Woman, or as much a direct analogue as possible. The argument that Diana being a retconned legacy character cheapens her by being given a predecessor, doesn't hold much water for me. From a real world perspective, the retconned predecessor is going to be seen as the spin-off character. "She" would only exist to fill the void in the fiction left behind by choosing to have Diana start in the present. From an in-universe perspective I'm not sure Diana loses enough by not being the first Amazon to leave Paradise to justify outright denying the JSA a direct replacement. For whatever reason, neither Quality's Ms America or the Golden Age Fury seemed to have had clicked as replacement members, while Hippolyta did.

    Post-crisis, I feel they should have just been given another Amazon, either from Themyscira, or a rogue good member of Bana-Mighdall for a stand in. That's the kind of character the Golden Age Fury should have been. As a Themysciran, she simply would have ultimately chosen to leave behind Themyscira having fallen in love and having her daughter, Infinity Inc's Fury. She need not have had any real contact with Diana growing up. She also could have been used to help patch Donna Troy's origin by having her be the one to rescue her from the fire and bring her to Themyscira. She certainly wouldn't had used the Wonder Woman name, but other wise make her as much a stand in as possible to maintain the continuity. If you absolutely dead set on minimizing Themyscira's possible outside contact prior to Diana leaving, making their member come from the Bana could have possibly also worked. May I ask how those objecting to the JSA getting another Amazon from Themyscira, would you also object to them instead getting one from the Bana instead?

    I also never had a problem with Hippolyta acting as the Golden Age Wonder Woman, but felt the time travel added an unnecessary layer. If Time travel was to involved it should have been Diana going back in time and getting stranded for duration of her JSA membership. At one time I would have strongly favored removing the time travel element and just having Hippolyta leave the Island during the forties and retire with the rest of the JSA in 1951, so as to maintain the continuity while streamlining it. That was however two reboots and over eight years ago, and with a clean slate I'm more fairly able to evaluate the the pro's and cons of having Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman. I'm able to see enough merit in the counterpoints to consider other options.

    With a clean slate, I could definitely get behind the idea of just having Diana be immortal and start her career during WWII or even WWI to mirror the movie continuity. Her being veteran member for the Justice League the others look to for leadership and advice doesn't bother me. And for bonus points it can also be used to enable Donna to go back to her original origin in full with no alterations. How you deal with the non-immortal supporting cast members is a question for debate. Though right now we're not working with a clean slate. While I'm not really happy with the history we got with rebirth, I feel it's bit too soon for another complete reboot. Wilson is currently working towards getting Themyscira reopened. The only thing that really needs to actively retconned and fixed is Donna and getting her back to being Diana's adopted sister and getting rid of this evil clone weapon nonsense for good.

    For our other potential existing candidates, we have Exoristos, Hessia, and Myrina. Back when I though they might have actually planned out things in advanced, I thought they might be planning make Myrina fill the spot since she had been mentioned to have fought some golden age wonder woman villains(Red Panzer, Minister Blizzard) and she'd been established to have been in the outside world since roman times. Robinson moving Diana's and Jason's births, and by extension Grail's, and Myrina's leaving the island to modern times sinks that. I'm kind of glad because I really did not like Myrina, and I don't think I can see her being a member of the JSA in good standing. My personal choice with these options would be Exoristos as I really liked her in Demon Knights, but we have to find a way to get her to the forties from the middle ages by some means.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    I'd enjoy a JSA Wonder Woman (can be Hippolyta, Diana, or somebody else). No time travel stuff, though.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    Personally I feel the JSA should either have Wonder Woman, or as much a direct analogue as possible. The argument that Diana being a retconned legacy character cheapens her by being given a predecessor, doesn't hold much water for me. From a real world perspective, the retconned predecessor is going to be seen as the spin-off character. "She" would only exist to fill the void in the fiction left behind by choosing to have Diana start in the present. From an in-universe perspective I'm not sure Diana loses enough by not being the first Amazon to leave Paradise to justify outright denying the JSA a direct replacement. For whatever reason, neither Quality's Ms America or the Golden Age Fury seemed to have had clicked as replacement members, while Hippolyta did.

    Post-crisis, I feel they should have just been given another Amazon, either from Themyscira, or a rogue good member of Bana-Mighdall for a stand in. That's the kind of character the Golden Age Fury should have been. As a Themysciran, she simply would have ultimately chosen to leave behind Themyscira having fallen in love and having her daughter, Infinity Inc's Fury. She need not have had any real contact with Diana growing up. She also could have been used to help patch Donna Troy's origin by having her be the one to rescue her from the fire and bring her to Themyscira. She certainly wouldn't had used the Wonder Woman name, but other wise make her as much a stand in as possible to maintain the continuity. If you absolutely dead set on minimizing Themyscira's possible outside contact prior to Diana leaving, making their member come from the Bana could have possibly also worked. May I ask how those objecting to the JSA getting another Amazon from Themyscira, would you also object to them instead getting one from the Bana instead?

    I also never had a problem with Hippolyta acting as the Golden Age Wonder Woman, but felt the time travel added an unnecessary layer. If Time travel was to involved it should have been Diana going back in time and getting stranded for duration of her JSA membership. At one time I would have strongly favored removing the time travel element and just having Hippolyta leave the Island during the forties and retire with the rest of the JSA in 1951, so as to maintain the continuity while streamlining it. That was however two reboots and over eight years ago, and with a clean slate I'm more fairly able to evaluate the the pro's and cons of having Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman. I'm able to see enough merit in the counterpoints to consider other options.

    With a clean slate, I could definitely get behind the idea of just having Diana be immortal and start her career during WWII or even WWI to mirror the movie continuity. Her being veteran member for the Justice League the others look to for leadership and advice doesn't bother me. And for bonus points it can also be used to enable Donna to go back to her original origin in full with no alterations. How you deal with the non-immortal supporting cast members is a question for debate. Though right now we're not working with a clean slate. While I'm not really happy with the history we got with rebirth, I feel it's bit too soon for another complete reboot. Wilson is currently working towards getting Themyscira reopened. The only thing that really needs to actively retconned and fixed is Donna and getting her back to being Diana's adopted sister and getting rid of this evil clone weapon nonsense for good.

    For our other potential existing candidates, we have Exoristos, Hessia, and Myrina. Back when I though they might have actually planned out things in advanced, I thought they might be planning make Myrina fill the spot since she had been mentioned to have fought some golden age wonder woman villains(Red Panzer, Minister Blizzard) and she'd been established to have been in the outside world since roman times. Robinson moving Diana's and Jason's births, and by extension Grail's, and Myrina's leaving the island to modern times sinks that. I'm kind of glad because I really did not like Myrina, and I don't think I can see her being a member of the JSA in good standing. My personal choice with these options would be Exoristos as I really liked her in Demon Knights, but we have to find a way to get her to the forties from the middle ages by some means.
    Well said. SiegePerilous02 - I see your point about Diana not being a legacy character and apologize for misunderstanding. I agree that Diana should be the original and NOT the legacy. Although, I agree with other comments and thought Hippolyta was a better fit than Miss America for the JSA, it did bother me that Diana was not the original WW.

    Artemisfanboy - I LOVE the idea that immortal Diana can restore the Donna origin among other points. Plus, as you say, it goes along with the movie (and 70's TV show). The Post Crisis WW retcons created a continuity nightmare for Diana, her supporting cast and Donna in NTT. The simplest answer is usually the best one. Instead of Diana giving up her mortality, she is immortal and left the island to help win the war in WW11, joining up with other costumed heroes of the age. Simple. No retcons. Immortality allows Diana to be active in the 40s through the present. Why make the story more confusing that it has to be?

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnafan View Post
    . . . The simplest answer is usually the best one. Instead of Diana giving up her mortality, she is immortal and left the island to help win the war in WW11, joining up with other costumed heroes of the age. Simple. No retcons. Immortality allows Diana to be active in the 40s through the present. Why make the story more confusing that it has to be?
    NOTE: It's normally "WWII" (Roman numerals, typed with uppercase "i"s) or "WW2", not "World War Eleven" (WW11).

    Be that as it may, making her immortal in the comic books and having more than three quarters of a century of experience over Kal-El and Bruce then disrupts the "Trinity" symmetry. It makes her more like the great-grandmother of the Justice League (though not in her physical appearance).

    She hadn't been an ancient immortal in the comic books. That's one movie change they don't need to force into the comics.

  8. #23
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    From all of the artwork I've seen, not only will there be no WW in the JSA, but there are no women.

    Very disappointing.

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    From all of the artwork I've seen, not only will there be no WW in the JSA, but there are no women.

    Very disappointing.
    But, unfortunately, logical, if you basically can't use the two women who were a part of the group in the past.

    Another "replacement Wonder Woman" probably wouldn't go over well among long-time fans of the original JSA.

    Perhaps the situation will be rectified later on by adding females to any "present day" grouping of a Justice Society of America. But as for the history, hadn't there already been too many retcons?

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    The situation for women in JSA makes me wonder if female characters aren't generally hit harder by retcons and reboots? Not only that there are fewer of them in the first place, but that they proportionally tends to get a rawer deal than their male counterparts.

    While Donna and Hawkman (and Hawkgirl) are about on par with badly done retcons, none of the female characters (not even Wonder Woman) gets the relative care that has gone into crafting the character history of Batman, Superman, Flash, or the Green Lanterns, at least as far as I can tell.
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #26
    Fantastic Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Unless they move the JSA to it's proper Earth Two, I don't need another WW in the group. If it's DIana, it just messes things up. If it's another Amazon, it makes Diana leaving the island a little less special (plus most of the 62 stuff is out the door, Amazon-wise)

    I hope its taking place on another Earth. Things are cluttered enough as it is...lol

  12. #27
    Incredible Member NYCER's Avatar
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    How much more messed up can things get post Rebirth?

    Rucka rewrote Diana as a mortal after she left Themyscira. Then the movie comes out and BAM! - Diana is again an immortal demigoddess. Continuity be damned. It's beyond repair at this point anyway given how much DC has screwed around with it since the first CRISIS.

    So, I would not mind one bit if Diana preceded Superman and Batman by being a founding member of both the JSA and the JLA/JL.

    To me, it's just course correction finally to give Wonder Woman her propers after being neglected by DC for decades in favor of Superman and Batman. I would love it if Wonder Woman truly supplants the other two members of the DC Trinity in stature and experience as a superhero.

  13. #28
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    Default The JSA is coming back! Time for the GA WW too!

    Hey WW fans,

    The Justice Society is coming back, I believe itís time for the Golden age Wonder Woman to return with them. There should be no excuse given that the JSA version shouldnít exist. Sheís a vital part of the team and historically speaking, the team seems listless without her. I have no problem with another version of Diana existing along with our modern version. Maybe we should have the JSA exist on another earth which would give Diana a place to shine in the WW2 era. Your thoughts?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCER View Post
    How much more messed up can things get post Rebirth?

    Rucka rewrote Diana as a mortal after she left Themyscira. Then the movie comes out and BAM! - Diana is again an immortal demigoddess. Continuity be damned. It's beyond repair at this point anyway given how much DC has screwed around with it since the first CRISIS.

    So, I would not mind one bit if Diana preceded Superman and Batman by being a founding member of both the JSA and the JLA/JL.

    To me, it's just course correction finally to give Wonder Woman her propers after being neglected by DC for decades in favor of Superman and Batman. I would love it if Wonder Woman truly supplants the other two members of the DC Trinity in stature and experience as a superhero.
    I posted this a hour or so ago so hereís my take. Iím really shocked to see so many against JSA WW coming back. I guess itís ok for Batman and Superman to have so many versions of their characters but itís not ok for Diana to have any. Hereís the news flash people, continuity is not coming back. Itís also well known there can be different worlds where she should be the only WW. While your theory is good I still believe that Diana needs more of a presence in DC.

  15. #30
    Incredible Member NYCER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    I posted this a hour or so ago so here’s my take. I’m really shocked to see so many against JSA WW coming back. I guess it’s ok for Batman and Superman to have so many versions of their characters but it’s not ok for Diana to have any. Here’s the news flash people, continuity is not coming back. It’s also well known there can be different worlds where she should be the only WW. While your theory is good I still believe that Diana needs more of a presence in DC.
    I concur. It's been such a struggle to be a Wonder Woman fan and supporter when Warner Bros. then DC pretty much treated her like a red headed stepchild for decades until her movie came out and was certified as a hit, which was a vindication for many of us Wonder Woman fans.

    Diana does need a larger presence in the DCU. One aspect of her publication that irritates me is the lack of any idea that Wonder Woman's legacy is everlasting like Superman's DC ONE MILLION notwithstanding. Only Superman has clear ties to the future via the Legion of Superheroes. Where is Diana's legacy 1,000 years from now? Even in Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT universe, the setting is just a few decades away from the present and her legacy there is not hers alone as it is inextricably tied to Superman because of their two offspring.

    So again, I hope they install Diana in the JSA in a substantial role and not as that team's secretary. That is one historical error that needs an overdue correction.

    This is DC's/Scott Snyder's chance to take a crack at fixing that mistake.

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