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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    I posted this a hour or so ago so here’s my take. I’m really shocked to see so many against JSA WW coming back. I guess it’s ok for Batman and Superman to have so many versions of their characters but it’s not ok for Diana to have any. Here’s the news flash people, continuity is not coming back. It’s also well known there can be different worlds where she should be the only WW. While your theory is good I still believe that Diana needs more of a presence in DC.
    As far as I know, Batman and Superman won't be a part of the JSA.

    So unless the JSA is on a different Earth, why in Zeus' name would you want to retcon Diana into being BOTH a WWII-era AND a "modern day" hero on the same Earth?

    And besides, don't forget, Diana wasn't really a fully-active "member" in the early days of the JSA. She was their recording secretary and didn't get her own separate chapter in the stories for quite a while!

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The situation for women in JSA makes me wonder if female characters aren't generally hit harder by retcons and reboots? Not only that there are fewer of them in the first place, but that they proportionally tends to get a rawer deal than their male counterparts.

    While Donna and Hawkman (and Hawkgirl) are about on par with badly done retcons, none of the female characters (not even Wonder Woman) gets the relative care that has gone into crafting the character history of Batman, Superman, Flash, or the Green Lanterns, at least as far as I can tell.
    Which is really sad when you realize that all those characters besides Batman still aren't doing so hot as far as crafting/honoring their history is concerned, especially Superman.

  3. #33
    Incredible Member NYCER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Which is really sad when you realize that all those characters besides Batman still aren't doing so hot as far as crafting/honoring their history is concerned, especially Superman.
    Superman is no longer Superman because whoever is handling him wants their lives as middle aged fathers reflected in the character, which holds no appeal to me whatsoever. And it's made the character selfish. In the books I read where Superman appears, he's always whining about "Lois! Jon!" instead of being selfless and putting the world first.

    Diana undoubtedly has suffered the most among the Trinity in terms of honoring her history. More people are aware of Diana now thanks to the movie, and as much as I love Patty Jenkins's work, that film too technically is a gigantic retcon culling together various elements of Wonder Woman's history (and excising important ones like the contest to become Themyscira's emissary; though in the film, it seemed everyone on the island knew Diana was "super Amazon" so the conclusion of any contest in which she participated was a foregone conclusion, but still).

    Geoff Johns really focused on his favorites to the detriment of other DC properties. He wasn't even interested in Wonder Woman until he became involved with developing the movie.

    Sad.
    Last edited by NYCER; 06-14-2019 at 01:48 PM.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    Hey WW fans,

    The Justice Society is coming back, I believe it’s time for the Golden age Wonder Woman to return with them. There should be no excuse given that the JSA version shouldn’t exist. She’s a vital part of the team and historically speaking, the team seems listless without her. I have no problem with another version of Diana existing along with our modern version. Maybe we should have the JSA exist on another earth which would give Diana a place to shine in the WW2 era. Your thoughts?
    If they exist on another Earth, yes.

    If not, then definitely no.

    And, honestly, is a "recording secretary" (which is what she initially was in the Golden Age stories, not taking an active part in the initial issues she was in) really a "vital part of the team"?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    If they exist on another Earth, yes.

    If not, then definitely no.

    And, honestly, is a "recording secretary" (which is what she initially was in the Golden Age stories, not taking an active part in the initial issues she was in) really a "vital part of the team"?
    Your details on the assessment of her membership are slightly off. She had regular solo chapter with the other members when she first joined in issues #11, and #13 and the framing sequences for #15 are practically a Wonder Woman chapter with her coming to rescue the rest of the JSA in their first encounter with Brainwave. Her status as a "secretary" had less to do with sexism and more to do with them adhering to real-life publishing rules they'd set for themselves where if a character received their own solo title they were suppose to leave the active membership. a few issues prior to adding Wonder Woman to the book they had run a poll with the readers asking which character from Sensation Comics they wanted added. The reason they didn't replace her with another character from sensation such as Wildcat or Mr Terrific as soon as she got her own title as they previously had when Green Lantern and Flash had was because they realized a large part of her appeal was that she was a woman and they didn't have any other heroine they could use to replace her. The invention of the secretary role was a compromise to allow her to remain a supporting character in the book's framing sequences. Over time these rules were relaxed with Flash and Green Lantern returning to the active roster in issue #35. When the individual chapter formula was dropped from Issue #38 onwards she was treated as a regular member from then on, and played an important role in that very story coming to the rescue of the rest of the JSA with resuscitating them with Purple Healing Ray. And then you've got some retroactive stories such as in All-Star Squadron or the Justice Society Returns where she takes a more normal role as a member of the team. Without her the team is missing a major female member. Something just feels off with her removed completely and not replaced.

    As for other potential women members particularly for a modern day formation, I'm assuming Stargirl will have her connections to the Starman legacy restored, and the presumed pre-flashpoint version of Power Girl we've seen trapped in that extradimensional space over in deathstroke would also be a member. I would also like to see that Black Canary gets her new 52 origin thrown out and modified version of her post crisis legacy restored, with Dinah Drake being the original Black Canary and a member of the JSA in the late forties/early fifties, and the current Dinah Lance Black Canary being her granddaughter or great granddaughter, to make her age reasonable.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    But they would also need a good reason for why she does that, and how long does she remain in the past to do that?
    That shouldn't be too hard.

    At some point early in Diana's career as Wonder Woman (probably pre-Justice League) she is thrown back in time somehow, due to some battle with a villain or an encounter with some temporal anomaly. She lands in 1941 and encounters the Justice Society. Believing initially that she's stuck in the past and will have to live out the decades to get to her proper timeline, she decides to join them and fight the good fight. She spends the next decade or so (or however long WW was actually a member of the team in the Golden Age) with the JSA and ultimately they help her get back to the present. Diana doesn't age, so that doesn't make a difference (I subscribe to her being an immortal Amazon, or at least long-lived by human standards even if she loses her 'immortality).

    You can even argue that Diana forgot about her trip to the past, or it was wiped out due to Manhattan's tampering and has been restored again. Or maybe Manhattan, in the end, changes DC history again and creates the temporal anomaly that sends Diana back to set history 'right' and restore the Golden Age Wonder Woman.

    Interestingly, with all the talk over in Doomsday Clock about Superman's history being pushed forward, I'm guessing the same applies to Wonder Woman too (and Batman for that matter).

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I like the idea of having Hippolyta as the JSA Wonder Woman.

    But the movie version of Diana has been WW for nearly a century

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I like the idea of having Hippolyta as the JSA Wonder Woman.

    But the movie version of Diana has been WW for nearly a century
    Well, since I'm assuming we're talking about the comic book version, I don't give a #### what is or isn't a part of the movie version.

    Having Hippolyta as the "Golden Age" Wonder Woman (via time travel) was strange but interesting solution back in the late 1990s, but really wouldn't make much sense now unless they go back and restore all the Byrne continuity. (And really, do you want DC to AGAIN majorly screw around with what is and isn't "canon" for Wonder Woman's backstory?)

  9. #39
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Well, since I'm assuming we're talking about the comic book version, I don't give a #### what is or isn't a part of the movie version.

    Having Hippolyta as the "Golden Age" Wonder Woman (via time travel) was strange but interesting solution back in the late 1990s, but really wouldn't make much sense now unless they go back and restore all the Byrne continuity. (And really, do you want DC to AGAIN majorly screw around with what is and isn't "canon" for Wonder Woman's backstory?)
    They don't have to do that, all they would need is to have Rebirth Hippolyta travel back in time. It was Messner-Loeb's run that set it up anyway when Hippolyta sacrificed Artemis to save Diana and eventually became Wonder Woman as a penance after Diana died in Byrne's run.

    Hippolyta is the Golden Age Wonder Woman I want to read about. She was great at it and I liked her relationship with Ted Grant. Something really interesting they could do is have her get pregnant in the past and give birth to Diana's half sister Lyta Grant...Fury. That's not happening for a number of reasons but it's a good idea regardless. At the most Hippolyta encountering Circe, Queen Clea and Villainy Inc. in the past only strengthens them in the present by adding more layers of depth and enmity.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCER View Post
    Diana undoubtedly has suffered the most among the Trinity in terms of honoring her history. More people are aware of Diana now thanks to the movie, and as much as I love Patty Jenkins's work, that film too technically is a gigantic retcon culling together various elements of Wonder Woman's history (and excising important ones like the contest to become Themyscira's emissary; though in the film, it seemed everyone on the island knew Diana was "super Amazon" so the conclusion of any contest in which she participated was a foregone conclusion, but still).

    Geoff Johns really focused on his favorites to the detriment of other DC properties. He wasn't even interested in Wonder Woman until he became involved with developing the movie.

    Sad.
    Her history not being honored is unfortunately not a recent problem, it pre-dates Rebirth and Johns quite a bit. And wasn't helped by the New 52 version.

    The film isn't retconning her history because in the context of the film, all her comic book history didn't happen and it's establishing her history for the DCEU. Picking various bits and pieces and putting together something new is how adaptations are meant to work. The lack of the contest isn't too bothersome to me, it keeps the pace moving and like you said, the Contest is pointless since she's so far ahead of the other Amazons. Having the Contest in the Perez run when she already had her powers was, IMO, kind of a mistake. I'd prefer the film's route of bypassing it or go the Year One/Golden Age route of having her be on more equal footing with the other Amazons before any additional powers are given.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Yeah, the contest serves various purposes, but the film managed to accomplish those in different ways. And also note that the contest is something that makes sense given a specific relation between the Amazons and the gods which isn't present in the movie.

    One purpose is to help define Diana's relationship with Hippolyta. Marston and Pérez did it by Hippolyta forbidding Diana from entering, and then accepting her victory. The movie did it by focusing on how the Amazons received Steve. And lets face it, by doing it this way the movie set up Steve as a badass in a way that Marston, Pérez, or Rucka ever did.

    Another purpose is to establish Diana as the best of the Amazons. And we got the gladiator battle that Marston, Pérez, and Rucka had as part of it, only it was part of Diana's training.

    Would a bullets-and-bracelets contest have been nice? Sure. But we get plenty of bullets-and-bracelets later in the movie.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #42
    Incredible Member NYCER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Her history not being honored is unfortunately not a recent problem, it pre-dates Rebirth and Johns quite a bit. And wasn't helped by the New 52 version.

    The film isn't retconning her history because in the context of the film, all her comic book history didn't happen and it's establishing her history for the DCEU. Picking various bits and pieces and putting together something new is how adaptations are meant to work. The lack of the contest isn't too bothersome to me, it keeps the pace moving and like you said, the Contest is pointless since she's so far ahead of the other Amazons. Having the Contest in the Perez run when she already had her powers was, IMO, kind of a mistake. I'd prefer the film's route of bypassing it or go the Year One/Golden Age route of having her be on more equal footing with the other Amazons before any additional powers are given.
    I failed to specify that fans of the "Wonder Woman" comic book-especially long time readers-would immediately recognize that various retcons presented in the movie that first appeared on print.

  13. #43
    Fantastic Member Midnighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    I think the New 52 origin of the JL is on the way out as it is anyway.
    It already is. The full Justice League history has been restored. The satelite era, Detroit, classic JLI and Morrison's JLA have all been referenced several times. Martain Manhunter is again seen as the heart of the League, and as of this fall NTT history is restored.

    If Origins is still in continuity it would have to be seen as more of a "getting the band back together" type story.
    Last edited by Midnighter; 06-25-2019 at 07:40 PM.
    # FIRE DIDIO #JUSTICE FOR WALLY WEST

  14. #44
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Send Diana back in time to be the Golden Age Wonder Woman, who falls in love with an ARGUS agent, code-named 'Steve Trevor', ..one of many agents, code-named the same, throughout history. This will retcon in that the Amazons have labored to hide Diana's time-travelling from her, as she grew to womanhood.

    Maybe, she left the Island, again, in 1968, after magically transforming herself into a blond, ..a disguise she used to secretly enter and WIN a Tournament of Wonder. This is when she could have been a top-SECRET agent for ARGUS, herself, ..and so secretly that there was no public record of her existence. After half a decade of very secret, 70s adventures, maybe-ee...she disappeared in an explosion that was covered up by the government, never to be seen again, until the Crises stories?

    Or-rrr...you could just make Wonder Woman, real, rea-aalll old, like in the movie pictures. Just sayin'...
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-27-2019 at 09:51 AM.
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    We don't need Diana in the JSA. She may have belonged when there was a Golden Age version, but not now.

    Any attempt to incorporate the age-thing from the movies would be a stupid move for the comic books. It would change the dynamic between herself and Kal and Bruce, and not in a good way.

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