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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    DC copping out when it comes to this pairing is par for the course even afraid to show them kissing when they've done it before
    IDK what's next for Ivy but at least there's the Harley Quinn animated series

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    It's just so cheap, and I have no idea how a writer as good and as aware of social issues as Houser managed to write this.

    First, the ending of Heroes in Crisis had a strong hint that Ivy would be a more heroic character going forward (no matter that the way they managed that left at least me with a seriously sour taste and I think went against everything the character stands for). Along the way they fridged her. And now here Ivy is turned crazy. Again at the instigation of a man.

    In short, Ivy here is totally robbed of moral agency.

    Second, the characterisation of Poison Ivy here is just off. If we look at many of the best depictions of Ivy—"Pavane", "Cast Shadows", Batgirl Annual #2—she is written with a certain aspect of serenity. It's not that she lacks emotions or passion, but there is a slow inevitability in them. She bends, but do not break. She changes gradually but steadily. She grows slowly but inevitably. Everything she does is measured.

    I don't see any of that here in this story. "Good" Ivy might appear a bit more calm, but she is far from serene.

    And then we have the bait-and-switch done to the readers who supported this as a story where Harley and Ivy would be a couple. Didn't DC learn anything from the BatCat fiasco?
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Had a couple more thoughts on Harley and Ivy while out walking today.

    First: I want them to be shown as having a strong positive relationship. They have such a rich history together, and friendships between women are far too uncommon in comics. I don't care if they're friends, in a platonic relationship, lovers, or something else, but they should be expressed as positive forces for each other. The beginning of this mini held to that, but then tossed it away in the end.

    Second: gaybaiting is a real thing, and DC has done more than its fair share with Harley and Ivy. They might be presented as a couple in some out-of-continuity or lighter stories, but in continuity or over a longer story arc? Almost nothing. With this one, we got an inkling of some sort of them being happy together at the end of HiC, and then going through difficulties together in this mini, but only for them to being separated again. Not cool.

    Third: partly related to the second, we have a decent amount of stories where we get to see their relationship from Harley's point of view, and how Harley sees Ivy. But we have very little on their relationship from Ivy's point of view, or how she sees Harley. To some degree this is natural because Harley is the more prevalent character with her own title, but even in this mini we see a lot of Harley caring for Ivy as a person, but not that much the other way around. To perhaps explain their relation in the mini a bit better: Harley helps Ivy, but Ivy rescues Harley.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  4. #49
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    I have never thought Houser was particularly good, and this mini seems pretty much exactly what I'd expect from her...except for the ridiculous level of not being willing to define whether Harley and Ivy are romantically involved. That's incredibly puzzling to me.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  5. #50
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Why is DC so scared of showing Harley and Ivy kissing on the lips LOL

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I have never thought Houser was particularly good, and this mini seems pretty much exactly what I'd expect from her...except for the ridiculous level of not being willing to define whether Harley and Ivy are romantically involved. That's incredibly puzzling to me.
    It might be just me, but a writer who manages to write a comic as a well-formed sonnet gets major cred in my book. And while "Roots and Leaves" by her doesn't show them kissing, but it's rather explicit about portraying them as lovers.

    As for showing them as lovers, I'm fairly sure that there is a lot, maybe not outright homophobia, at least fear of the reaction from homophobes.

    Happily, DC Young is run by people who are willing to toss homophobes and racists aside, and let creators run ahead with the stories they want to tell. Hopefully we can get an Ivy story from that part of DC soon. I even came up with a perfect title: Uprooted :-)
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #52
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, they've been shown making out a lot in Harley's solo so I don't think it's really an aversion to showing it.

  8. #53
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, they've been shown making out a lot in Harley's solo so I don't think it's really an aversion to showing it.
    There seems to be a weird aversion to showing in in canon. Harley's solo is pretty clearly only semi-canon.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  9. #54
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Red face

    Here is an interesting Youtube video about our favorite couple. Don't let the title fool you it isn't about what you think (not exactly anyway) -

    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, they've been shown making out a lot in Harley's solo so I don't think it's really an aversion to showing it.
    With a focus on have.

    Conner and Palmiotti regularly showed them as a couple, but later writers have effectively written Ivy out of Harley's life.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member RAWRlrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    With a focus on have.

    Conner and Palmiotti regularly showed them as a couple, but later writers have effectively written Ivy out of Harley's life.
    Were they a couple at that time? Closer than this mini for sure, but i don't remember them being a couple in it.

  12. #57
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    With a focus on have.

    Conner and Palmiotti regularly showed them as a couple, but later writers have effectively written Ivy out of Harley's life.
    I am pretty sure that Conner/Palmiotti's Harley Quinn isn't fully in continuity with the rest of the DCUniverse (nor any of the solo Harley stories, however much they might draw from events in the main continuity, it isn't really a two-way street).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    And then we have the bait-and-switch done to the readers who supported this as a story where Harley and Ivy would be a couple. Didn't DC learn anything from the BatCat fiasco?
    I know this makes good drama, but the only thing I got from DC's promotion of this if BFFs on road trip. Everything is just wishful thinking, and not at all misleading like the wedding.

    After some time passed I just don't have much to say about this series other than it was mediocre. Whatever other assessment you have is probably fair, and I would try to address some of them by citing things in the book, like maybe Lex's "Gift" is to blame for the irrationality of Poison Ivy, but the story never bothered to explain it or what happened at all really with the multiples, just that one of them was angry because it needed to be angry.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    The six issues can be read with them as a not-couple, but try reading it as if they were a man and a woman, rather than two women.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #60

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    Well I regret buying this, as a follow up to the events of HIC it was a major anti-climax.

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