Millennium: the Legion of Superheroes and more

[Ascended]

I disagree, superman being an actual mentor and a good father for once was nice change of pace

After two years of the perfect family (which I enjoyed in its way, dont get me wrong) its been nice to get back to what I consider more firmly established characterization. Yes, Clark always wanted a family, despite how badly his interactions with them often go. And yes, he'd get better at it once Jon was born. But Clark making a mistake as a parent? That's actually reassuring. And that's all this was. A parent making a mistake. A mistake that Clark's history says is exactly the kind of mistake he'd make. It's nice to know that Superman can screw up as a parent occasionally. I can relate to that.

What has been so great about seeing Clark screw up his son, exactly?

Jon's not screwed up. He went through some tough times but he seems to have come out fine. Unless something crazy happened in the last issue, which I haven't read yet.

In any case, I've grown tired of the aged-up Jon and Superfamily debates. For those who aren't enjoying it, that's a shame. Wish you were. I however, am more or less satisfied for now and am willing to see where this all goes. Maybe I'll like it more than what we had. Maybe I won't. But I don't want to talk in circles explaining and justifying it anymore.

[jason white reborn]

After two years of the perfect family (which I enjoyed in its way, dont get me wrong) its been nice to get back to what I consider more firmly established characterization. Yes, Clark always wanted a family, despite how badly his interactions with them often go. And yes, he'd get better at it once Jon was born. But Clark making a mistake as a parent? That's actually reassuring. And that's all this was. A parent making a mistake. A mistake that Clark's history says is exactly the kind of mistake he'd make. It's nice to know that Superman can screw up as a parent occasionally. I can relate to that.



Jon's not screwed up. He went through some tough times but he seems to have come out fine. Unless something crazy happened in the last issue, which I haven't read yet.

In any case, I've grown tired of the aged-up Jon and Superfamily debates. For those who aren't enjoying it, that's a shame. Wish you were. I however, am more or less satisfied for now and am willing to see where this all goes. Maybe I'll like it more than what we had. Maybe I won't. But I don't want to talk in circles explaining and justifying it anymore.

When Jon is phased out as a character and goes the way of daken and Chris Kent(never mentioned, used only when forced to). Will you admit that you were wrong and we were right?

[manwhohaseverything]

I do know and I agree with you actually. I think an Elseworld Superman who lands in one of those countries would be an absolutely fascinating story. But you’re not really a fan of New 52 Supes right? I feel like a Cambodian or Nigerian Superman would lean more towards the New 52 attitude then the Post-Crisis/Rebirth Superman to be honest.
In developing world farming is hard they don't have money to buy a bulls for ploughing the fields, let alone machinery And for those places a farmer background, and perhaps occasional return to that life would make perfect sense. But for canon Earth 0 white-passing Clark? Farming is fine as his childhood shield from the world but as the years go on it’s going to be harder and harder to keep. In America small towns and farming lifestyles are dying out, I should know, I come from one of those towns. And for that reason it’s reporting that I see as Clark’s future, although even that is not guaranteed.

I liked morrison's new52 superman. I was talking about the need for superman. I feel developed world needs superman less than developing world.machinery is not something farmers in developing countries can afford and corruption other nonsense is much more rampant. Superman is needed there more as a journalist, as a farmer and as a superhero. Clark being needed in Metropolis is less believable, when the city is dubbed "the city of tomorrow" . I also believe gotham needs superman, over Metropolis.And when it comes to attitudes, i don't see much difference between new52 superman and rebirth superman. This clark is older, little more restrained and has more personal stake. Put in to those situations, i am sure this rebirth clark can be just as dynamic and scary with dealing with corrupt officers and such.
The thing is clark's brand of newspaper journalism is also dieing. Doesn't mean clark shouldn't be a reporter anymore. Farming is in Clark's blood and he has a background. For me clark is all of that a reporter, a farmer and a hero. It is an important side of clark. When clark returns home to smallville for some rest and relaxation, Or when he is not a reporter like in rebirth. He is a farmer, deep down. It should always be something that clark should be proud of and something that he wouldn't mind doing. Even, in america like you said where farming is largely being automated. I see farming and writing both as Clark's passion. Farming just gives clark more "the son of the soil" kind of vibe,sort of like tarzan. Besides, there aren't many superheroes with a farming background.
I was in no way advocating clark switch profession and become a farmer.

[manwhohaseverything]

After two years of the perfect family (which I enjoyed in its way, dont get me wrong) its been nice to get back to what I consider more firmly established characterization. Yes, Clark always wanted a family, despite how badly his interactions with them often go. And yes, he'd get better at it once Jon was born. But Clark making a mistake as a parent? That's actually reassuring. And that's all this was. A parent making a mistake. A mistake that Clark's history says is exactly the kind of mistake he'd make. It's nice to know that Superman can screw up as a parent occasionally. I can relate to that.



Jon's not screwed up. He went through some tough times but he seems to have come out fine. Unless something crazy happened in the last issue, which I haven't read yet.

In any case, I've grown tired of the aged-up Jon and Superfamily debates. For those who aren't enjoying it, that's a shame. Wish you were. I however, am more or less satisfied for now and am willing to see where this all goes. Maybe I'll like it more than what we had. Maybe I won't. But I don't want to talk in circles explaining and justifying it anymore.

I don't see clark not trying harder or asking his intergalactic friends like hal jordan for help finding his son,as just a mistake. It was bad parenting, pure and simple.it also portrays him as an neglectful irresponsible idiot . It's like goku throwing gohan into the jaws of cell.
And as for Jon not getting screwed up. That is thanks to Jon's own will power and his attitude(also blame bad writing. Since, jon feels like caricature of his old self with less emotional range). Jon could have been screwed up or worse killed by Ultraman. Clark's negligence would have caused a life. Something that can destroy a life is not just a mistake for me.
Being a father for this long changes people. Clark should have grown mature enough to handle situations like these, even if he struggles. Especially for clark, who's son means so much to him in the previous run. Clark should never break, only bend(same reasoning for evil superman like injustice) under any circumstances as a parent . This portrayal breaks clark as a parent. This clark earlier handled his son burning his cat alive. Comparing that to Bendis's clark is like night and day.
So, yeah! I am not enjoying clark as a shitty parent. Aging up itself is not connected to that. I hate Clois's characterizations as parents from Bendis's pen because i feel they are being neglectful bad parents. And i don't feel any sympathy for them that book demands of me. If that was the intention of the author, he failed.
Anyways sorry, if i dragged you into a debate or argument you didn't want. It was not my intention to cause any offence. I will stop now. Again, sorry if i wasted your time.

[Ascended]

I don't see clark not trying harder or asking his intergalactic friends like hal jordan for help finding his son,as just a mistake. It was bad parenting, pure and simple.

Yes! Exactly! That is what I have been saying! Clark is, historically, terrible with family so it makes sense to me that he'd do something like this. Clark's inability to handle family situations goes back to the first arrival of Kara and crops up in almost every continuity and iteration. This is just Clark being written in-character, as far as I'm concerned (obviously YMMV). Yeah, he'd get better at it over the years of Jon growing up but that "bad with family" baseline is still going to be there and it should still pop up once in a while.

Anyways sorry, if i dragged you into a debate or argument you didn't want. It was not my intention to cause any offence. I will stop now. Again, sorry if i wasted your time.

No need to apologize brother (but thanks anyway). But I'm not going to change anyone's mind, nor are they going to change mine. We've all made our points and (at least some of us, you included) have valid ones. I'm just tired of hitting the same talking points over and over again. Once the dust settles and we know where Bendis is going to put Jon and what the family dynamic will be, there'll be new aspects for us to talk about, but right now I just feel like there's nothing new to say, yknow?

[Vordan]

I liked morrison's new52 superman. I was talking about the need for superman. I feel developed world needs superman less than developing world.machinery is not something farmers in developing countries can afford and corruption other nonsense is much more rampant. Superman is needed there more as a journalist, as a farmer and as a superhero. Clark being needed in Metropolis is less believable, when the city is dubbed "the city of tomorrow" . I also believe gotham needs superman, over Metropolis.And when it comes to attitudes, i don't see much difference between new52 superman and rebirth superman. This clark is older, little more restrained and has more personal stake. Put in to those situations, i am sure this rebirth clark can be just as dynamic and scary with dealing with corrupt officers and such.
The thing is clark's brand of newspaper journalism is also dieing. Doesn't mean clark shouldn't be a reporter anymore. Farming is in Clark's blood and he has a background. For me clark is all of that a reporter, a farmer and a hero. It is an important side of clark. When clark returns home to smallville for some rest and relaxation, Or when he is not a reporter like in rebirth. He is a farmer, deep down. It should always be something that clark should be proud of and something that he wouldn't mind doing. Even, in america like you said where farming is largely being automated. I see farming and writing both as Clark's passion. Farming just gives clark more "the son of the soil" kind of vibe,sort of like tarzan. Besides, there aren't many superheroes with a farming background.
I was in no way advocating clark switch profession and become a farmer.

Oh man don’t get me started. When Metropolis is stereotyped as some 100% utopia because “Superman is good so Metropolis is perfect to live in as well XDDDD” I get really heated. Because you’re right, it makes zero sense for Supes to be hanging out in a city that doesn’t need him when so many other places do. But I felt like the New 52 Morrison run did a good job of addressing this, Metropolis at the start WASN’T that great at all. It was on its way to becoming a cyberpunk hellhole, which Supes helped to avert somewhat. I firmly believe Metropolis should have more cyberpunk elements to it then it traditionally has had.

[rpmaluki]

Yes! Exactly! That is what I have been saying! Clark is, historically, terrible with family so it makes sense to me that he'd do something like this. Clark's inability to handle family situations goes back to the first arrival of Kara and crops up in almost every continuity and iteration. This is just Clark being written in-character, as far as I'm concerned (obviously YMMV). Yeah, he'd get better at it over the years of Jon growing up but that "bad with family" baseline is still going to be there and it should still pop up once in a while.



No need to apologize brother (but thanks anyway). But I'm not going to change anyone's mind, nor are they going to change mine. We've all made our points and (at least some of us, you included) have valid ones. I'm just tired of hitting the same talking points over and over again. Once the dust settles and we know where Bendis is going to put Jon and what the family dynamic will be, there'll be new aspects for us to talk about, but right now I just feel like there's nothing new to say, yknow?

This goes back to my view that Clark is not perfect. He's a great hero, very inspirational and a great person in general but his history is peppered with some really not so great moments/decisions. Some, he felt were justified, like lying to the woman he planned to marry about his real identity but in the end they were still not good and no matter what, I will never dismiss just how crappy that was towards the end. While talking about his relationship with Kara, isn't Conner another example of him being "off" his "family" game, at least at some point since the character was introduced. I don't expect Clark to tick every box perfectly but I do love that his humble enough to Keep learning and improving. I would rather there be movement/progress in his characterisation than basically settling him in one spot for forever. He loves his family but I don't expect him to make the right decisions where they are concerned all of the time, nobody in real life does that so why expect it from him? With what Bendis has written I don't see his mistake with Jon as bad parenting in context of comic book storytelling but rather an unforeseen mishap from what was a well meaning expectation to help his son. For my part, ever since Super Sons was a thing, Lois and Clark have allowed their kid to do things well outside what a ten a year old should do, who cares that he's super powered. But they showed trust that what he did was helping him as he developed, that isn't any different to allowing him to leave with his grandfather and mother for summer holiday in outer space. Honestly if calling out his parenting is a must, let's start with Tomasi because he was the first to push the boundaries of the nonsense that's happened to Jon (when his parents weren't holding his hand at every turn) and is still happening in the limited series that's only now coming to a close. The point I'm making is that Jon going off on some ill conceived adventure that endangered him didn't start with Bendis. The difference is that we are seeing the consequences, not only of their parenting but of the superhero life that we first witnessed in Rebirth. Tomasi simply chose to make sure Jon was home without a scratch every night despite his preteen life of a vigilante.

Bendis is telling a different story. For the moment, things aren't going to hit a reset button until the next issue and I'm willing to see where he goes with it.

[manwhohaseverything]

This goes back to my view that Clark is not perfect. He's a great hero, very inspirational and a great person in general but his history is peppered with some really not so great moments/decisions. Some, he felt were justified, like lying to the woman he planned to marry about his real identity but in the end they were still not good and no matter what, I will never dismiss just how crappy that was towards the end. While talking about his relationship with Kara, isn't Conner another example of him being "off" his "family" game, at least at some point since the character was introduced. I don't expect Clark to tick every box perfectly but I do love that his humble enough to Keep learning and improving. I would rather there be movement/progress in his characterisation than basically settling him in one spot for forever. He loves his family but I don't expect him to make the right decisions where they are concerned all of the time, nobody in real life does that so why expect it from him? With what Bendis has written I don't see his mistake with Jon as bad parenting in context of comic book storytelling but rather an unforeseen mishap from what was a well meaning expectation to help his son. For my part, ever since Super Sons was a thing, Lois and Clark have allowed their kid to do things well outside what a ten a year old should do, who cares that he's super powered. But they showed trust that what he did was helping him as he developed, that isn't any different to allowing him to leave with his grandfather and mother for summer holiday in outer space. Honestly if calling out his parenting is a must, let's start with Tomasi because he was the first to push the boundaries of the nonsense that's happened to Jon (when his parents weren't holding his hand at every turn) and is still happening in the limited series that's only now coming to a close. The point I'm making is that Jon going off on some ill conceived adventure that endangered him didn't start with Bendis. The difference is that we are seeing the consequences, not only of their parenting but of the superhero life that we first witnessed in Rebirth. Tomasi simply chose to make sure Jon was home without a scratch every night despite his preteen life of a vigilante.

Bendis is telling a different story. For the moment, things aren't going to hit a reset button until the next issue and I'm willing to see where he goes with it.

I have said this before and say this again. Being victim of circumstances and letting everything go out of control are too different things.
The problem isn't Adventures, it is how clark and lois react to it. Clois had always tried to give a safety net and keep things normal as much as it was possible. Jon powers were not in control and badguys kept kidnapping him. Clark didn't have a choice but to make him part of the superhero world,because he was already in it. But still clark kept trying. The last issue, Clark's had a reaction of "lois is going to kill me". it was meant to be comedic. but clark reaction should be like that. He let his son room to grow, doesn't mean he let him do whatever.he struggled with his decisions.
Jon didn't have much vigilante life, he had a curfew.His vigilante life included rescuing cats, helping old ladies across street and being back before bed time on school nights. When he snuck out, he got his ass handed to him by his mother. Jon had to debrief clark about his adventures. Batman had an eye on him.
Rebirth Lois would never leave her child, even if hell freezes over. And rebirth clark would have searched hell and high water for his kid. He would have had the entire league, lantern corp.. Etc and anyone that can help be on case of finding his son. It really felt like clark and lois loved their kid and was protective of him.
"Clark should be bad parents" part of being his characterisation is not something i buy into, i feel it is just an interpretation.

Clark and lois's struggle and normal part of Jon's life gave them a level of relatability and was even fun to read. Now, jon isn't relatable. He is just another cape in space on adventure to defeat a monster.now,clark is just a superhero.not someone who is trying to be superhero and a dad. Same with lois.
Anyways, i am done talking about it. I am not enjoying bendis's superfamily. I am enjoying his other stuff though.

[rpmaluki]

I have said this before and say this again. Being victim of circumstances and letting everything go out of control are too different things.
The problem isn't Adventures, it is how clark and lois react to it. Clois had always tried to give a safety net and keep things normal as much as it was possible. Jon powers were not in control and badguys kept kidnapping him. Clark didn't have a choice but to make him part of the superhero world,because he was already in it. But still clark kept trying. The last issue, Clark's had a reaction of "lois is going to kill me". it was meant to be comedic. but clark reaction should be like that. He let his son room to grow, doesn't mean he let him do whatever.he struggled with his decisions.
Jon didn't have much vigilante life, he had a curfew.His vigilante life included rescuing cats, helping old ladies across street and being back before bed time on school nights. When he snuck out, he got his ass handed to him by his mother. Jon had to debrief clark about his adventures. Batman had an eye on him.
Rebirth Lois would never leave her child, even if hell freezes over. And rebirth clark would have searched hell and high water for his kid. He would have had the entire league, lantern corp.. Etc and anyone that can help be on case of finding his son. It really felt like clark and lois loved their kid and was protective of him.
"Clark should be bad parents" part of being his characterisation is not something i buy into, i feel it is just an interpretation.

Clark and lois's struggle and normal part of Jon's life gave them a level of relatability and was even fun to read. Now, jon isn't relatable. He is just another cape in space on adventure to defeat a monster.now,clark is just a superhero.not someone who is trying to be superhero and a dad. Same with lois.
Anyways, i am done talking about it. I am not enjoying bendis's superfamily. I am enjoying his other stuff though.

I didn't say Clark should be a bad parent for his characterisation, only that him making mistakes should be expected at the very least, it's part and parcel of being a parent. He reluctantly made a decision he thought at the time was best only for it to bite him in the rear when unexpected crap happened. He is far from being a bad parent in my view. It varies from yours, that should be fine.

[Ascended]

"Clark should be bad parents" part of being his characterisation is not something i buy into, i feel it is just an interpretation.

Of course it is. It's literature (well....comic books). Everything is an interpretation. I can point to a multitude of stories and moments across Clark's history that show he's really bad at dealing with family, so it's an interpretation built on history and consistency (as much as you can have consistency here) but it's still just a interpretation, and other ways of looking at the character may be just as valid.

[jason white reborn]

this title won't be successful.


When was the last time a legion of superhero title...especially one with a character who is as reviled as aged up Jon...ever been successful.



ZERO is the objective number

[Korath]

Reviled by whom ? People who can't see character development and actual potential when it strikes them in the guts ?

I'll probably at least pick up the Legion book. I stopped caring for Jon extremely quickly because he was a very boring, uninteresting, cliché good kid. He was then propped up at the expense of Damian, a far more interesting character, and then salvaged from a forseeable future of nothing more than a cute pet in the Superman books and a drag on the Batman mythos by Bendis.

[Ascended]

I'm definitely going to give the Legion a shot. Never been able to really get into the comics but I do love their importance in Clark's mythology and the concept of the Legion. And it'll be interesting to see how the Legion handle hanging out with the son of their friend. That would have to be weird, yknow?

I doubt the book is going to do great numbers. I dont think the direct market has much room for the Legion anymore. Other distribution venues like Scholastic seem like a better fit. But I'm hoping something clicks, and it seems like Bendis is trying to drum up some hype for the title by launching it out of this big Millennial thing, or whatever its called. In any case I'd rather see DC take the risk and try it than let the IP languish in limbo. You never know what'll work until you try it, right?

If nothing else, I figure the Legion should be able to pull Super Sons numbers. That's what, barely hovering above 10K these days? Legion should be able to stay in that general sales bracket, which might keep it afloat for a while.

[jason white reborn]

I'm definitely going to give the Legion a shot. Never been able to really get into the comics but I do love their importance in Clark's mythology and the concept of the Legion. And it'll be interesting to see how the Legion handle hanging out with the son of their friend. That would have to be weird, yknow?

I doubt the book is going to do great numbers. I dont think the direct market has much room for the Legion anymore. Other distribution venues like Scholastic seem like a better fit. But I'm hoping something clicks, and it seems like Bendis is trying to drum up some hype for the title by launching it out of this big Millennial thing, or whatever its called. In any case I'd rather see DC take the risk and try it than let the IP languish in limbo. You never know what'll work until you try it, right?

If nothing else, I figure the Legion should be able to pull Super Sons numbers. That's what, barely hovering above 10K these days? Legion should be able to stay in that general sales bracket, which might keep it afloat for a while.

That is super optimistic...I for one won't be suprised to see this thing sell worse than super sons ever did. And it will be glorious.

Because watching bendis version of Jon being rejected AGAIN and watching his incompetence sink the very title that got him into comics to begin with is a kind of bitter justice that makes my mouth water

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

It’s too early to assume it’ll fail. I mean yeah the Legion has had a lot of misses. But apparently Hulk is currently outselling Batman so who knows? Plus this seems like a passion project for Bendis so it might be around a while. Anyway I don’t really care about the Legion besides adding some interesting meat to Clark’s past. I really only like them when Clark is around them. So I probably wouldn’t be interested even if I didn’t hate what Bendis did with Jon. That Snyder JSA run’s got me hyped up though.