Millennium: the Legion of Superheroes and more

[Ascended]

I'm generally confused like who are these people!!

Assuming you're being serious?

When Clark was a teenager he met three kids from the future. A fantastic, wondrous future that Clark (his example, really) built. They had come back to meet their hero and Clark went to the future with them, met the rest of their team and became a part of the group; an army of young superhumans from across the universe working together, promoting unity and cooperation between worlds. Clark would spend weekends a thousand years in the future, learning how to fight, how to use his powers in ways he hadn't thought of, fighting evil and saving worlds and universes. And he'd bring all that experience home with him and use that in his adventures as Superboy.

The Legion is why, when Superman shows up in the present day, he's already a worldly, experienced hero who doesn't make stupid rookie mistakes that cost lives. They're the reason why the public trusts heroes; if not for the Legion Clark's arrival as Superman would have gone far worse because he wouldn't have been as well prepared. This is a big part of why Clark's sense of optimism is so secure; he doesnt just believe in a bright, awesome future.....he's been there. They're a huge part of Super-lore; Clark's life inspired them but Clark learned an awful lot from them in turn.

After the reboot in 86, the IP struggled and never recovered its former glory. In its day, it was wildly successful (sort of like the NTT were in the 80's) but the reboot cut the ties between Superman and the Legion and the Legion never got its groove back, even when those ties were brought back in the 00's.

As Ive said, Ive never really gotten into the comics. There are some stories here and there that I enjoy but I've never really felt the execution of the IP was equal to its potential and importance in the DCU. But the concept is pretty badass.

[Kuwagaton]

What makes you say Batman too? Did I miss something?

Not that I assume any of the Millennium feature characters are joining, but Terry is the "thread" possessing his own ongoing story. It's not gonna end where with a vignette. Especially because his writer, Dan Jurgens is a huge Legion fan who is already stoked from the Booster Gold inclusion. Frankly, both properties can benefit from cross promotion.

Well, common sense has never stopped Clark from making questionable decisions with his family.

I don't take him for a guy who sticks his hand into a fire after already burning it. We're gonna get "dad what is that?" part two only there aren't any meteors left to smash, haha.

And these are some of Clark's oldest and most trusted friends, who helped him considerably during his youth. Jon proved that he can handle himself with Jor. So sure, why the hell not?

He lost years of his life. That's pretty rough. For all he can do, having a stolen childhood has no compensation.

It's actually really nice to get away from the perfect father, Rockwell-ian version of Clark that Tomasi wrote. As much as I enjoyed the first half of that run, Clark has never done very well with family and I feel like Bendis is staying truer to the history of the character this way.

This Rockwell dad was actually a dimension hopping alien m who went around teaching his son to stand up to alien zealots. His perfect family dynamic was encumbered by weird things like not telling his wife about building a Superjail or Frankenstein crashing into town.

It always felt to me like the idea of Superman having true happiness just bugs some to a given extent. Every threshold is different and no less valid, of course. Some people straight up find it cheesy if he stand in front of the flag. I remember people being very displeased a few summers ago when he narratively took that flag and smacked us with it. Wasn't too fond either tbh.

I can't speak for Ascendant but people would often use Rockwellian to refer to the Hyper-Idealistic representation of Smalltown America that was the center point of Superman's post-crisis upbringing. You could say that both era's had very rosy and ideal childhoods a key difference imo was that Pre-Crisis never tried to pretend that Superman was anything other than Superman and presented you with a childhood that fed back into the Superman mythos. Post-Crisis in it's never ending obsession with relatability slathered everything in this weird world of Andy Griffith meets some kind of 1980's sitcom. Seeing Clark propped up on a tractor, tending to farm work that serves no purpose, and in general the whole farm hand family thats been haunting the character since '87 serves no real purpose other than aesthetic preening. Clark's a superhero not a farmer. The Superman stuff from Tomasi's run was good but the regular guy stuff varied.

Smallville had always him a better hero. The tractor you mention taught him mechanics, which he used all the time. That's honestly why I think the loss of the Legion tends to be overstated. And I mean not to be jaded here, but we're probably not going to see an unrealistic sales boost from the restored synergy. I'm buying several copies myself of these new Superfamily titles, but to expect something so much more than 5YL or the relaunches since ( Giffen, Peyer, Abnett, Waid etc.) I would hope the Legion property just somehow gets more popular as a product than an idea.

Oh man don’t get me started. When Metropolis is stereotyped as some 100% utopia because “Superman is good so Metropolis is perfect to live in as well XDDDD” I get really heated. Because you’re right, it makes zero sense for Supes to be hanging out in a city that doesn’t need him when so many other places do.

But it does need him, he's just good at keeping it safe. Can you imagine if he wasn't there and Lex just went around being Lex unchecked? That guy literally had the skeletons of less successful heroes in his basement. And how is a guy who can't protect a city be a great hero throughout the universe? Not that he can't also have the Legion legacy, but I was also always impressed by the number of regular and super people he inspires even just in Metropolis.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

The one reason why I am glad this got confirmed is that it means Bendis must not be the guy replacing King on Batman. Right? After a while, I just want my Batman book to have characters talk like actual people. I didn’t read through “Bat.” “Cat.” “I’m going to break your goddamn back” just to walk straight into “Me boy?” and “caca poo poo.”

[Ascended]

I don't take him for a guy who sticks his hand into a fire after already burning it. We're gonna get "dad what is that?" part two only there aren't any meteors left to smash, haha.

How many times has he fought the same villains? Dude totally keeps putting his hand in the same fire.

It always felt to me like the idea of Superman having true happiness just bugs some to a given extent. Every threshold is different and no less valid, of course.

Honestly? A little bit, yeah. Not like a Didio level of "they must be miserable and hate their lives!" kinda thing, but I think we're forgetting some of the core themes that drive this franchise.

One of the many things I love about Clark is where his life is flawed and where he himself is a little broken, but he doesn't wallow in it. I adore the fact that this is a guy in comic books who lost his parents and didn't become obsessed over it. This is the guy who believed for most of his life that he'd never be able to have children, and made his peace with that. The last of an entire species, and he saves what he can, celebrates what he can, and is good with that despite knowing it'll never be enough to change his people's fate. When Clark has a perfect life, where's the fun? Where's the contrast? The inner conflict and challenge he has to overcome? When Clark's life is perfect, the only challenges he has are external ones and those are always the least interesting challenges to have.

There's a strong undercurrent of loneliness and alienation in Superman. Always has been. There's a lot of "normal person" things he can't have. When he gets those things, all the complaints non-fans make about him being vanilla and boring start to actually have some merit.

Thematically I was against Clark having a kid in the first place. That's a slice of normal life Clark shouldn't have been able to enjoy. Jon won me over pretty quick because he's a cute kid and a lot of fun. But Superman wasn't meant to have a Rockwell perfect family life. He was meant to be a man capable of doing anything, but who would never have certain things the rest of us take for granted. That was the trade-off; phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty corner office.

[Vordan]

Not that I assume any of the Millennium feature characters are joining, but Terry is the "thread" possessing his own ongoing story. It's not gonna end where with a vignette. Especially because his writer, Dan Jurgens is a huge Legion fan who is already stoked from the Booster Gold inclusion. Frankly, both properties can benefit from cross promotion.


I don't take him for a guy who sticks his hand into a fire after already burning it. We're gonna get "dad what is that?" part two only there aren't any meteors left to smash, haha.


He lost years of his life. That's pretty rough. For all he can do, having a stolen childhood has no compensation.



This Rockwell dad was actually a dimension hopping alien m who went around teaching his son to stand up to alien zealots. His perfect family dynamic was encumbered by weird things like not telling his wife about building a Superjail or Frankenstein crashing into town.

It always felt to me like the idea of Superman having true happiness just bugs some to a given extent. Every threshold is different and no less valid, of course. Some people straight up find it cheesy if he stand in front of the flag. I remember people being very displeased a few summers ago when he narratively took that flag and smacked us with it. Wasn't too fond either tbh.



Smallville had always him a better hero. The tractor you mention taught him mechanics, which he used all the time. That's honestly why I think the loss of the Legion tends to be overstated. And I mean not to be jaded here, but we're probably not going to see an unrealistic sales boost from the restored synergy. I'm buying several copies myself of these new Superfamily titles, but to expect something so much more than 5YL or the relaunches since ( Giffen, Peyer, Abnett, Waid etc.) I would hope the Legion property just somehow gets more popular as a product than an idea.



But it does need him, he's just good at keeping it safe. Can you imagine if he wasn't there and Lex just went around being Lex unchecked? That guy literally had the skeletons of less successful heroes in his basement. And how is a guy who can't protect a city be a great hero throughout the universe? Not that he can't also have the Legion legacy, but I was also always impressed by the number of regular and super people he inspires even just in Metropolis.

I agree! Sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. I’m talking about how some people have the impression that Metropolis is one perfect place free of crime which is not true and never has been. It’s a “City of Tomorrow” sure but that doesn’t mean Hob’s Bay and Suicide Slum don’t exist. Clark is in Metropolis because that’s where he’s needed most. (I do think that the artist tendency to draw Metropolis as a generic city sucks though, I want more cyberpunk or 70’s sci-fi inspiration in the design of Metropolis).

[Jim Kelly]

"City of Tomorrow" should be a real estate developer flim flam (led by J. Wilbur Wolfingham). They should show all the devastation resulting from this urban renewal and gentrification. With low income families forced out of their homes and shoved into monolithic towers. The failures of infrastructure to provide for basic needs. Roads that lead to nowhere. Abandoned rapid tranist projects. Ghost office buildings. Corporate billionaires hiding behind hundreds of levels of security, protected by their "science police," while outside homeless people scrounge through the garbage for food.

[manwhohaseverything]

"City of Tomorrow" should be a real estate developer flim flam (led by J. Wilbur Wolfingham). They should show all the devastation resulting from this urban renewal and gentrification. With low income families forced out of their homes and shoved into monolithic towers. The failures of infrastructure to provide for basic needs. Roads that lead to nowhere. Abandoned rapid tranist projects. Ghost office buildings. Corporate billionaires hiding behind hundreds of levels of security, protected by their "science police," while outside homeless people scrounge through the garbage for food.

So, it should be like detroit in robocop movie?

[Kuwagaton]

How many times has he fought the same villains? Dude totally keeps putting his hand in the same fire.

That's not exclusive to Superman though, that's the nature of the genre. I'm a pretty big 616 Punisher fan and he has the same problem even though it defeats his purpose.

Honestly? A little bit, yeah. Not like a Didio level of "they must be miserable and hate their lives!" kinda thing, but I think we're forgetting some of the core themes that drive this franchise.

One of the many things I love about Clark is where his life is flawed and where he himself is a little broken, but he doesn't wallow in it. I adore the fact that this is a guy in comic books who lost his parents and didn't become obsessed over it. This is the guy who believed for most of his life that he'd never be able to have children, and made his peace with that. The last of an entire species, and he saves what he can, celebrates what he can, and is good with that despite knowing it'll never be enough to change his people's fate. When Clark has a perfect life, where's the fun? Where's the contrast? The inner conflict and challenge he has to overcome? When Clark's life is perfect, the only challenges he has are external ones and those are always the least interesting challenges to have.

There's a strong undercurrent of loneliness and alienation in Superman. Always has been. There's a lot of "normal person" things he can't have. When he gets those things, all the complaints non-fans make about him being vanilla and boring start to actually have some merit.

Thematically I was against Clark having a kid in the first place. That's a slice of normal life Clark shouldn't have been able to enjoy. Jon won me over pretty quick because he's a cute kid and a lot of fun. But Superman wasn't meant to have a Rockwell perfect family life. He was meant to be a man capable of doing anything, but who would never have certain things the rest of us take for granted. That was the trade-off; phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty corner office.

I just don't get how his life is perfect. I mean it's not hard to imagine that he doesn't see it as perfect, given that he has to use his powers for things more serious than cats in trees constantly. You mention that it's a perception of people who don't like him and yeah... it's mostly because they don't like him. They might scratch the surface but generally don't give him a chance, just assume he's "too good." Losing his parents and billions of others isn't compelling because he doesn't gnash his teeth too often I guess. And then we do end up with stories trying to make him edgy to buck that notion, and that's even less liked somehow.

I've always summed him up as Reed Richards in Thor's body, and so I do see Jon as Franklin. I don't think that's too much for him to have. They have danced with the idea almost his entire career... the Klar stories are almost as old as the Legion. It shouldn't be as difficult for the franchise to sustain Jon as it is with Franklin, especially if we're going to start having him gone for periods with the Legion. I had a bit of a tough time with that except we can still easily get Lil Jon in stand-alone SS comics or the Zoom book line.

[Ascended]

I don't think that's too much for him to have. They have danced with the idea almost his entire career... the Klar stories are almost as old as the Legion. It shouldn't be as difficult for the franchise to sustain Jon as it is with Franklin, especially if we're going to start having him gone for periods with the Legion. I had a bit of a tough time with that except we can still easily get Lil Jon in stand-alone SS comics or the Zoom book line.

Oh, its not a huge deal. Probably presented my argument more emphatically than I actually feel, just to get the point across. I was all for Clark getting married back in the day (and still support it) and Jon isn't so far "out of bounds" I take real issue with it. I just think that, thematically, there are some things regular people have that Clark can't/shouldn't, and kids is one of those things. Hard for Clark to be the Last Son of Krypton when he's got offspring, yknow? Arguing that Jon is from earth.....semantics. And I feel the same way about Kara; I don't actually think she should exist. But she does, and she has since long before I was born, and even though I disagree with her being there I like her and enjoy her stories (when they're good, of course). Jon's the same way. I like the kid, but if I were to write what I consider the "ultimate" take on Superman? They wouldn't be there.

Jon (and Kara) are here though, and I enjoy them. I enjoyed Jon as a ten year old.....and I think I'll enjoy him as a 16-17 year old too, though I'll have to see what Bendis does with him first, of course.

[Ascended]

That's not exclusive to Superman though, that's the nature of the genre. I'm a pretty big 616 Punisher fan and he has the same problem even though it defeats his purpose.

I know, just making a joke.

[Sacred Knight]

How many times has he fought the same villains? Dude totally keeps putting his hand in the same fire.



Honestly? A little bit, yeah. Not like a Didio level of "they must be miserable and hate their lives!" kinda thing, but I think we're forgetting some of the core themes that drive this franchise.

One of the many things I love about Clark is where his life is flawed and where he himself is a little broken, but he doesn't wallow in it. I adore the fact that this is a guy in comic books who lost his parents and didn't become obsessed over it. This is the guy who believed for most of his life that he'd never be able to have children, and made his peace with that. The last of an entire species, and he saves what he can, celebrates what he can, and is good with that despite knowing it'll never be enough to change his people's fate. When Clark has a perfect life, where's the fun? Where's the contrast? The inner conflict and challenge he has to overcome? When Clark's life is perfect, the only challenges he has are external ones and those are always the least interesting challenges to have.

There's a strong undercurrent of loneliness and alienation in Superman. Always has been. There's a lot of "normal person" things he can't have. When he gets those things, all the complaints non-fans make about him being vanilla and boring start to actually have some merit.

Thematically I was against Clark having a kid in the first place. That's a slice of normal life Clark shouldn't have been able to enjoy. Jon won me over pretty quick because he's a cute kid and a lot of fun. But Superman wasn't meant to have a Rockwell perfect family life. He was meant to be a man capable of doing anything, but who would never have certain things the rest of us take for granted. That was the trade-off; phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty corner office.

Perfect summary of why I feel the way I do on the subject of family man Clark.

[Ascended]

Perfect summary of why I feel the way I do on the subject of family man Clark.

Thanks man. Yknow, I think you've actually been a bad influence on me. I dont think I was this against it, back in the day.

I mean, I recognized that Clark probably shouldn't have certain "regular person" things as soon as I started reading pre-Crisis stuff many years ago (grew up with the triangle era, and thus didnt realize how far afield certain aspects of that version was from the classic until I got into pre-Crisis in the early 00's) but I think you've pushed me even further in that direction. See, this is why people sometimes think we're the same person!

I like Jon, dont get me wrong. Im very much okay with him sticking around and he makes sense as a "next step" in life for post-Crisis Clark. But its still a deviation from what Superman is "meant" to be, I think.

[Sacred Knight]

Haha, my apologies. But my feelings can be conflicted as well. I mean, I'm staunch on where I stand now, but back in the day I loved the Kents around. My tastes have evolved but I don't forget about my childhood and when I do I feel guilty for railing on most of the status quo, because back then I did truly enjoy it. So I'm steadfast in what I like now, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that my fond memories can sometimes conflict me a bit.

So we're just about on the same page on most every level, except that you accept Jon's character more than I can. That will be what we can point to to assure others we're not aliases of the same guy, ha.

[Kuwagaton]

The post crisis experience, for those of us hooked between 1986 and 2005, really has an unwritten rule imo. It involves leaving to delve into pre crisis, and then coming back to make sense of the difference. How the changes don't betray the mythos.

But the only way I can think of "meant to be" applying to Superman is if it stayed between Jerry and Joe in the first place. This is sad to say given their experiences, but I doubt that would have been for the best. Even many of the things Jerry later had a credit on didn't start with his own ideas. Not that, through secondhand accounts, he didn't have similar ideas or enjoy some execution later. But it never sounded like wanting Superman back was really about what to do or not do with the character, and in any case he'd designed the marriage and procreation of Superman on enough occasions to see some follow through. They didn't last in his stories and I also think Jon will go away eventually (like it or not this age thing is clearly a nail in the coffin). So I enjoy him for now.

Happy belated father's day btw, Acsended. I never take it for granted that someone will respond within a day.

[Ascended]

Haha, my apologies. But my feelings can be conflicted as well. I mean, I'm staunch on where I stand now, but back in the day I loved the Kents around. My tastes have evolved but I don't forget about my childhood and when I do I feel guilty for railing on most of the status quo, because back then I did truly enjoy it. So I'm steadfast in what I like now, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that my fond memories can sometimes conflict me a bit.

So we're just about on the same page on most every level, except that you accept Jon's character more than I can. That will be what we can point to to assure others we're not aliases of the same guy, ha.

At this point, DC has done so many things I believe "go against" the direction of classic Superman I've learned to just roll with it. As long as there's enough there that strikes me as being "right" I'll accept some details being off. Sort of had to get to that mindset, given I don't really think Kara should be Clark's cousin and she was around long before me!

And like I said, if you can squint and tilt your head and try to see post-Crisis as being a stage in life where classic Superman starts to invest in the "Clark" side of his life more....then you can sorta pretend that all the "normal family" stuff fits thematically. You just gotta ignore a lot.

The post crisis experience, for those of us hooked between 1986 and 2005, really has an unwritten rule imo. It involves leaving to delve into pre crisis, and then coming back to make sense of the difference. How the changes don't betray the mythos.

I do think you can sort of fit a lot of the post-Crisis stuff in and have it make a kind of sense. If you imagine that, as his career began to grow and his relationship with Lois and his other peers began to become more important to him, Clark began to see "Clark Kent" as more important than he had earlier in life (Silver-Bronze Age). But some of it just does not fuse well, and probably never will. Clark having a kid, for example, is an "either-or" thing, you can't compromise on that. Either it fits for him to have kids thematically or it doesn't. With that sort of stuff you either have to accept it, or ignore it.

But the only way I can think of "meant to be" applying to Superman is if it stayed between Jerry and Joe in the first place. This is sad to say given their experiences, but I doubt that would have been for the best. Even many of the things Jerry later had a credit on didn't start with his own ideas. Not that, through secondhand accounts, he didn't have similar ideas or enjoy some execution later. But it never sounded like wanting Superman back was really about what to do or not do with the character, and in any case he'd designed the marriage and procreation of Superman on enough occasions to see some follow through. They didn't last in his stories and I also think Jon will go away eventually (like it or not this age thing is clearly a nail in the coffin). So I enjoy him for now.

You make a valid point man. And these characters aren't the property of any one person but a corporation that is far more interested in their brand and merchandising power than any aspect of characterization. But there's still limits and degrees to it. I mean, would you think it "made sense" for Batman to suddenly, and permanently, gain super powers? What if, for the next forty years, Bruce was going to be a super human. Would you say that made sense for the franchise and character and was a natural evolution of who Bruce Wayne is? Probably not. Maybe you'd get a kick out of it and enjoy it but you're gonna know that, really, Batman isn't supposed to be superhuman. That's a more extreme example than Clark having a kid (and there is indeed precedent going way, way back, though those stories never "counted") but you see what I'm saying right?

Happy belated father's day btw, Acsended. I never take it for granted that someone will respond within a day.

And the same to you, good sir! My apologies for not saying anything yesterday to anyone, we kept things so low key (by my request) it sort of actually slipped my mind.