Long Live The Legion!!! Legion of Superheroes: Millenium with Bendis and Sook An

[twincast]

Four things I noticed when I first saw this image:

1. Yep, definitely no visible Invisible Kid, if any at all. (If that is a call-back to Reboot Jacques, it's IMO a bad one.)
2. I can't find the radioactive skeleton anywhere, either. (It's honestly driving me a bit crazy; I mean, they must be there, right?)
3. The mystery character has a tail; don't think I had noticed that before.
4. Dawnstar seems to have physical wings again. Cool.

And one thing I realized just now: With the Ranzz family's change in ethnicity, now all of DC's characters with a standard array of electricity powers are - effectively - Congoid humans. At least the major ones, that is; I may very well be forgetting a minor character or two. That's kind of weird, but whatever.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Um, well, yeah.

I mean, the very white and not African at all Jack Kirby created and designed the fictional nation of Wakanda. Kirby essentially hyper-stylized African grab, traditions, imagery, and customs in order to make his fake African nation.

So, your defense to a white guy in 2019 appropriating Native American design and aesthetics (again, wrongly) is that it's okay because another white guy did the same thing to African design and aesthetics in 1966?

However, I would definitely not compare the two cases because the way Lee and Kirby portrayed Wakanda was actually a refutation of Western stereotypes and attitudes toward African nations. That doesn't seem to be what's happening here with Dawnstar. T'Challa was also not the only African character in the Black Panther mythos.

Hell Dawnstar's original outfit is literally just a white person taking vaguely Native American clothing and making it sexy.

It still managed not to be as gaudy or as offensive as the redesign. As you said, it was vaguely inspired by Native aesthetics. It didn't purport to straight-up steal from them. And the Post-Infinite Crisis update managed to maintain the classic aesthetics of the original look and update it in a modern way without being gaudy, which the new redesign fails to do.

Like, dude, you can just not like a thing.

I'm far from the only person pointing out how it's racist. In fact, that's probably the #1 complaint I see about Dawnstar's new costume.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm still not sure about this version of Lightning Lad having a different skin color if this is supposed to be the new current version of the Legion especially since Invisible Kid II was a long time member of the Legion



I just think making them a new generation following the original Legion's footsteps would have been a much better choice instead creating "another" new version of the Legion this like what the 5th time DC changed the Legion?

And such a great costume, too. Simple, clean, and dynamic all in one.

[Superlad93]

So, your defense to a white guy in 2019 appropriating Native American design and aesthetics (again, wrongly) is that it's okay because another white guy did the same thing to African design and aesthetics in 1966?

100% Yes.

Because you see, aesthetically the Wakandans still dressed like this and carried around spears and shields even though they were so technologically advanced. By the logic of appropriation that you're putting forth, this is racist. The Wakandans still have an actual trial by combat to decide their leader. By your logic this is appropriation, parody, and just flat out racist.

But, oh, wait, Black Panther was realized on screen in 2018 by a black director and a predominately black cast and crew and it retained literally all of that. It then went on to be beloved by millions--quite a lot of them being black people (myself included). large numbers of the cast even sport legitimate warpaint on more than one occasion.

And before you reply please, please, PLEASE stay keenly aware that we're talking about aesthetic and look because that's litterally all we have on Dawnstar at the moment. Anyways, you have the fool...

It still managed not to be as gaudy or as offensive as the redesign. As you said, it was vaguely inspired by Native aesthetics. It didn't purport to straight-up steal from them.

If anything at all comes from this exchange, it is my genuine hope that you understand the palpable irony of this comment. It's astounding and shockingly tone deaf.

[Frontier]

If it's any consolation they'll probably fall back to Dawnstar's older look eventually anyways .

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

100% Yes.

Because you see, aesthetically the Wakandans still dressed like this and carried around spears and shields even though they were so technologically advanced. By the logic of appropriation that you're putting forth, this is racist. The Wakandans still have an actual trial by combat to decide their leader. By your logic this is appropriation, parody, and just flat out racist.

Yeah, you could absolutely make the argument that that was an inappropriate appropriation and cast African nations in a stereotypical light. I can admit that.

But, oh, wait, Black Panther was realized on screen in 2018 by a black director and a predominately black cast and crew and it retained literally all of that. It then went on to be beloved by millions--quite a lot of them being black people (myself included). large numbers of the cast even sport legitimate warpaint on more than one occasion.

Again, because Black Panther embraced afro-futurism in a way that made Wakanda out to be a world leader. That is not really analogous to this design for Dawnstar, which is literally just Ryan Sook establishing that a Native woman should be dressed in the most stereotypical way possible. And Ryan Sook is actually one of my favorite artists, but this design is a big miss.

And before you reply please, please, PLEASE stay keenly aware that we're talking about aesthetic and look because that's litterally all we have on Dawnstar at the moment. Anyways, you have the fool...

Again, I'm not the only person taking issue with the new design being racist. It is literally the first thing out of most peoples' mouths. Just because you like it doesn't mean it's not problematic or inappropriate. I don't understand how you can't see that.

Spirit wings? Designs that don't mean anything but simply "look" Native American? Warpaint on a character who has literally never had warpaint before in any of her portrayals??? How can you NOT see that that's incredibly inappropriate?

If anything at all comes from this exchange, it is my genuine hope that you understand the palpable irony of this comment. It's astounding shockingly tone deaf.

Dude, you literally just said that it was okay to appropriate from other cultures because the precedent was set in the 60s.

The fact is this: Dawnstar's old costume was more reflective of her as a person, as opposed to only showcasing that she was a Native American woman. This new look is quite the inverse. And I'm annoyed at that since Dawny has always been my favorite Legionnaire.

[Superlad93]

Dude, you literally just said that it was okay to appropriate from other cultures because the precedent.

I am genuinely sad that you missed the irony in your previous quote. So I'll just say this: having a character dress up in a skimpy as hell, whitewashed, "boy, did I get a kick out of the Indian fella on the Village People", playboy centerfold, this-is-what-a-tone-deaf-and-vaguely-racist-white-sorority-girl-would-wear-to-a-Halloween-party suit is ASTONISHINGLY problematic. All the more so when that character is actually supposed to be Native American. That version and her LITERALLY culturally appropriated, white washed AF tasseled boots and....and....F#&KING LOINCLOTH are problematic, my friend. And what's worse is that her suit had no visually distinctive symbols or marking to denote any sort of tribe, linage, or meaning past sexy and vaguely Native American-- especially when linage was very much implied to be the reason why she'd dress like that. No. In actuality she looked that way because that was the design of a sexy nondescript Native American woman.

And to be clear, I don't have any strong feelings on Dawnstar's new look one way or the other. I just see the irony in the in the critiques being leveled at it. This is not the hill to die on.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I am genuinely sad that you missed the irony in your previous quote. So I'll just say this: having a character dress up in a skimpy as hell, whitewashed, "boy, did I get a kick out of the Indian fella on the Village People", playboy centerfold, this-is-what-tone-deaf-and-vaguely-racist-sorority-girl-would-wear-to-a-Halloween-party suit is ASTONISHINGLY problematic. All the more so when that character is actually supposed to be Native American. That version and her LITERALLY culturally appropriated, white washed AF tasseled boots and....and....F#&KING LOINCLOTH are problematic, my friend. And what's worse is that her suit had no visually distinctive symbols or marking to denote any sort of tribe, linage, or meaning past sexy and vaguely Native American-- especially when linage was very much implied to be the reason why she'd dress like that. No. In actuality she looked that way because that was the design of a sexy nondescript Native American woman.

And her new look is not appropriated? Again, if you think her original look was culturally insensitive, then how is her new look not 100X worse? Again, she wears freaking WARPAINT into battle now. Though FYI, Dawnstar's always been of Anasazi Indian heritage.

Also, and I'm not defending the skimpiness of her original look, but she debuted at a time when skimpiness was unfortunately the norm for superheroines. I mean, you don't even have to go outside of the Legion for other examples. Look at Shadow Lass. She wore less than Dawny.

That's why I point to the Post-Infinite Crisis design for Dawny as a great example of a redesign done right. It didn't look like something she wore only because she was Native American and it wasn't heavily laden with visual stereotypes. And that was the point. It reflected her and who she was and captured the essence of her character.

[Superlad93]

Again, because Black Panther embraced afro-futurism in a way that made Wakanda out to be a world leader. That is not really analogous to this design for Dawnstar, which is literally just Ryan Sook establishing that a Native woman should be dressed in the most stereotypical way possible. And Ryan Sook is actually one of my favorite artists, but this design is a big miss.

But they can still be seen with warpaint all over their bodies, literally throwing spears, and deciding their politics via a fight with fists and knives. That's still super duper in there and part of the aesthetic. That's still direct from Kirby. Can the argument not also be that this movie is also product of racist "appropriation?"

I mean, if Black Panther is allowed to have its characters and world stay so proud of their heritage that their political structure, traditional dress, and even basic weaponry remain linked to it, then surely Dawnstar and her people can too.

And her new look is not appropriated?

Not directly offensive. Her closes remain functionally just a close fitting superhero suit while heavily implying some sort of fictitious heritage that's inspired by Native Americans. Kind of like Black Panther.

Again, she wears freaking WARPAINT into battle now.

And Black Panther, his sister, and his royal guard wear warpaint, decide political elections through fights with spears and fist, and commune with a panther god because I guess that's how all us Africans do, right? Come on now...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But they can still be seen with warpaint all over their bodies, literally throwing spears, and deciding their politics via a fight with fists and knives. That's still super duper in there and part of the aesthetic. That's still direct from Kirby. Can the argument not also be that this movie is also product of racist "appropriation?"

I may be misremembering the movie, but didn't they abandon the practice of deciding their rulers that way by the end of it? But, as I said, you could make the argument that that is an unfair portrayal of African tribal culture.

I mean, if Black Panther is allowed to have its characters and world stay so proud of their heritage that their political structure, traditional dress, and even basic weaponry remain linked to it, then surely Dawnstar and her people can too.

Well, again, I said that you could say that the way Black Panther showed the culture of African tribes was problematic if you believed that to be the case. Though Wakanda is fictional while Dawnstar has always been established as an Anasazi Indian woman. The Anasazi are not a fictional tribe. They're very real. So, uh, this design kinda just comes off as Sook exaggerating and blending their culture with other Native cultures to make a costume that seemed "Native enough." That is problematic and pretty racist, even if unintentionally so.

Not directly offensive. Her closes remain functionally just a close fitting superhero suit while heavily implying some sort of fictitious heritage that's inspired by Native Americans. Kind of like Black Panther.

Again, Dawnstar's heritage is not fictitious. She's Anasazi.

And Black Panther, his sister, and his royal guard wear warpaint, decide political elections through fights with spears and fist, and commune with a panther god because I guess that's how all us Africans do, right? Come on now...

Again, I'm not holding up Black Panther as the epitome of truthful representation in comics. You were the one who brought it into the debate.

[Superlad93]

Though Wakanda is fictional while Dawnstar has always been established as an Anasazi Indian woman. The Anasazi are not a fictional tribe.

And now she could very likely just be from either a fictional tribe or, since it's the 32nd century, a fictional tribe that started as Anasazi? Possibly even because DC giving Dawnstar a real life tribe and then dressing her like playboy centerfold in a whitewashed, Village People Halloween costume may not have been the best idea ever.

Again, I'm not holding up Black Panther as the epitome of truthful representation in comics. You were the one who brought it into the debate.

Yes. I did. To specifically illustrate the point that Black Panther and all of it's warpaint, deciding political elections through fights with spears and fist, and communing with a panther gods exist on the biggest stage possible and vast majority of people didn't call it racist. The director, cast, and crew were predominantly black and they kept the warpaint, decide political elections through fights with spears and fist, and communing with a panther gods, and, again, the majority of people didn't call it racist. One of its main characters who is supposed to be a genius literally wears warpaint to battle, and it's on her poster. And hey, as a Nigerian American, I very much approved--all the warpaint, deciding political elections through fights with spears and fist, and communing with a panther gods included.

So I don't see why this Dawnstar image, as a singular image, would be racist. Whitewashing--as in removing the implied cultural touchstones-- would be more problematic conceptually. I'd have been made at Black Panther if it didn't proudly emphasized its inherent culture with and without its advancements. I can't speak for Native Americans, but on principle, I have to imagine there's overlap there.

[Agent Z]

This conversation shows the importance of having racial minorities involved in the creative process. The issues with Dawnstar's design are not negated by the issues of her original one. They're both problematic but in different ways. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Superlad93]

This conversation shows the importance of having racial minorities involved in the creative process.

This never a bad idea. That said, I on principle agree with Christopher Priest when he says that since he's a writer he should be able to write whomever wants so long as he does the leg -work and researches his subject. So I very much respect it when I see Bendis make it a point to get David Walker to co write a young black character, or when he's handing over Amethyst's solo to a mystery female writer. Write whomever you want, but always remember to share the mic.

[Agent Z]

This never a bad idea. That said, I on principle agree with Christopher Priest when he says that since he's a writer he should be able to write whomever wants so long as he does the leg -work and researches his subject. So I very much respect it when I see Bendis make it a point to get David Walker to co write a young black character, or when he's handing over Amethyst's solo to a mystery female writer. Write whomever you want, but always remember to share the mic.

This I agree with but from what I've heard of, this doesn't seem to be the case with this new version of Dawnstar.

[Superlad93]

This I agree with but from what I've heard of, this doesn't seem to be the case with this new version of Dawnstar.

What have you heard?

I've been following news/updates on Bendis and his books, and I haven't heard him or Sook say anything of their influences or their reference points or if this was just them coming up with stuff. The most I've heard is that they've been in per production with this launch for about a year. If he didn't directly consult someone, then hopefully some from of research was was done or direct inspiration was taken.