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  1. #241
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Well, this puts an end to the whole “they retconned Apocalypse” complaint.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelatFox...orce_question/
    So what we saw in Apocalyse wasn't actually the Phoenix force? It was just Jeans power, which is a fiery bird that looks just happens to look exactly like the Phoenix force?

    If they want people to know that what we saw in Apocalyse wasn't the Phoenix the smart thing to do isn't to explain it a year in Entertainment Weekly. The smart way to inform the audience that what we saw isn't Phoenix is to not have Jeans power look like a fiery bird.

    It's no wonder these movies were train wrecks. These guys clearly didn't know what they heck they were doing.

  2. #242
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    So what we saw in Apocalyse wasn't actually the Phoenix force? It was just Jeans power, which is a fiery bird that looks just happens to look exactly like the Phoenix force?

    If they want people to know that what we saw in Apocalyse wasn't the Phoenix the smart thing to do isn't to explain it a year in Entertainment Weekly. The smart way to inform the audience that what we saw isn't Phoenix is to not have Jeans power look like a fiery bird.

    It's no wonder these movies were train wrecks. These guys clearly didn't know what they heck they were doing.
    In the comics it was originally Jean’s own power and that was stated to be the case in the original trilogy. But I don’t think that is what he is saying.

    Also, most people don’t read comics.

  3. #243
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Perhaps because he's framed this as a "second chance". Wouldn't that imply there was a first?
    Yes, because it was another second take at the Phoenix storyline. Like how Deadpool was a second take at Wade’s origin.

    Either way, it’s a fallacy of presumption.
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-20-2019 at 03:16 AM.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Yes, because it was another second take at the Phoenix storyline. Like how Deadpool was a second take at Wade’s origin.

    Either way, it’s a fallacy of presumption.
    What exactly are people presuming?

  5. #245
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    In the comics it was originally Jean’s own power and that was stated to be the case in the original trilogy. But I don’t think that is what he is saying.

    Also, most people don’t read comics.
    Even if you never read the comics, if the idea is that Jean is going to eventually come into contact with the Phoenix (a fiery bird), then presenting her powers as a fiery bird probably isn't a good idea if you don't want people to assume she already has the fiery bird entity. Making her powers look exactly like the Phoenix if they don't want you to assume she doesn't have the phoenix yet is just common sense. Again, point being they just don't know what the heck they are doing.

  6. #246
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    What exactly are people presuming?
    That Kinberg was head writer(when it was really Zak Penn) and that he had tons of creative control when a simple google search will tell you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Even if you never read the comics, if the idea is that Jean is going to eventually come into contact with the Phoenix (a fiery bird), then presenting her powers as a fiery bird probably isn't a good idea if you don't want people to assume she already has the fiery bird entity. Making her powers look exactly like the Phoenix if they don't want you to assume she doesn't have the phoenix yet is just common sense. Again, point being they just don't know what the heck they are doing.
    Its never called the Phoenix in the movie and it looks like a purple space cloud instead of a fiery bird. So I doubt someone unfamiliar with the source material would be thinking about that.
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-20-2019 at 08:23 AM.

  7. #247
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    That Kinberg was head writer(when it was really Zak Penn) and that he had tons of creative control when a simple google search will tell you otherwise.



    Its never called the Phoenix in the movie and it looks like a purple space cloud instead of a fiery bird. So I doubt someone unfamiliar with the source material would be thinking about that.
    Holy Snickies planet destroying space cloud! Maybe it was Fox's Galactus?

  8. #248
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    Saw this a couple of days ago. Yeah the dark force in this movie was like a space cloud I remember it being kina orangey tho. But at the end you see a phoenix flying off so. Not sure if it was that much worse than X3. But yeah continuity in these movies is non-existent after 3.

  9. #249
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    That Kinberg was head writer(when it was really Zak Penn) and that he had tons of creative control when a simple google search will tell you otherwise.



    Its never called the Phoenix in the movie and it looks like a purple space cloud instead of a fiery bird. So I doubt someone unfamiliar with the source material would be thinking about that.
    Enough people familiar with the source material called them on it.

    Maybe that's a part of the problem ... Fox never really considered the comic book audience when they made comic book movies.

  10. #250
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Holy Snickies planet destroying space cloud! Maybe it was Fox's Galactus?
    Fox does seem to like giant space clouds for some reason. Can't imagine what a marvel cosmic movie under fox would look like. It would be like a lot of fog or something.

  11. #251
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Enough people familiar with the source material called them on it.

    Maybe that's a part of the problem ... Fox never really considered the comic book audience when they made comic book movies.
    Interestingly, that is exactly what happened in the comic version before all the retcons.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    That Kinberg was head writer(when it was really Zak Penn) and that he had tons of creative control when a simple google search will tell you otherwise.
    .
    Kinberg has referred to Last Stand as his over and over again. Of course he was only part of the creative process, but that's how every movie happens. He was a central figure in the making of both movies and has put himself in that position with his own quotes. When someone does that, it's no longer a presumption to think of them that way.

  13. #253
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Interestingly, that is exactly what happened in the comic version before all the retcons.
    They made the decision to connect Jean's power to a fiery cosmic bird. They could have went the original comics route and completely avoided that if they really wanted to, but they didn't.

  14. #254
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Kinberg has referred to Last Stand as his over and over again. Of course he was only part of the creative process, but that's how every movie happens. He was a central figure in the making of both movies and has put himself in that position with his own quotes. When someone does that, it's no longer a presumption to think of them that way.
    From what I’ve read he regrets not fighting harder for the storyline being front and center.

    Interview from 2014.

    I know The Dark Phoenix story in 'The Last Stand' meant a lot to you.

    Yes, yes it did. And, I mean, we dismantled some stuff from 'X1' and 'X2' as well. It was interesting. There are a lot of things about 'X3' that I love and there are a lot of things that I regret.

    What do you regret?

    I regret that The Dark Phoenix story wasn't the primary story of the movie.

    But that wasn't your choice.

    It wasn't my choice.

    You wanted that to be the main story.

    I wanted The Dark Phoenix story, but I regret where the movie ended up. And so, weirdly, this was sort of my opportunity, a little like the characters in 'Days of Future Past' going back and improving their younger selves with the lessons they've learned as wiser men. It's sort of a chance for me to go back and do differently what I did ten years ago on 'X3.'

    Knowing it wouldn't be the main storyline, would you have not fought as hard for The Dark Phoenix?

    No, I would have fought harder for The Dark Phoenix. Listen, I think if we made that movie today, there are a lot of things that would be different. The universe today, culturally, is more open to a darker superhero film. And the darkness of her story was a little bit daunting on a huge $200 million studio movie. And, it would be less daunting today.
    https://screencrush.com/simon-kinber...f-future-past/

    “It's sort of a chance for me to go back and do differently what I did ten years ago on 'X3.'”

    Very interesting statement and depressing in insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They made the decision to connect Jean's power to a fiery cosmic bird. They could have went the original comics route and completely avoided that if they really wanted to, but they didn't.
    The comic version was that Jean tapped into a (nameless) primal universe force that unlocked her full potential and “Phoenix” was just a code name.
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-20-2019 at 05:18 PM.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    “It's sort of a chance for me to go back and do differently what I did ten years ago on 'X3.'”

    Very interesting statement and depressing in insight.
    Sure but note the bold. That's why it's not a presumption.

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