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  1. #256
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Even if you never read the comics, if the idea is that Jean is going to eventually come into contact with the Phoenix (a fiery bird), then presenting her powers as a fiery bird probably isn't a good idea if you don't want people to assume she already has the fiery bird entity. Making her powers look exactly like the Phoenix if they don't want you to assume she doesn't have the phoenix yet is just common sense. Again, point being they just don't know what the heck they are doing.
    Yeah, one movie was clearly written for one model (Phoenix was just Jean's powers switched all the way on), while the other was something completely different (Phoenix was only Jean possessed by the space energy). At this point, I don't think there's any point to worry about X-Men continuity anymore; beyond the fact that the series is over and done (aside from New Mutants, which is apparently scrubbing all references to the series, anyways), it's just a mess. Enjoy them for what they were and just leave them at that.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  2. #257
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    This article came out months ago. With Olivia Munn (Psylocke) complaining how little Singer and Kinberg knew about the material they were adapting.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/ol...en-1202157995/

    With that being said. It's easy to see where the confusion/retcon/different explanations of what Jean's powers are (between X2, X3, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix) from the writers/producers/directors comes from. The don't care or know what they were talking about/doing. They were taking the piss (liberties you know you shouldn't take) with the X-Men IP, because they could and had some successes in the past.


    Rewatching the X-Men films in a marathon this week. I can't help but feel that DOFP should be considered the last of the main X-Men movies. With Logan and Deadpool 2 being the finales for solo projects.
    Last edited by Doctor Know; 09-21-2019 at 04:34 AM.

  3. #258
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    This article came out months ago. With Olivia Munn (Psylocke) complaining how little Singer and Kinberg knew about the material they were adapting.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/ol...en-1202157995/

    With that being said. It's easy to see where the confusion/retcon/different explanations of what Jean's powers are (between X2, X3, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix) from the writers/producers/directors comes from. The don't care or know what they were talking about/doing. They were taking the piss (liberties you know you shouldn't take) with the X-Men IP, because they could and had some successes in the past.


    Rewatching the X-Men films in a marathon this week. I can't help but feel that DOFP should be considered the last of the main X-Men movies. With Logan and Deadpool 2 being the finales for solo projects.
    Given FC and DoFP were actually pretty darn good, I can't fault them for thinking they had something going as far as sucessfully reviving the franchise. But yeah... in HINDSIGHT Doft would have been the perfect place to end all of this on a very logial and very high note for the X-Men films (Logan can cap off the entire universe).

    I think the last couple X-Men movies exposed why the MCU did better. The Fox guys didn't really have any sort of game plan... and they were just cranking these movies out as cash grabs rather than being comic fanboys who dreamt of seeing these characters on the big screen. Probably Sony and WB's problems too.

  4. #259
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Given FC and DoFP were actually pretty darn good, I can't fault them for thinking they had something going as far as sucessfully reviving the franchise. But yeah... in HINDSIGHT Doft would have been the perfect place to end all of this on a very logial and very high note for the X-Men films (Logan can cap off the entire universe).
    I will concede that Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix do feel more like add-ons then anything else. Logan is really hard to see as the ender of the series, given its tonal differences and the way that it's starting premise is so different from Days of Future Past's (in the former, mutants have been slowly dying off for decades, while see younger mutants alive and well at the end of the latter). Even beyond that idea that Logan was officially declared an alternate timeline by Marvel documents (the Marvel Wiki used to link to it, where I first saw it), I tend to see it more as a finale to Hugh Jackman and Sir Patrick Stewart's depictions of Wolverine and Professor X then anything else, if that makes any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the last couple X-Men movies exposed why the MCU did better. The Fox guys didn't really have any sort of game plan... and they were just cranking these movies out as cash grabs rather than being comic fanboys who dreamt of seeing these characters on the big screen. Probably Sony and WB's problems too.
    Not sure if I'd say they were just cash grabs and I don't think being a huge fan of the source material means that a filmmaker will do it well, or vice versa. However, I think I agree that the Fox movies didn't plan ahead very well, and even the attempts to do that often fell apart due to lack of communication; Apocalypse was supposed to set up Logan with the credits scene, but the latter just ignored that (although given that the two production teams weren't sharing notes and James Mangold did admit in an interview that he freely contradicted the previous movies if it prevented him from making the movie he wanted*, it's amazing that Logan fits as well as it does). Apocalypse set up Jean Grey becoming the phoenix and then the actual movie just ignores it and invents a brand-new version of Phoenix, which kinda wastes the latter (and is also kinda an ill-fit with the intended themes of the film). While I did like the Fox movie series overall, I think the planning of the series and creating stuff that build on each other is something that Marvel Studios can improve on.

    *In that interview, Mangold had some pretty nasty things to say about cinematic universes and seeing them as stifling the arts (unfair, I think, but I can understand the point that not everything should be a cinematic universe), so it is kinda funny that he wound up working for one at all.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  5. #260
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I will concede that Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix do feel more like add-ons then anything else. Logan is really hard to see as the ender of the series, given its tonal differences and the way that it's starting premise is so different from Days of Future Past's (in the former, mutants have been slowly dying off for decades, while see younger mutants alive and well at the end of the latter). Even beyond that idea that Logan was officially declared an alternate timeline by Marvel documents (the Marvel Wiki used to link to it, where I first saw it), I tend to see it more as a finale to Hugh Jackman and Sir Patrick Stewart's depictions of Wolverine and Professor X then anything else, if that makes any sense.



    Not sure if I'd say they were just cash grabs and I don't think being a huge fan of the source material means that a filmmaker will do it well, or vice versa. However, I think I agree that the Fox movies didn't plan ahead very well, and even the attempts to do that often fell apart due to lack of communication; Apocalypse was supposed to set up Logan with the credits scene, but the latter just ignored that (although given that the two production teams weren't sharing notes and James Mangold did admit in an interview that he freely contradicted the previous movies if it prevented him from making the movie he wanted*, it's amazing that Logan fits as well as it does). Apocalypse set up Jean Grey becoming the phoenix and then the actual movie just ignores it and invents a brand-new version of Phoenix, which kinda wastes the latter (and is also kinda an ill-fit with the intended themes of the film). While I did like the Fox movie series overall, I think the planning of the series and creating stuff that build on each other is something that Marvel Studios can improve on.

    *In that interview, Mangold had some pretty nasty things to say about cinematic universes and seeing them as stifling the arts (unfair, I think, but I can understand the point that not everything should be a cinematic universe), so it is kinda funny that he wound up working for one at all.
    I don't believe that being a fan necessarily means a filmaker will make a better movie... but I DO believe that being a fan means you're better able to understand what the core fanbase is looking for in a movie. Which isn't to say catering to that comic book fanbase should necessarily be your priority... but there's a reason you are mining the source material in the first place. If you can capture the essence of what made it work in the original source material while still producing something the mainstream audience can understand and enjoy, you're justifying the reasons you're mining that source material in the first place.

  6. #261
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, one movie was clearly written for one model (Phoenix was just Jean's powers switched all the way on), while the other was something completely different (Phoenix was only Jean possessed by the space energy). At this point, I don't think there's any point to worry about X-Men continuity anymore; beyond the fact that the series is over and done (aside from New Mutants, which is apparently scrubbing all references to the series, anyways), it's just a mess. Enjoy them for what they were and just leave them at that.
    Jean wasn't possessed by the space energy in the movie. Kinberg said back in 2017 it awakened/triggered/created the Phoenix Force that was already inside her in the link I posted.

    “Jean absorbs those solar flares and then hurls them back out into space,” explains director Simon Kinberg of the sequence shown in the above exclusive concept art.

    “That’s what triggers, awakens, creates this Phoenix force and voice inside her. What appears to the world to be another heroic victory by the X-Men in saving stranded people in space we realize is the the thing that begins the unraveling of Jean and the unraveling of secrets Charles told her.”
    https://ew.com/movies/2017/12/07/dar...mpression=true

    All of Jean's actions and losing control of her powers were the result of her childhood trauma resurfacing.

    When those memories come flooding back to her, Jean loses all control over her powers
    https://www.firstpost.com/entertainm...t-6752851.html

    Same thing happened with Xavier in DOFP. His trauma had caused his powers to go out of control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    This article came out months ago. With Olivia Munn (Psylocke) complaining how little Singer and Kinberg knew about the material they were adapting.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/ol...en-1202157995/

    With that being said. It's easy to see where the confusion/retcon/different explanations of what Jean's powers are (between X2, X3, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix) from the writers/producers/directors comes from. The don't care or know what they were talking about/doing. They were taking the piss (liberties you know you shouldn't take) with the X-Men IP, because they could and had some successes in the past.


    Rewatching the X-Men films in a marathon this week. I can't help but feel that DOFP should be considered the last of the main X-Men movies. With Logan and Deadpool 2 being the finales for solo projects.
    I read about that and she only mentioned Psylocke. Every explanation of Jean's powers in the movies has been rooted in the comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Given FC and DoFP were actually pretty darn good, I can't fault them for thinking they had something going as far as sucessfully reviving the franchise. But yeah... in HINDSIGHT Doft would have been the perfect place to end all of this on a very logial and very high note for the X-Men films (Logan can cap off the entire universe).
    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I will concede that Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix do feel more like add-ons then anything else.
    DOFP ended with several loose ends in regards to Mystique and Magneto.
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-21-2019 at 01:29 PM.

  7. #262
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post

    I think the last couple X-Men movies exposed why the MCU did better. The Fox guys didn't really have any sort of game plan... and they were just cranking these movies out as cash grabs rather than being comic fanboys who dreamt of seeing these characters on the big screen. Probably Sony and WB's problems too.
    Actually, Kinberg did have a plan. He used Days of Future Past to give him a chance to tell the Phoenix story again. Said so back in 2014 to Screen Crush, as I pointed out on the last page. He mentioned this again back in May of this year to Screen Rant.

    Kinberg also stated during the interview that working on Days of Future Past actually helped to conceive the idea for Dark Phoenix. He said, "I actually would say that the Dark Phoenix idea was was set up in the end of Days of Future Past. In changing the timeline of Days of Future Past, part of the reason I did that was I wanted a chance to tell the Dark Phoenix story in a more fulsome way where it's really like the full Dark Phoenix story and focuses on Jean's story different than X-Men: The Last Stand." So it seems Kinberg had plans for Dark Phoenix long before the film's conception. He added, "My vision for it, I think, even going back to Days of Future Past, is pretty consistent, because really what I felt when I was thinking about doing eventually a Dark Phoenix story was the idea that we would be telling Jean's story. That we would be really focused. That we would narrow the scope of the film down even though there's an intergalactic element and a scale and spectacle that you expect from these movies." In other words, while the film does culminate the current cycle of X-Men films, it is still very much Jean's story at the film's core.
    https://screenrant.com/xmen-dark-pho...nect-director/
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-21-2019 at 01:24 PM.

  8. #263
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Actually, Kinberg did have a plan. He used Days of Future Past to give him a chance to tell the Phoenix story again. Said so back in 2014 to Screen Crush, as I pointed out on the last page. He mentioned this again back in May of this year to Screen Rant.



    https://screenrant.com/xmen-dark-pho...nect-director/
    If he planned any part of this then he's a worse filmmaker than I thought even with the cutting of a sequel and reshoots he still got the idea of Phoenix wrong from the word go.

    Last Stand did it better IMO for what little screen time was devoted to Jean/Phoenix.

  9. #264
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Jean wasn't possessed by the space energy in the movie. Kinberg said back in 2017 it awakened/triggered/created the Phoenix Force that was already inside her in the link I posted.
    If that was his intent, that would've been really important info to actually put in the movie itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    DOFP ended with several loose ends in regards to Mystique and Magneto.
    Fair enough.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  10. #265
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Actually, Kinberg did have a plan. He used Days of Future Past to give him a chance to tell the Phoenix story again. Said so back in 2014 to Screen Crush, as I pointed out on the last page. He mentioned this again back in May of this year to Screen Rant.



    https://screenrant.com/xmen-dark-pho...nect-director/
    The fact that the mess we got was actually planned frankly makes him look that much worse.

  11. #266
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    If he planned any part of this then he's a worse filmmaker than I thought even with the cutting of a sequel and reshoots he still got the idea of Phoenix wrong from the word go.

    Last Stand did it better IMO for what little screen time was devoted to Jean/Phoenix.
    Are you're saying you wanted Jean to be evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    If that was his intent, that would've been really important info to actually put in the movie itself.
    It was mentioned in the movie a few times. Hank and Charles both said that the energy was making her mutation stronger. Vuk later on says that the cosmic energy was attracted to Jean because is stronger than she know, strong enough to become the greatest force in the galaxy.
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-21-2019 at 02:57 PM.

  12. #267
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The fact that the mess we got was actually planned frankly makes him look that much worse.
    Yup, it was planned. Here is an example of one of several set-ups in DOFP that were paid off in Dark Phoenix.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/commen...f_from_making/

  13. #268
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Are you're saying you wanted Jean to be evil?



    It was mentioned in the movie a few times. Hank and Charles both said that the force was making her mutation stronger. Vuk later on says that the cosmic energy was attracted to Jean because is stronger than she know, strong enough to become the greatest force in the galaxy.
    I wanted a seduction by power I wanted Jean to both love her new powers while hating what she was doing with them.

    Yeah in Dark Phoenix Jean had 5 minutes of enjoying her new powers but it felt like a high that lasted a few minutes over someone who at one point of the story revels in her new powers and the chaos they cause.

  14. #269
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    I wanted a seduction by power I wanted Jean to both love her new powers while hating what she was doing with them.

    Yeah in Dark Phoenix Jean had 5 minutes of enjoying her new powers but it felt like a high that lasted a few minutes over someone who at one point of the story revels in her new powers and the chaos they cause.
    They actually filmed that but it was cut from the final product(likely to shorten the movie so it can get more showtimes). They talked about it in interviews and there is a clip in the trailers where Jean says “it feels good”.

  15. #270
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    I wanted a seduction by power I wanted Jean to both love her new powers while hating what she was doing with them.

    Yeah in Dark Phoenix Jean had 5 minutes of enjoying her new powers but it felt like a high that lasted a few minutes over someone who at one point of the story revels in her new powers and the chaos they cause.
    DF seemed to treat the Phoenix more like a mental illness than anything else... which I think sort of sucked some of the fun out of it.

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