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  1. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Can I get a source to this, please?
    So unfortunately I don't have a source regarding how First Class came about, I just remember reading about it at the time, but here's the link regarding Vaughn's original trilogy plans:

    http://collider.com/matthew-vaughn-x...f-future-past/

  2. #167
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Hmm...

    https://old.reddit.com/r/xmen/commen...at_didnt_make/

    Kinberg back in September said that the movie was over 2 hours. I wonder why they cut out so much.

  3. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Hmm...

    https://old.reddit.com/r/xmen/commen...at_didnt_make/

    Kinberg back in September said that the movie was over 2 hours. I wonder why they cut out so much.
    For a few reasons, depending on what you believe.

    Fox was apparently very unhappy with Apocalypse because they felt it was too grand in scope and wanted a more grounded X-Men movie in Dark Phoenix. So they ordered the most simplified version of the film possible. This included cutting out several characters who were deemed unnecessary or couldn't participate in the reshoots.

    Also, the entire third act was reshot because of similarities to other Marvel movies (I've heard it was Captain Marvel but I'm not sure).

  4. #169
    Fantastic Member luprki's Avatar
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    I heard the same thing, both Fox and Disney screwed up DP

  5. #170
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    I heard the same thing, both Fox and Disney screwed up DP
    No, just Fox. The filmmakers are actually thankful that Disney has the rights.

    Meanwhile, one former Fox executive notes, "If the merger didn't happen, some of these people would be worried about their jobs. If the merger didn't happen, people would be clamoring for Fox to do what Sony did with Spider-Man and ask for Marvel's help."
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-plans-1216859

    I wouldn’t be surprised if they made the movie under 2 hours to get more screenings after they moved it to June.

  6. #171
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    For a few reasons, depending on what you believe.

    Fox was apparently very unhappy with Apocalypse because they felt it was too grand in scope and wanted a more grounded X-Men movie in Dark Phoenix. So they ordered the most simplified version of the film possible. This included cutting out several characters who were deemed unnecessary or couldn't participate in the reshoots.

    Also, the entire third act was reshot because of similarities to other Marvel movies (I've heard it was Captain Marvel but I'm not sure).
    All of this rings true. DP was a very grounded movie, thank goodness. Apocalypse was trying to be a big, grand movie but ultimately lacked the gravitas for it.

    Kinsberg has said the original ending was in space. So the reshoots of it were about the same topic - having the movie be more .. down to earth. I'm glad. Apocalypse was again such a poor treatment of a big grandiose villain.

    On a side note, its interesting reading how this movie was planned to be the culmination of the X-Men saga. The movie pretty much ends just like X2 did. It really never got better than that in what came between that movie and this one.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 07-05-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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  7. #172
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    They didn't make more prequels, just sequels with the prequel cast. Besides,
    Sequels with the prequel cast is still a prequel. The franchise already had a sequel to First Class. Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart are supposed to be the older versions of James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender.

    IMHO, I'm not sure that was the problem in and of itself, but the execution not always working as well as could be wished.
    The execution would have worked if Kinberg stuck to the oringal plans from First Class. Matthew Vaughn's plan was not to make sequels of prequels, His plan was to complete a prequel trilogy. Days of future past was meant to be the last film in the prequel trilogy that ties everything together for the prequel and sequel cast, closing a much tired franchise.

    (Besides, the exploration of the rest of the universe was in the works when the Disney buyout scrapped the series.)
    One of the gazillion reasons, Logan was really the end of everything is because we know we won't get much with the Disney buyout either. From what Disney has done with Spiderman, Disney won't explore the xmen universe as it should be explored. Their exploration will have it tie into what Disney has established about the MCU. I was never a fan of the Disney buyout, most importantly for the story constraints I never wanted X-Men to be in. I was against the head runner of X-Men at Fox and all the bad decisions he kept making, after having so many chances to learn from mistakes. Fox should have scrapped the series long before Disney ever decided to buy Fox. The Disney buyout is not responsible for Dark Phoenix bombing, the movie would have still bombed if Disney never bought Fox.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 07-06-2019 at 02:20 AM.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    The execution would have worked if Kinberg stuck to the oringal plans from First Class. Matthew Vaughn's plan was not to make sequels of prequels, His plan was to complete a prequel trilogy. Days of future past was meant to be the last film in the prequel trilogy that ties everything together for the prequel and sequel cast, closing a much tired franchise.
    According to Matthew Vaughn that was the studio’s call rather than Kinberg.


    The Disney buyout is not responsible for Dark Phoenix bombing, the movie would have still bombed if Disney never bought Fox.
    They are not directly responsible for it bombing but the buy-out did hurt the film’s marketing according to various sources and Kinberg himself. It’s a contributing factor.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Technically, but that's kinda putting a fine point on it (not to mention that DP kinda invalidates the DOFP ending).
    It doesnít really invalidate it since Jean is still alive at the end.

  10. #175
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Sequels with the prequel cast is still a prequel. The franchise already had a sequel to First Class. Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart are supposed to be the older versions of James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender.
    That was a prequel. Everything else was its own thing, tied to the prequel as a sequel and the originals as a parallel universe trope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    The execution would have worked if Kinberg stuck to the oringal plans from First Class. Matthew Vaughn's plan was not to make sequels of prequels, His plan was to complete a prequel trilogy. Days of future past was meant to be the last film in the prequel trilogy that ties everything together for the prequel and sequel cast, closing a much tired franchise.
    We don't know that; the movies still could've flopped. The final result could've worked with some fine tuning, so it was the execution, not the premise, that was at fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    One of the gazillion reasons, Logan was really the end of everything is because we know we won't get much with the Disney buyout either.
    Apparently the story now is that Logan is an AU story (think that kinda takes away some of the power and weight, but it would explain some of the continuity issues and the movie is still a darn good one and a good send off for the actors irregardless). Either way, we don't know what Marvel Studios have in store for the X-Men franchise period, so we have nothing to base any speculation on until we start getting announcements on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    From what Disney has done with Spiderman, Disney won't explore the xmen universe as it should be explored.
    The Spider-Man movies tell us nothing about how the X-Men movies will be done; different franchises with different creative teams and different needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Their exploration will have it tie into what Disney has established about the MCU.
    Yeah, that's how cinematic universes work? (That said, we have seen plenty of instances where the sub-franchises of the MUC do their own thing against the backdrop of the larger series, so we know the X-Men series could do the same.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I was never a fan of the Disney buyout, most importantly for the story constraints I never wanted X-Men to be in.
    What constraints? The MCU has shown a pretty good cross-section of story genres, plots, and willingness to go to places that it's cheerful reputation would not have suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I was against the head runner of X-Men at Fox and all the bad decisions he kept making, after having so many chances to learn from mistakes. Fox should have scrapped the series long before Disney ever decided to buy Fox. The Disney buyout is not responsible for Dark Phoenix bombing, the movie would have still bombed if Disney never bought Fox.
    I don't think there's any single smoking gun for DP's financial failure, but, by all accounts, between Fox and Disney, the latter was apparently the only one who gave a darn about the film and tried to give it the marketing it deserved. Heck, I wasn't a fan of the buyout, given that I wanted the Fox series to continue, but if it ends this way, at least it's going to a studio that's proven time and again that they can handle it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    It doesn’t really invalidate it since Jean is still alive at the end.
    She's a cosmic bird entity at the end of the DP, not a human like she was in the other film. That does not compute.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post

    She's a cosmic bird entity at the end of the DP, not a human like she was in the other film. That does not compute.
    She was a giant bird at the end of X2 as well. So Iím sure we will reform again, like in the old timeline.

  12. #177
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    Did anybody notice that the ending of Dark Phoenix is the complete opposite of the source material?

    -Jean doesn’t become evil after people try to manipulate her.
    -Jean avoids destroying a planet.
    -Jean’s emotions make her strong instead of going mad.
    -Jean takes control of the power inside her instead of it controlling her.
    -Jean lives.

  13. #178
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    She was a giant bird at the end of X2 as well. So I’m sure we will reform again, like in the old timeline.
    Forgot about that. Could work, but still, it really seems like the two movies have mutually exclusive fates for the character.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  14. #179
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    That was a prequel. Everything else was its own thing, tied to the prequel as a sequel and the originals as a parallel universe trope.
    Everything else would never have been its own thing as long as the Apocalypse reboot had strong ties to the original trilogy. Kingberg actually wanted Hugh Jackman in Dark Phoenix. When and if Tobey Maguire ever makes a cameo in the MCU, it would be as a respect to his Spiderman series not as a desperation to keep a franchise alive.


    We don't know that; the movies still could've flopped. The final result could've worked with some fine tuning, so it was the execution, not the premise, that was at fault.
    Apocalypse was a flop
    Simon Kinberg last great work was Fantastic 4 and Apocalypse. He had messed up Dark Phoenix once.
    The movie had zero good will.
    What other movies has he directed again?

    What constraints? The MCU has shown a pretty good cross-section of story genres, plots, and willingness to go to places that it's cheerful reputation would not have suggested.
    This is not the same MCU I usually watch and do like for what it is. Just because something is immature doesnt mean I can't enjoy it.

    I don't think there's any single smoking gun for DP's financial failure, but, by all accounts, between Fox and Disney, the latter was apparently the only one who gave a darn about the film and tried to give it the marketing it deserved. Heck, I wasn't a fan of the buyout, given that I wanted the Fox series to continue, .
    Why do people think a Kinberg directed and written xmen movie had a chance to be successful. Kinberg has more defenders than Zack Snyder on cbr.

    but if it ends this way, at least it's going to a studio that's proven time and again that they can handle it
    When was Spiderman a different creative franchise with a different creative team. A studio that can't handle Spiderman properly won't handle X-Men properly. Both Fox and Disney have different problems when it comes to X-Men. I would say, Fox problems were easier to get rid off than Disney problems are going to be.

  15. #180
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Simon Kinberg last great work was Fantastic 4 and Apocalypse.
    To be fair, he also did Days of Future Past.

    He had messed up Dark Phoenix once.
    I dunno why people donít blame the studio for that.

    The writers had to fight Fox's executives to retain the Phoenix plot, as the studio only wanted the cure story as it provided a reason for Magneto's conflict with the X-Men. Still the disputes made them not add much for Jean Grey to do in most of the film's second half, as the executives considered the tone of the Phoenix story too dark for a mainstream summer movie, and that its appeal would be limited to hardcore fans rather than a general audience.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:..._Stand#Writing

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