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  1. #181
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Everything else would never have been its own thing as long as the Apocalypse reboot had strong ties to the original trilogy.
    Yeah, the two iterations were tied together. We've known this for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Kingberg actually wanted Hugh Jackman in Dark Phoenix.
    Who wouldn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    When and if Tobey Maguire ever makes a cameo in the MCU, it would be as a respect to his Spiderman series not as a desperation to keep a franchise alive.
    A lot of assumptions there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Apocalypse was a flop
    Simon Kinberg last great work was Fantastic 4 and Apocalypse. He had messed up Dark Phoenix once.
    The movie had zero good will.
    What other movies has he directed again?
    Can we stay on the subject?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    This is not the same MCU I usually watch and do like for what it is. Just because something is immature doesnt mean I can't enjoy it.
    Let's see, since the MCU began, we've gotten sci-fi movies (Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Infinity War/Endgame), war movies (Captain America 1), political thrillers (Winter Soldier, social commentary (Black Panther), fantasy (Thor, Doctor Strange), space opera (Guardians of the Galaxy, heist (Ant-Man), Joss Whedon (Avengers), teen heroes (Spider-Man), and plans for spy movies (Black Widow) and other out of the stuff box.

    If you think that's not variety, I'll make cheese for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Why do people think a Kinberg directed and written xmen movie had a chance to be successful. Kinberg has more defenders than Zack Snyder on cbr.
    Because he'd been involved with successful movies before and the trailer looked promising. So, it didn't deliver to expectations; that's how these things work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    When was Spiderman a different creative franchise with a different creative team.
    Since always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    A studio that can't handle Spiderman properly won't handle X-Men properly.
    You seriously think that makes any sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Both Fox and Disney have different problems when it comes to X-Men. I would say, Fox problems were easier to get rid off than Disney problems are going to be.
    Course, when you remove Disney's alleged problems, you get the pre-Wonder Woman DCEU. Look, one thing we've learned again and again is that betting against Marvel Studios is a fool's errand; why suddenly the doubting Thomas over something they can do in their sleep?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  2. #182
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, the two iterations were tied together. We've known this for years.



    Who wouldn't?
    I wouldn't. The franchise should have moved on from Hugh Jackman's X-Men movies.

    A lot of assumptions there.
    None.


    Can we stay on the subject?
    Kinberg's list of achievement is part of the subject

    Let's see, since the MCU began, we've gotten sci-fi movies (Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Infinity War/Endgame), war movies (Captain America 1), political thrillers (Winter Soldier, social commentary (Black Panther), fantasy (Thor, Doctor Strange), space opera (Guardians of the Galaxy, heist (Ant-Man), Joss Whedon (Avengers), teen heroes (Spider-Man), and plans for spy movies (Black Widow) and other out of the stuff box.
    These movies would be the most immature of the genre thick box. Its not the same as saying they are bad films.
    Because he'd been involved with successful movies before and the trailer looked promising. So, it didn't deliver to expectations; that's how these things work.
    The trailer looked awful. Kinberg has been involved with more failures than successes.

    Since always.
    Since never.

    You seriously think that makes any sense?
    Spiderman should be easier to get right than X-Men. If you can't get the easy things done right. The harder things will be harder.

    Course, when you remove Disney's alleged problems, you get the pre-Wonder Woman DCEU. Look, one thing we've learned again and again is that betting against Marvel Studios is a fool's errand; why suddenly the doubting Thomas over something they can do in their sleep?
    The alleged problems of studios are easy. Fox and DCEU had the same problems, their head runners were hacks, that needed sackings. For Disney, you have to get rid of the entire structure not just sack one person

  3. #183
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I wouldn't. The franchise should have moved on from Hugh Jackman's X-Men movies.
    Funny how it was, but got interrupted by the Disney buyout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    None.
    Predicting the future is always assumption-based.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Kinberg's list of achievement is part of the subject
    Point is, on paper, his directing the movie was not an automatic death sentence. Besides, we do know know that Fox screwed the movie over in more ways then one that go beyond the missteps of the actual production team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    These movies would be the most immature of the genre thick box. Its not the same as saying they are bad films.
    Dude, you've demonstrated a pretty poor grasp of what "mature" actually means over the past several posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    The trailer looked awful. Kinberg has been involved with more failures than successes.
    Matter of opinion on the former, hardly conclusive evidence on the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Since never.
    Fact; Spider-Man has been rebooted four times, with four different people at the helm each time. That's pretty much his whole cinematic career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Spiderman should be easier to get right than X-Men. If you can't get the easy things done right. The harder things will be harder.
    That's not how filmmaking works. Besides, we don't even know who'll be assigned to the next X-Men movie, but it'll probably be a new director with new crew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    The alleged problems of studios are easy. Fox and DCEU had the same problems, their head runners were hacks, that needed sackings. For Disney, you have to get rid of the entire structure not just sack one person
    Why did rid of a successful team? Under current management, Disney has quite a few successful franchises that are still filling the coffers.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  4. #184
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Funny how it was, but got interrupted by the Disney buyout.
    .
    Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix were announced before the Disney buyout.

    Kinberg wrote and produced X-Men 3 when MCU did not exist.

    Predicting the future is always assumption-based.
    I use the present to map out a realistic future. If disney didn't buy fox, what future do you think Kinberg would still have at Fox after this latest mess up? twice with the same story. what future would be there for the actors?
    Dude, you've demonstrated a pretty poor grasp of what "mature" actually means over the past several posts.
    No.

    Fact; Spider-Man has been rebooted four times, with four different people at the helm each time. That's pretty much his whole cinematic career.
    I was talking only about the rebooted MCU Spiderman that seems caught up in the ''disney formula''.

    That's not how filmmaking works. Besides, we don't even know who'll be assigned to the next X-Men movie, but it'll probably be a new director with new crew.
    Filmmaking is not in a serious conversation in a franchise that has a formula that it stays consistently juvenile. filmmaking belongs in a conversation of uneven franchises.


    Why did rid of a successful team? Under current management, Disney has quite a few successful franchises that are still filling the coffers.
    Marvel has wrapped things up for the year. Here is the report card. Endgame does not stand out as a great time travel dystopian film in the sea of such a deflexed genre, Captain Marvel was less than the usual run in the mill marvel. Far from home looks to be another stick in the mud spiderman movie than can't escape the good cause of the original spiderman. If you replaced these marvel movies with Days of future past , Wonder Woman and Spiderman 2. The conversation would be different. Not only would we be discussing the success, we would be discussing how much MCU movies are maturing in filmmaking. You don't take that to another franchise that Logan Noir was the last original movie. it makes Disney's current management look irresponsible. Almost as irresponsible as not knowing how to handle Spiderman when they could just watch what Raimi did.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 07-10-2019 at 04:09 AM.

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post

    Marvel has wrapped things up for the year. Here is the report card. Endgame does not stand out as a great time travel dystopian film in the sea of such a deflexed genre, Captain Marvel was less than the usual run in the mill marvel. Far from home looks to be another stick in the mud spiderman movie than can't escape the good cause of the original spiderman. If you replaced these marvel movies with Days of future past , Wonder Woman and Spiderman 2. The conversation would be different. Not only would we be discussing about the success, we would be discussing about how much MCU movies are maturing in filmmaking. You don't take that to another franchise that Logan Noir was the last original movie. it makes Disney's current management look irresponsible. Almost as irresponsible as not knowing how to handle Spiderman when they could just watch what Raimi did.
    This is A OPINION this is not fact. We could have a merit base discussion with sales or awards but you and others would dismiss them. So it is just your opinion against someone else opinion who disagrees in never ending argument. You think Marvel movies are immature because of humor nobody is changing your mind. But also what is not changing is Marvel because every metric for success Marvel is doing well in it.

    I love X2, DoFP, Logan, I love Winter Soldier, Black Panther, Avengers Infinity Wars boths sides have made great movies.Your beating a dead horse that you think Marvel less mature is pointless they are not going to change. They have been maybe the most successful franchise in history. With Avengers beginning financially the most successful franchise in history. Dislike it as much as you want, It is not changing because THE AUDIENCE likes it. Your opinion doesn't represent the wider audience. Lucky for you live in an era where superhero movies have been made popular so you will get to see wider variety of things, You have Netflix Marvel which was excellent, You have DC universe shows which are interesting play to more adult audience, You have had Umbrella Academy on Netflix. You have The Boys coming on Amazon, You have bunch of Mark Millar stuff coming on Netflix. You have movies like Fast Color, Chronicle, Glass, Hellboy.etc. You have upcoming Joker movie. You aren't trapped watching Marvel movies if you want to see something "more mature" from the genre and they are so much genre stuff now that you can't keep track. I am huge nerd and a show like "The Rook" snuck up on me. Which could have never happened in the past.

    It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, Marvel is not changing what they are doing. And given how the X-men fizzled out the end. They have strong case to stick to what is working for them.

  6. #186
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    It was awkward watching Disney market dark phoenix as a finale that has been building for 20 years, after already having 2 finales and the new kids on the block cast only had one movie as supporting characters.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 07-10-2019 at 06:12 PM.

  7. #187
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    It was awkward watching Disney market dark phoenix as a finale that has been building for 20 years, after already having 2 finales and the new kids on the block cast only had one movie as supporting characters.
    Speaking of which, that was some serious misleading marketing since the movie was never made to be a finale and it hurt the film. I’ve read many reviews judge it as finale and say how it doesn’t work on that level. They seem to be unaware this was basically finished filming two summers ago.

    Oh, and having Jean being the villain as your selling point when she isn’t also backed fired.
    Last edited by The Shape; 07-10-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  8. #188
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix were announced before the Disney buyout.

    Kinberg wrote and produced X-Men 3 when MCU did not exist.
    There were also plans for a New Mutants trilogy, X-Force movies, and solo films for characters like Beast, Gambit, X-23, Kitty Pryde, and Multiple Man, all of which are done because Disney bought Fox and wants to reboot things within the MCU (as is their right). The point is, had Fox been allowed to continue, we would've moved on beyond the core series and primary characters (or at least a more diverse roster alongside the First Class iteration).


    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I use the present to map out a realistic future.
    How can we do that when we don't know all the variables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    If disney didn't buy fox, what future do you think Kinberg would still have at Fox after this latest mess up? twice with the same story. what future would be there for the actors?
    We can't know what-ifs, can we?


    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    No.
    Insert Sketical Hippo meme here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I was talking only about the rebooted MCU Spiderman that seems caught up in the ''disney formula''.
    I completely lost the subject of this part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Filmmaking is not in a serious conversation in a franchise that has a formula that it stays consistently juvenile. filmmaking belongs in a conversation of uneven franchises.
    Tell that to the Russo brothers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Marvel has wrapped things up for the year. Here is the report card. Endgame does not stand out as a great time travel dystopian film in the sea of such a deflexed genre, Captain Marvel was less than the usual run in the mill marvel. Far from home looks to be another stick in the mud spiderman movie than can't escape the good cause of the original spiderman.
    Can't speak for Spider-Man since I haven't seen it yet and trying to avoid spoilers, but the former two were box office and critical successes, so that's a passing grade no matter how you cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    If you replaced these marvel movies with Days of future past , Wonder Woman and Spiderman 2. The conversation would be different. Not only would we be discussing the success, we would be discussing how much MCU movies are maturing in filmmaking.
    Instead, we're enthusing over the characters and wondering where thing'll go next. You don't get that from poor writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    You don't take that to another franchise that Logan Noir was the last original movie.
    Logan wasn't the last original movie, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    it makes Disney's current management look irresponsible. Almost as irresponsible as not knowing how to handle Spiderman when they could just watch what Raimi did.
    They're being irresponsible by maintaining a wildly successful series? Heck, people would kill to be as "irresponsible" as the MCU people, given the track record of success they have. Also, Kevin Feige has indicated that he considers the Raimi movies gold standards in the genre. Oddly enough, MCU Spidey and Raimi Spidey seem to have a lot in common in terms of approach and being character-driven. Heck, Raimi's Spidey was in many ways the herald for the MCU-style superhero genre.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #189
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Just want to say that Jean has one of the best character arcs in the series.


  10. #190
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Just want to say that Jean has one of the best character arcs in the series.

    Her story in Dark Phoenix was pretty much the same as Apocalypse fears her powers and has trouble controlling them till the end of film where she stops the villain. The only difference she had a 5 minutes period in DP where we enjoyed using her powers after the shuttle accident so I don't see where we had a great story arc.

  11. #191
    All about DC. DCStu's Avatar
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    I liked X-Men and X2. Those are the only ones. Nothing that came after has grabbed me like those first two movies did. I didn't even bother seeing the latest Dark Phoenix film. These need to be rebooted within the MCU very soon.
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  12. #192
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    There were also plans for a New Mutants trilogy, X-Force movies, and solo films for characters like Beast, Gambit, X-23, Kitty Pryde, and Multiple Man, all of which are done because Disney bought Fox and wants to reboot things within the MCU (as is their right). The point is, had Fox been allowed to continue, we would've moved on beyond the core series and primary characters (or at least a more diverse roster alongside the First Class iteration).
    Plans mean nothing. There were plans for solo movies for years and nothing came of it. They worked on Gambit for years and it kept falling apart. Everything they did was going to depend on how other things went. The X-men movies were in trouble before Disney bought them as shown by the reshoots of both Phoenix and New Mutants, and the bad reception of Apocalypse. Even if Fox had kept going the chance of seeing Multiple Man, Kitty Pryde, or any of the other movies they had planned were pretty thin. I mean WB had plans for a Cyborg and Green Lantern Corps movie too, but they never materlized either.

    Even if Kinberg had been able to make DP two movies and done his original plan I don't think it would have mattered. His sense of what the X-Men should be and what the audience wants them to be are just to radically different at this point. Kinberg is stuck in the past.

  13. #193
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Her story in Dark Phoenix was pretty much the same as Apocalypse fears her powers and has trouble controlling them till the end of film where she stops the villain. The only difference she had a 5 minutes period in DP where we enjoyed using her powers after the shuttle accident so I don't see where we had a great story arc.
    In Apocalypse the issue with her powers was that she burned things while she was asleep.



    "You don't know what it's like to be afraid to shut your eyes"

    This wasn't really resolved at the end of the movie. All she did was unleash fiery psychic energy on Apoc. Apocalypse is where Jean's arc began and Dark Phoenix was where it ended because that is where she actually gained control.
    Last edited by The Shape; 07-12-2019 at 05:03 PM.

  14. #194
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Plans mean nothing. There were plans for solo movies for years and nothing came of it. They worked on Gambit for years and it kept falling apart. Everything they did was going to depend on how other things went. The X-men movies were in trouble before Disney bought them as shown by the reshoots of both Phoenix and New Mutants, and the bad reception of Apocalypse. Even if Fox had kept going the chance of seeing Multiple Man, Kitty Pryde, or any of the other movies they had planned were pretty thin. I mean WB had plans for a Cyborg and Green Lantern Corps movie too, but they never materlized either.


    Even if Kinberg had been able to make DP two movies and done his original plan I don't think it would have mattered. His sense of what the X-Men should be and what the audience wants them to be are just to radically different at this point. Kinberg is stuck in the past.
    The last three films had more reshoots than Dark Phoenix according to Deadline.

    A note about reshoots: They’re completely normal on a superhero film of this size, and are routinely budgeted. Just because a superhero movie undergoes reshoots doesn’t mean that it’s destined to fail (i.e. Suicide Squad went from dark to funny in tone and dazzled with $746.8M). We hear that Dark Phoenix had even less reshoots than X-Men: First Class, Days of Future Past and Apocalypse. And this is where we turn to Fox PR and marketing mismanaging the image and perception of Dark Phoenix. Word was leaked and not controlled about reshoots for Dark Phoenix and New Mutants, and when that isn’t managed, it already transmits a message to fans that something is afoul. The headlines on Star Wars: Rogue One‘s reshoots were less so than the public divorce of the studio from original Solo: A Star Wars Story directors Phil Lord and Christopher Miller, and that resulted in the former being a profitable film and the other a stinker.
    https://deadline.com/2019/06/dark-ph...hy-1202629749/

    What does the audience what them to be? I mean, the vast majority of them don't read comics.
    Last edited by The Shape; 07-12-2019 at 05:02 PM.

  15. #195
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Plans mean nothing.
    It shows what kind of future Fox wanted for the series. May not be much practical good in the here and now, but the point still stands.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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