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  1. #271
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    DF seemed to treat the Phoenix more like a mental illness than anything else... which I think sort of sucked some of the fun out of it.
    That was actually the point.


  2. #272
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    They actually filmed that but it was cut from the final product(likely to shorten the movie so it can get more showtimes). They talked about it in interviews and there is a clip in the trailers where Jean says “it feels good”.
    Again 5 minutes of it feels good isn't a good version of the Dark Phoenix storyline Kinberg stinks IMO.

  3. #273
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Again 5 minutes of it feels good isn't a good version of the Dark Phoenix storyline Kinberg stinks IMO.
    It does partly explain why Jean leashed out at people alongside the repressed rage.

  4. #274
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    That was actually the point.

    Sure, I get that. I just don't think it translated as well in the movie. Simply but I don't think the things Kinberg tried doing well ended up connecting with the audience. Granted that's a subjective opinin... but I don't feel terribly lonely in thinking it.

  5. #275
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    It was mentioned in the movie a few times. Hank and Charles both said that the energy was making her mutation stronger. Vuk later on says that the cosmic energy was attracted to Jean because is stronger than she know, strong enough to become the greatest force in the galaxy.
    True, but the former was true of the "original" Phoenix model as well and the latter would work even if Phoenix mode wasn't her on full blast. It might technically work, but it feels like two different versions of the series with the same cast.
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  6. #276
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    They actually filmed that but it was cut from the final product(likely to shorten the movie so it can get more showtimes). They talked about it in interviews and there is a clip in the trailers where Jean says “it feels good”.
    To me, that would not have fit the movie and they were right to cut it. Her enjoying the power would undercut her struggle to contain it, to little effect. In fact, the big climactic scene was when she reluctantly accepted and took control of the power, sacrificing herself in the process.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 09-23-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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  7. #277
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Sure, I get that. I just don't think it translated as well in the movie. Simply but I don't think the things Kinberg tried doing well ended up connecting with the audience. Granted that's a subjective opinin... but I don't feel terribly lonely in thinking it.
    A lot of people actually misread what is happening as the result of the cosmic force corrupting her rather than her having a psychosis. Because that is what was said in the incredibly misleading marketing.

  8. #278
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Even in the original story before the cosmic being angle was added Jean and Dark Phoenix were treated as separate beings or more like personalities with DP being seduced by the thrill of losing control. So in that respect IMO even The Last Stand got the story better than the film actually called Dark Phoenix.

  9. #279
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    I was watching Screen Junkies Best Summer Movie of 2019 and I am surprised by how ill-informed they are. They seriously believe that Fox sold the studio to Disney while Dark Phoenix was shooting and that the reshoots happened because of Captain Marvel. The latter was shot down by the filmmakers months ago.

    Oh, and I found it strange that in their Dark Phoenix Honest Trailer commentary they are complaining about the movie diving into Jean's most traumatic experience after only introducing her in Apocalypse. I mean a lot of origin stories work that way, just look at anything relating to Batman, especially Batman Begins.

  10. #280
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    I was watching Screen Junkies Best Summer Movie of 2019 and I am surprised by how ill-informed they are. They seriously believe that Fox sold the studio to Disney while Dark Phoenix was shooting and that the reshoots happened because of Captain Marvel. The latter was shot down by the filmmakers months ago.

    Oh, and I found it strange that in their Dark Phoenix Honest Trailer commentary they are complaining about the movie diving into Jean's most traumatic experience after only introducing her in Apocalypse. I mean a lot of origin stories work that way, just look at anything relating to Batman, especially Batman Begins.
    Didnt see it but if the argument was I didnt care about her past because she was a character the movies didnt make me care about then I agree. But yea usually showing that is the first thing you would do with most characters. So saying it's too soon since she was barely in Apoclypse is silly.

  11. #281
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Chris Claremont would love to see Dark phoenix get adapted as an expensive mini part game of thrones tale. Need to make a thread about this on x books. what is it with this people this week? first George Lucas and now Chris Claremont. Is Disney not paying them enough royalties?

    http://epicstream.com/news/NicoParun...le-Mini-Series

    Once again, a reminder X-Men is beyond Kinberg's vision and their future does not look so bright either, you really do need a game of thrones type of story telling to get xmen adaptions correctly.

    I was a person who gave X2 a 70% pass rate trying to adapt god loves, man kills. Claremont is quite lukewarm on that. his pass rate is like 30% but like I said too, the movie didn't even cover everything in the comics as Claremont pointed out,

    It may be for the best if X-Men ditches movies and gets a TV show under a different Disney company like Miramax and be more like game of thrones, something I already brought up on the deadpool r rated thread.BINGO. Great to see Claremont even agrees with me when it concerns X-Men stories and mature content.

    The lore is too big, movies are never going to be satisfying, I will prefer a game of thrones sort of story after a mix bag of movies.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 09-24-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  12. #282
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    That was actually the point.
    Season 1 of Legion was all about tackling mental illness, even the visual style was part of the story. for every great xmen story there is a strong message you have to notice beyond the good guys fighting some evil. Legion was well received for tackling the subject of mental illness.



    Why does Phoenix fail to be that? Because Noah Hawley is supremely talented. Kinberg is not.

    If anyone has time please watch the video, how this tv shows uses visual to address the themes of the show, we don't even get this type of sophisticated story telling in any big budget comic movie of experienced directors, talkless of Kinberg that had no experience. No way he can write and create mental illness themes.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 09-24-2019 at 11:20 PM.

  13. #283
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Didnt see it but if the argument was I didnt care about her past because she was a character the movies didnt make me care about then I agree. But yea usually showing that is the first thing you would do with most characters. So saying it's too soon since she was barely in Apoclypse is silly.
    I watched it again, I might have misread what one of them was saying. He said she was barely Apocalypse(actually she had as much screen time as Mystique and Magneto) and now we are jumping into the most dramatic experience in her life. Now might be referring to Jean becoming a villain.

    However, as established on this very page Jean’s not evil in the movie but suffering from a psychosis like well...Legion did with David at the start of the series. So it’s still kind of silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Why does Phoenix fail to be that? Because Noah Hawley is supremely talented. Kinberg is not.

    If anyone has time please watch the video, how this tv shows uses visual to address the themes of the show, we don't even get this type of sophisticated story telling in any big budget comic movie of experienced directors, talkless of Kinberg that had no experience. No way he can write and create mental illness themes.
    I wouldn’t say Dark Phoenix failed to be that. As the video says the theme got noticed by people familiar with mental health issues. Here is an article on the subject.

    Dark Phoenix might seem like a story about a mutant with super human powers but upon closer inspection, it illustrates the neglected condition close up and the way women may experience it differently than men.

    Although women are at greater risk for negative consequences following traumatic events, many often hesitate to seek mental health treatment. Survivors often wait years to receive help, while others never receive treatment at all. Part of that could be because they don’t understand or recognize their PTSD symptoms or know what to do about them. “Its really important to cover PTSD in women. It’s a neglected topic,” Karestan Koenen, Ph.D., professor of psychiatric epidemiology at Harvard, urges. The new and final film in the X-Men franchise is one of the few movies to illustrate what PTSD is like for a woman. Inadvertent or not, Dark Phoenix not only has the power to educate but also to help other female sufferers heal.

    Trauma and Jean Grey

    PTSD is defined by the Mayo Clinic as a “mental health condition that’s triggered by a terrifying event—either experiencing it or witnessing it.”

    Jean Grey, the film’s main character, experiences a few of these firsthand.

    Dark Phoenix begins with the car accident that kills Grey’s mother. Grey, still a child, is in the car and believes her powers were the cause of the accident. Professor X swoops in and raises the now orphan as a mutant alongside characters like Mystique (played by Jennifer Lawrence) and Beast (Nicholas Hoult). He uses his powers to push the traumatic car crash out of Grey’s mind, essentially building up mental barriers so she never has to deal with it, which only sets her up for future failure.

    The next scene introduces us to adult Grey, played by Sophie Turner. She is on a mission to space with other X-Men to save some astronauts when she comes in contact with a force almost too strong for her. The force enters her body and magnifies her power and strength to a point far beyond her control, turning her into the Dark Phoenix. Her powers are so strong and uncontrollable, they break down the walls Professor X built in her mind, and the memories and pain from her life experiences start coming back to her.

    This is when we begin to see signs of PTSD.

    Andrea Letamendi, associate director of mental health training, intervention and response for the Office of Residential Life at UCLA, sees the car crash, the cosmic event and Professor X’s manipulation of her mind as trauma. “Broadly defined, a trauma is any experience that causes intense fear, helplessness, loss of control, or threat of annihilation—a circumstance in which someone’s personhood is threatened,” says Dr. Letamendi, who often examines psychological themes found in comic books, science fiction, and other pop culture narratives.

    PTSD and the Dark Phoenix
    Professor X inadvertently sets Grey up for PTSD by building walls in her mind. When it comes to a traumatic experience, “if we don’t face what happened, and we avoid it, over time it’s the avoidance that leads to PTSD,” Dr. Koenen says. “Rather than processing the trauma at that time–or getting help processing the trauma–Professor X actually did the opposite by setting up walls/repressing/blocking the trauma from her memory,” she explains. “As a result, she was never able to integrate that experience into her life and then, when it comes up later, it explodes.” She compares it to when children experience trauma and their families–usually with good intentions–decide the best way to cope is to pretend it didn’t happen.

    After she becomes the Dark Phoenix, she starts to exhibit common symptoms that many woman struggle with every day. “She has the raw/unfiltered emotions so common in PTSD,” says Dr. Koenen. She starts having flashbacks to the car accident and the cosmic event; she also starts feeling out of control of her body. “I’m scared. And when I lose control, bad things happen to the people I love,” she says at one point. Dr. Letamendi says the “significant changes in her mood-state and her sense of herself and the world” could be signs of PTSD. Dr. Koenen identifies her outbursts and rage as symptoms of PTSD. Dr. Letamendi also points to symptoms like “hyper arousal and reactivity, inability to sleep, feeling almost hyper vigilant, on edge, just really kind of physically self aware.” Both doctors agree that the shame and self-blame she experiences also align with PTSD.

    A big one that is specific to women is feeling isolated. “You feel like you don’t belong here. You don’t. They can’t begin to comprehend what you are,” Vuk, the villain who is after the Dark Phoenix powers, says to her. “I think what we are seeing with her in terms of genders is that sense of avoidance of closeness. We do see that more with women who have PTSD,” Dr. Letamendi points out. This is illustrated when Grey flees to deal with these powers alone, leaving her loved ones behind even though they want to help her.
    https://parade.com/890941/maggie_par...-that-matters/
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-25-2019 at 04:25 AM.

  14. #284
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    A lot of people actually misread what is happening as the result of the cosmic force corrupting her rather than her having a psychosis. Because that is what was said in the incredibly misleading marketing.
    The movie itself should be able to tell the story regardless of the marketing. If it can't, then the movie didn't do a very good job. If you need behind the scenes videos on youtube filling in the blanks, then you probably did something wrong.

  15. #285
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The movie itself should be able to tell the story regardless of the marketing. If it can't, then the movie didn't do a very good job. If you need behind the scenes videos on youtube filling in the blanks, then you probably did something wrong.
    There were no blanks. Its explicitly stated in the movie a few times that Jean was suffering from a psychosis as the result of her repressed child trauma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Xavier
    The mind of a psychic is a fragile thing. It takes only the slightest tap to take it in the wrong direction. I had to make adjustments to her mind when she was young. Scaffolding...walls around...to keep out all the trauma.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Xavier
    She's all... desire. All rage, all pain. And it's all coming out at once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hank McCoy
    Fair? Oh, now, talk about fair. You messed with the mind of an eight-year-old girl. You pushed out all that pain and anger. Where do you think it's gonna go?
    Here is a link to the script: https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...n-dark-phoenix

    Preconceived notions can effect how people seen things. Its called selective perception. Here is a famous example:



    So yeah, marketing of a movie can effect how you perceive it.
    Last edited by The Shape; 09-25-2019 at 08:41 AM.

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