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  1. #46
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    Well, contrary to the contamined popular belief, the X-Men movies had always been deeply centered on a group of characters, not a sole character. Fact is, even if THAT specific group which the movies were centered on WASN'T the "classic" X-Men roster you wanted, well, you cannot truly deny the fact that the X-Men movies were focused on the story-arc and the character-arc of a chosen GROUP of characters.

    X-Men/X2/The Last Stand were about:

    Professor X
    Magneto
    Wolverine
    Jean Grey
    Rogue (at least in X1)

    First Class/Days of Future Past/Apocalypse/Dark Phoenix were about:

    Professor X
    Magneto
    Mystique
    Beast
    Jean Grey (in the last two)


    Like it or not, you cannot say these movies were NOT character-driven, despite being not focused on the other "X-Men" or the "X-Men" as a battlefield team.

  2. #47
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    In a universe with dozens of bankable characters you managed to list 7 characters. And two of them are debatable.

    I mean, you're going out of your way to defend the movies and you can't even reasonably put together a list. As they say - 'Nuff Said.

  3. #48
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    My opinion, since I'm seeing the X-Men/ MCU comparison, is X-Men holds up better as superhero team film than The Avengers.

    X-Men: The Tragedy of Magneto's backstory, the horror of Rogue discovering her powers, Wolverine shown to be a badass cage fighting, the scene where he has the standoff (claws vs. rifle) Rogue and Logans stories intersect and has prominence with Magneto's plans, which Xavier is determined to stop. Xavier is taken down, Senator Kelley is introduced as part of the moral conflict of the film, making each teams actions less cut and dried. Several brotherhood/ X-Men showdowns (in the snowy woods, train station, statue of liberty gift shop. Utilizing Mystiques ability to add an extra bit of danger, as there's initially uncertainty on who to blast and whether it's actually Logan. Logan calling out Magneto's hypocrisy on victimizing Rogue for mutantkind. Rogue settles into her new home, the love triangle is set up, as is Logans journey and the Xavier/ Magneto dynamic. Great start to the franchise.

    Then we've got the Avengers: Ruffalo doing his worst scary guy impression with Black Widow, the cheesy reverse interrogation gimmick that was done better on Burn Notice, fanboy standin Coulson, heretofore an annoying add on character in Ironman, now promoted to Cap fanboy (and your supposed to care, because he wanted Cap to sign those trading cards. And Nick Fury smears his blood on them, the implication being the team are such self obsessed narcissists they'd ignore the end of the world over a mild argument unless Fury defiled poor Coulsons corpse. Got the shadowy organization that are poorly rendered cliches and almost any spy film would give you a better iteration of that trope. Hawkeye isn't so much a character or in costume as a mind controlled pawn for Widow to later bounce some very stiff dialog about being unmade off of. Loki violates Godwins law not even halfway through the film, Thors cheesy "bring the hammer doooown!" line, the obvious fellowship of the rings rip with the sceptre, the incredibly lame misogyny made Loki dumb with Black Widow even though that doesn't fit his character so far and he's been 10 steps ahead until now, the red in my ledger line (maximum mold on that cheesy line), alien army of CGI throwup, drawn out, bland alien sea (air) creatutes tagteam tournament with droning score, ridiculously uneven power set (Thor, Hulk, Ironman, then human Widow and Hawkeye and just above human Cap) punctuate the too long final fight with some meh humor that undercuts the end of the world stakes that should be felt, aliens all deactivate conveniently because apparently they're cyborgs or robots. Tired Schwarma joke.
    Last edited by Conch22; 06-19-2019 at 07:25 PM.

  4. #49
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    My opinion, since I'm seeing the X-Men/ MCU comparison, is X-Men holds up better as superhero team film than The Avengers.

    X-Men: The Tragedy of Magneto's backstory, the horror of Rogue discovering her powers, Wolverine shown to be a badass cage fighting, the scene where he has the standoff (claws vs. rifle) Rogue and Logans stories intersect and has prominence with Magneto's plans, which Xavier is determined to stop. Xavier is taken down, Senator Kelley is introduced as part of the moral conflict of the film, making each teams actions less cut and dried. Several brotherhood/ X-Men showdowns (in the snowy woods, train station, statue of liberty gift shop. Utilizing Mystiques ability to add an extra bit of danger, as there's initially uncertainty on who to blast and whether it's actually Logan. Logan calling out Magneto's hypocrisy on victimizing Rogue for mutantkind. Rogue settles into her new home, the love triangle is set up, as is Logans journey and the Xavier/ Magneto dynamic. Great start to the franchise.

    Then we've got the Avengers: Ruffalo doing his worst scary guy impression with Black Widow, the cheesy reverse interrogation gimmick that was done better on Burn Notice, fanboy standin Coulson, heretofore an annoying add on character in Ironman, now promoted to Cap fanboy (and your supposed to care, because he wanted Cap to sign those trading cards. And Nick Fury smears his blood on them, the implication being the team are such self obsessed narcissists they'd ignore the end of the world over a mild argument unless Fury defiled poor Coulsons corpse. Got the shadowy organization that are poorly rendered cliches and almost any spy film would give you a better iteration of that trope. Hawkeye isn't so much a character or in costume as a mind controlled pawn for Widow to later bounce some very stiff dialog about being unmade off of. Loki violates Godwins law not even halfway through the film, Thors cheesy "bring the hammer doooown!" line, the obvious fellowship of the rings rip with the sceptre, the incredibly lame misogyny made Loki dumb with Black Widow even though that doesn't fit his character so far and he's been 10 steps ahead until now, the red in my ledger line (maximum mold on that cheesy line), alien army of CGI throwup, drawn out, bland alien sea (air) creatutes tagteam tournament with droning score, ridiculously uneven power set (Thor, Hulk, Ironman, then human Widow and Hawkeye and just above human Cap) punctuate the too long final fight with some meh humor that undercuts the end of the world stakes that should be felt, aliens all deactivate conveniently because apparently they're cyborgs or robots. Tired Schwarma joke.
    Wow that's not Biased at all.

    I'm not responding to all of that but one of your first points is Badass Cage fight with Wolverine. Lol that's scene doesnt hold up at all. Lol the guy punches and hit Logan a bunch like it's nothing. Then Logan becomes mad and every hit starts making metal noises. Apparently if you punch Wolverines head it doesnt hurt or make metal noises. But if he hits your with that same head its awhole different ball game. That scene is laughable. Jackmans Wolverine became better with time.

    I'm not saying I disagree with all your points but most of them.

  5. #50
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    Real badasses knock punching bags off the chain in empty rooms, hashtag it! Didn't expect to change your mind, your accusations of bias pretty much mirror my own views when I see people ragging on the X-Men films like they're the worst comic films ever when, pre-Ironman 1, a dozen years ago, they were considered among the best. There's a handful of MCU films I'd consider truly worthwhile, many fall into an increasingly stale cookie cutter mold. The fan snobbery over the trendy current crop resulting in tearing down what's come before because it's not THAT, not the MCU, is something that induces rather a lot of bile for myself. Particularly when the prize pig in this case changes as much as any other studio and rellies heavily on a soulless formula with timed humor and classic music mixed with some form of gimmick, yet gets praised as having so much more depth and accuracy. Its really annoying.
    The goal post shifting also gets annoying. Too much Wolverine! Okay, we're focusing on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique. Too much of them. Okay, now it's Jean. Too much Jean. Its like it doesn't matter who has the focus, it becomes too much quicker and quicker (but never too much Ironman in the MCU).
    This was my get off my lawn speech, hope you enjoyed it and people don't get overly bent out of shape over my venting.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    The goal post shifting also gets annoying. Too much Wolverine! Okay, we're focusing on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique. Too much of them. Okay, now it's Jean. Too much Jean. Its like it doesn't matter who has the focus, it becomes too much quicker and quicker (but never too much Ironman in the MCU)..
    I don't see anyone complaining about too much Jean, that's a strawman. People do complain about too much focus on Xavier, Magneto, Mystique, and Wolverine. That's true.

    It's because the X-men world is full of rich, diverse, depthy characters that were given next to nothing for character arcs. So it's not just who they chose to focus on, it's the cardboard cut-outs that everyone else became in service to those characters. As I said in the other thread, Nebula was given more depth and a richer arc than every X-character outside those four. Nebula! If only the XCU had managed just some of that with characters like Storm or Cyclops or Gambit or Colossus or....you get the point.

  7. #52
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    Real badasses knock punching bags off the chain in empty rooms, hashtag it! Didn't expect to change your mind, your accusations of bias pretty much mirror my own views when I see people ragging on the X-Men films like they're the worst comic films ever when, pre-Ironman 1, a dozen years ago, they were considered among the best. There's a handful of MCU films I'd consider truly worthwhile, many fall into an increasingly stale cookie cutter mold. The fan snobbery over the trendy current crop resulting in tearing down what's come before because it's not THAT, not the MCU, is something that induces rather a lot of bile for myself. Particularly when the prize pig in this case changes as much as any other studio and rellies heavily on a soulless formula with timed humor and classic music mixed with some form of gimmick, yet gets praised as having so much more depth and accuracy. Its really annoying.
    The goal post shifting also gets annoying. Too much Wolverine! Okay, we're focusing on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique. Too much of them. Okay, now it's Jean. Too much Jean. Its like it doesn't matter who has the focus, it becomes too much quicker and quicker (but never too much Ironman in the MCU).
    This was my get off my lawn speech, hope you enjoyed it and people don't get overly bent out of shape over my venting.
    Lol too much to adress there but as far as character focus. We have gotten 20years of Xmen movie and way too many character have gotten the shaft. I never wanted less Xavier or Magneto. But it would be nice if someone other then like 5 key characters have actual arcs and depth. Cyclops doesnt need to be the star to be a real character people care about. You can shit on the MCU all u want but they give the side characters arcs and something to do. Not all of them that's impossible but alot of them. You can probaly pick 2-3 MCU movies and point to more side characters with actual arcs then 20years of Xmen movies. First class was a nice try imo because atleast they tried to do something different. But then Vaughn was out and the next 3 movies all looked the same. But atleast DOFP was a good movie and the only Xmen movie that felt like a cant miss event. I mean they are basically saving the world every big Xmen movie and yet the movies feel so small. Small is fine if your a great comedy or an amazing drama like Logan.

    If I'm being honest I dont think the XCU is hated at all. Just alot of people see all the missed opportunities. Logan is one of my favorite movies period. But these movies had a mess of a continuity and never built upon the world. The end result was like a 50/50 batch of good to bad movies that kept hurting themselves by trying to keep them all connected.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    I don't think I'll ever see anyone beyond a Clint Eastwood-esque character as a definitive model for Wolverine, because I think Hugh Jackman captured that sort of character very well, if that makes any sense. I don't know, I think that any actor that can give off this aura that makes you think they can get wild, yet be calculating about it at the same time are the sort of actors that should definitely be considered for the part of Wolverine.


  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    So let me praise Fox X-men movies. There was a light at the end of the tunnel when DOFP reset the timeline and it look like Fox got it. By getting it they realize the X-men is not MCU or other superheroes movies If we truly embrace that we are telling mature stories and different stories we can be great. Deadpool showed that you can tell a raunchy violent /funny comedy and it be a rated R superhero movie . And Logan showed they could tell this mature superhero modern day rated R western. Then you heard rumors of they are going to be Horror New Mutants movies and they are working on Kitty Pryde movie where she is in mansion alone being hunted by a N'Gari Demon. And at that point the thought cross through my mind that we could be missing out something great if marvel got back X-men franchise. Fox figured out their niche being something completely different from the MCU and other superhero movies.

    But they also made X-men apocalypse and complete missed the lesson they learned from DoFP. X-men apocalypse was once again Fox studio meddling seeing other studio make billions of dollars on summer blockbuster style movies and going we need to make one of those at this point it is proven Fox sucks at that style of movie X3 was bad, X-men Wolverine Origins was bad, The Wolverine was bad, X-men apocalypse was bad. Note the context I am saying they are bad summer blockbuster style movies not necessary bad movies and those movies where clear trying to be big spectacle movies. MCU has proven to be 1,000 better at making that style of movie so it is easy to feel comfortable with transition to Disney. If Fox attempted a serious somber apocalypse movie that felt like the end of world disaster movie closer to tone of Logan or DoFP I might feel differently today about the X-men returning to marvel. But they made easy by following up greatness with sheer bad movies.

    The big problem for XCU there was never a good overall plan after X-men Origins Wolverine failed but which would have been followed by X-men Origins Magneto and maybe X-men Origins Gambit. Fox needed a universal tone across movies and their version of Kevin Fegie to guide their comic book franchises. When the very next movie doesn't explain why previous movie had Phoenix in it or you don't realize that your 70s,80s,90s theme won't work because your actors are too young. There is clear long term planning issues and someone good in charge would have help that out. Anyways back to praise them when they were on Logan, Deadpool, DoFP, or X-2 they did X-men franchise justice. I understand why people are going to miss that but on to MCU.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 06-20-2019 at 12:17 AM.

  10. #55
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    I actually dont hate the Wolverine. I hate the climax but take out the giant Mech I really liked that movie. Logan I think could also been bumped up to Oscar material if they woulda taken out Young CGI wolverine. The movie was so real and grounded. So having a younger CGI Hugh Jackman I think hurt the movie though the concept behind him facing off against what he fears most was brilliant. But feel like Sabertooth coulda embodied the idea of that feral monster Logan was afraid of. That said Logan and Endgame are currently my favorite CBMs. Though I feel like when the emotional impact of Endgame fades with time it gonna drop down a couple spots on my personal list. Logan is also Timeless imo. I dont feel like the old Xmen trilogy aged well at all for me atleast, milage will vary. But Logan is gonna be great 100years from now I feel like.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Well, contrary to the contamined popular belief, the X-Men movies had always been deeply centered on a group of characters, not a sole character. Fact is, even if THAT specific group which the movies were centered on WASN'T the "classic" X-Men roster you wanted, well, you cannot truly deny the fact that the X-Men movies were focused on the story-arc and the character-arc of a chosen GROUP of characters.

    X-Men/X2/The Last Stand were about:

    Professor X
    Magneto
    Wolverine
    Jean Grey
    Rogue (at least in X1)

    First Class/Days of Future Past/Apocalypse/Dark Phoenix were about:

    Professor X
    Magneto
    Mystique
    Beast
    Jean Grey (in the last two)


    Like it or not, you cannot say these movies were NOT character-driven, despite being not focused on the other "X-Men" or the "X-Men" as a battlefield team.
    I really don't think you got the jist of the post there, specifically when I outright mentioned how climaxes were handled in these movies. The first two acts are team-based, the third act must almost always revolve around one hero, at least in the X-Films. You've a knee-jerk reaction that causes you to simply not read posts, but I'll indulge you anyway.

    In the first X-Men movie, the climax revolved around Wolverine with Rogue as a hostage -- no agency on her part in Act 3, whereas one of the heroes with the most forceful personality in the comics is reduced to a damsel in distress. The final battle was Wolverine vs. Mystique and Sabretooth when the three most powerful X-Men were nearly defeated single-handedly by Toad (TOAD.) The entire final plan was how Storm, Jean, and Cyclops would support Wolverine.

    X2 again had large focus on Wolverine so much so that Cyclops and Xavier had to be eliminated early on just to make it happen, with the plot revolving around him. And even if we count the flooding of Alkali valley, Jean outright prevents any other X-Men from helping her, so again, that's removing the team aspect.

    X3 infamously had Wolverine resisting the Phoenix Force all by himself. Make the argument that Jean restrained herself just enough if you'd like; but she only exerts some modicum of control once he's within stabbing range.

    I had already mentioned First Class and DOFP and how they're exceptions to the rule BUT THE FACT that you mentioned them anyway proves further how little you actually read my post.

    Now, back to Apocalypse. Despite assists from Storm, Magneto, and Cyclops, Jean proves to be more powerful than all three of them combined and eliminates Apocalypse by herself. The other three mutants are the equivalent of water pistols shooting at the same inferno as a fire hose. And this is despite the lack of narrative build up or foreshadowing to Jean's power -- she is essentially a deus ex machina when the bulk of the attention was on Xavier and Magneto.

    And now we're at Dark Phoenix. For any conceivable threat, the movie resorts to the age old comic book trope of having the villain gain similar powers to the central hero (Stane, Abomination, Venom, Yellowjacket, etc). But then by definition that trope is reliant on a central hero to copy. The climax isn't the X-Men vs. Vuk, it's the X-Men circling Jean and Vuk and not participating at all while Jean and Vuk have their final showdown. She even kills the other D'Bari as a warm-up, when the X-Men had been fending them off just fine a few minutes prior. One could argue that the X-Men didn't want to interfere because of power or Jean's personal fight (again, centrality), but the X-Men never let a villain's unstoppability prevent them from trying; doing so makes their inaction *very much* against character.

    So yeah, two movies where the team actually solves the problem as a team are outnumbered by the movies where a central, lone X-Man must initiate the critical act. That defeats the entire movie's build-up of a team picture, and the franchise did it repeatedly. The X-Men movies could be about any number of heroes, and they typically have many scenes devoted to that number; but when the action hits its climax at the the most critical time, all those scenes are rendered inert because then the climax isn't dependent on that number of heroes, it's dependent on one. Beast confronting Charles in the kitchen is powerful stuff -- too bad Beast therefore was reduced to an open mouth sloth in the Jean vs. Vuk fight, for instance. Cyclops had several scenes with Jean that eventually made him more forceful, but he couldn't be bothered to try to shoot Vuk off her -- doesn't matter if it would work or not in the climax because that trick worked mid-movie -- it's more important that he's grown to the point that he MUST try, but the climax refuses to acknowledge that because, like most other X-movies, there can only be one central X-Man at the climax.
    Last edited by Cyke; 06-20-2019 at 01:04 AM.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    I actually dont hate the Wolverine. I hate the climax but take out the giant Mech I really liked that movie. Logan I think could also been bumped up to Oscar material if they woulda taken out Young CGI wolverine. The movie was so real and grounded. So having a younger CGI Hugh Jackman I think hurt the movie though the concept behind him facing off against what he fears most was brilliant. But feel like Sabertooth coulda embodied the idea of that feral monster Logan was afraid of. That said Logan and Endgame are currently my favorite CBMs. Though I feel like when the emotional impact of Endgame fades with time it gonna drop down a couple spots on my personal list. Logan is also Timeless imo. I dont feel like the old Xmen trilogy aged well at all for me atleast, milage will vary. But Logan is gonna be great 100years from now I feel like.
    X1 and Dark Phoenix are similar caliber of movies. If X1 wasn't the first X-men movie people would tear it apart.It is just a really average forgettable movie.
    X3-Nothing more needs to be said about that movie
    X2 is best of the original set,It mostly holds up.

    The Wolverine was sabotaged by Fox,It is example of how a bad 3 act can sataboge a whole movie. I wish the director got to shoot alternate ending instead of the forced "hey we need a big cgi ending to compete at box office" which came from the studio. Sadly the ending is so bad ,It ruined what was pretty good Wolverine movie.It is right there with last fantastic four ,of movies you can just shut down at certain time and go that was a great idea for movie I see why it got made. But if you turn it back on it goes so down hill it makes you forget whatever good that came before and makes it a bad movie.

    Sidenote Endgame is going to hold up for a different reason. You will not just watch endgame,you will a series of movies collectively leading up to endgame.Endgame by itself is okay but you watch Iron Man 1,Avengers 1, Captain America 2 & 3,Avengers 2, Thor 3, Black Panther,GoG 1&2, Avengers Infinity War then Endgame. It is going to still work. Endgame works because it is victory lap.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 06-20-2019 at 01:03 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    So let me praise Fox X-men movies.
    That didn't sound like praise at all!

  14. #59
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    ...superhero team film...
    I don't think you understand that word properly.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    Real badasses knock punching bags off the chain in empty rooms, hashtag it! Didn't expect to change your mind, your accusations of bias pretty much mirror my own views when I see people ragging on the X-Men films like they're the worst comic films ever when, pre-Ironman 1, a dozen years ago, they were considered among the best. There's a handful of MCU films I'd consider truly worthwhile, many fall into an increasingly stale cookie cutter mold. The fan snobbery over the trendy current crop resulting in tearing down what's come before because it's not THAT, not the MCU, is something that induces rather a lot of bile for myself. Particularly when the prize pig in this case changes as much as any other studio and rellies heavily on a soulless formula with timed humor and classic music mixed with some form of gimmick, yet gets praised as having so much more depth and accuracy. Its really annoying.
    The goal post shifting also gets annoying. Too much Wolverine! Okay, we're focusing on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique. Too much of them. Okay, now it's Jean. Too much Jean. Its like it doesn't matter who has the focus, it becomes too much quicker and quicker (but never too much Ironman in the MCU).
    This was my get off my lawn speech, hope you enjoyed it and people don't get overly bent out of shape over my venting.
    Bingo.

    MCU fanboys and Anti-FOX guys cannot alter reality. Leave the revisionism out of the door.

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