When Green Lanter became a villain

[HAN9000]

The same thing can be said for Hal Jordan. And the sales numbers from Mosaic seemed to be fine. There was no excuses, other than people at DC probably wasn’t confidence enough that sales were going to be an issue with a black lead.



What you’re saying here is very subjective. It doesn’t really matter whether you think black DC characters aren’t as interesting to you. You certainly don’t speak for everyone. What you said there does not really excuse on why people over in DC Comics shouldn’t push these black characters even more and give them chances. If you think that’s why DC doesn’t do anything with black characters, then you’re pretty much proving my point.



Of those characters you mentioned, Green Lanterns are far more interchangeable than those Marvel characters. It’s not like Luke Cage, Atlas, and Victor Alvarez still share the same alias/identity. There’s an unfortunate competition where John always had issues competing with equality with characters like Hal, Guy, and Kyle, since he had issues with writers preferring to write those characters in more important roles than John around the Geoff Johns era. I honestly don’t really understand why you never acknowledge that as a problem here.



Did Geoff Johns write a Mr Terrific solo? Am I missing something? I doubt Geoff Johns had high control over at Marvel the way he does at DC. Geoff Johns has written an JLU episode that focus on John and Shayera. But the way he treated John as a character was night and day in the comics. He was just one of the major problems at DC.



No he hasn’t. No. He written Cyborg to have nothing to do when he’s in the Watchtower. Thanks to him, other writers carried the trend on what happened in the Justice League book and use him as just a transportation, since he had access to the mother box. Quite pathetic. And then you have complaints where he’s being compared to other other white males, because he’s mutilated.



I don’t think you really get it. When I say racially biased, I mean on more cases, a writer will easier identify themselves with that character. It’s just like how many black readers love black characters and how white readers really like white characters, same with Asians, etc. It just puts a character like John Stewart as a disadvantage, compared to white Green Lanterns on what we’ve saw when Johns was at the helm of the GL franchise.



Simon was heavily focused during his creation when Hal Jordan was the star of the book. He, then starred in his own book and been on the Justice League. When Simon seemed to not to be interested from other writers when Robert Venditti took over, Geoff Johns pitched the idea that Simon and Jessica to be in the Green Lanterns book. That’s a real good example of how to solicit a pitch specifically for a character at DC when writers doesn’t seem to be interested in a character.



That’s your opinion. I have no problems with that.



When Rebirth started, I was the one who came up with the idea that an existing black writer to start writing John as the solution. And Priest was indeed one of my picks, before I found out he was the one who killed Kat. With that said, Priest did make a statement on where he and other writers shouldn’t be hired to write only a black character, because they’re black. But that is the way it is. On where the less diverse writers in DC, the less chances you’ll see said diverse character appearing in a solo. I agree with what Priest said and I wish it was that way. But the way things went, it seems like you have to get more diverse writers to write diverse characters specifically.



Yea, I don’t know what thread that was.



New Superman was brought up as an example to get a diverse writer to write a diverse character, since it’s harder to get a white writer to write that diverse character. It had nothing to do with your personal opinions on the character.



When you make these kind of bad decisions, fans are going to speculate things that are questionable.



Both John and Wally’s character has been somewhat altered, since they can have an interesting GL/Flash dynamic. I’ve pointed out they said John was brought there because of his personality in the comics and not just his color.



He certainly did not. And it’s plain out awful on how they treated him. At least he has a solo book coming out. Which I don’t even think that is enough to make up on how they screwed him over. But it looks like they are probably trying to pay back those mistakes they did with him.



Yea, that one character is one of the reason why I got into comic books. That character means a lot to me. And it hurts they treated him like this, despite his success in the shows.



I’m totally fine with Snyder using Sinestro. And now he’s being used in one of DC’s top sellers.



Then there’s no reason to debate then, since we will never agree with each other.

Hal and John both failed. So one was killed. The other was paralyzed. What's wrong? About Mosaic, You will have to find the thread yourself. I don't have time to serve you.

I never said anyting that I speak for everyone. That's my point. DC black characters are uncompetitive comparing with Marvel. And I don't understand why you refuse to see the reality either. All you said just proved my point: John is an uninteresting character that almost no one is willing to write. Even the ones fancy him, like Robert Venditti, whose favorite characer is John, pushed him as the corps leader, still couldn't make him interesting.

Whatever you said, I know it's hard to liberate your mind from prejudice against Geoff Johns, but the story with Metal Men in Forever Evil is the best Cyborg got in new52.

About New Superman, I'm going to ask a question, are you a minority? If you are not, please don't say it was a good example of "a diverse writer to write a diverse character". That sounds very patronizing. No, it was not. Gene Luen Yang is not a good story teller. Nor did he perform well at demonstrating Shanghai, or asian. He didn't even know the size of Chinese fried dumpling. The sales numbers were poor. It only satisfied guys like you with "we have a diverse writer to write a diverse character".

Speaking of GL/Flash dynamic, which duo is the most popular one? Which GL is considered to have the most interesting dynamic with Wally? I think everyone knows the answer. What you said, they used John because of his personality, then they altered it... Is that a logical argument?

Just like I said, you just first exposed to John as a GL when you watched a cartoon over 20 years ago and couldn't accept the contrast of animation and comics and still refuse to accept the reality.

Then I’m totally fine with how DC treats John, just like you're totally fine with how Snyder uses Sinestro.

BTW, you jsut disgusted me with your opinion that insulting a writer is totaly fine since he didn't satisfy you in comics.

[WillieMorgan]

What was your reaction to Hal Jordan becoming a villain in the 90s??

It was absolute garbage but was also a typical product of it's time. You can file it alongside the likes of 'The Death And Return Of Superman, The Clone Saga' and 'Knightfall'. The 90's has a lot to answer for.

A couple of good things did come out of it. Kyle Rayner and the Parallax concept to be precise. The rest of it though, in particular it's treatment of Hal Jordan? Pure rubbish.

[andersonh1]

What was your reaction to Hal Jordan becoming a villain in the 90s??

I was angry. It was plain as day that the story came out of left field solely to destroy Hal as a character and leave no possible way for him to ever come back. And then he showed up as the villain in Zero Hour, and I decided that if this was how DC treated their characters (killing and aging the JSA factored into this decision), I was out. I used to buy and read 15-20 DC books a month, but I dropped them all. I occasionally read Nightwing during the 90s, and Dreamwave's Transformers when they came out, and I got the Final Night issue where Hal dies stopping the Sun-eater, but that's it.

Came back with GL Rebirth, but it's never been like it was. 2-5 titles a month are enough, and it's very easy to find a reason to drop a book now, or skip a few issues. Green Lantern is the book I'll stick with unless it's just really bad, and so far only the last few months of Geoff Johns' run (where he had clearly run out of ideas) have been dropped. GL was the one book I stuck with all through the New 52 and into Rebirth and now Grant Morrison.

[Vampire Savior]

About New Superman, I'm going to ask a question, are you a minority? If you are not, please don't say it was a good example of "a diverse writer to write a diverse character". That sounds very patronizing. No, it was not. Gene Luen Yang is not a good story teller. Nor did he perform well at demonstrating Shanghai, or asian. He didn't even know the size of Chinese fried dumpling. The sales numbers were poor. It only satisfied guys like you with "we have a diverse writer to write a diverse character".

I'm going to agree with Han9000 that New Superman is garbage. I have a problem with it simply on a conceptual level. The idea that the only way for non white characters to be viable is to make them a junior version of a white hero, which instantly puts them in a position where they will ALWAYS be compared to and lesser than the white hero, is really upsetting to the point where it's almost kind of insulting.

At the same time, though, it's really hard for me to believe anyone at DC is actually good enough to come up with a completely worthwhile new character with a fascinating mythology all their own. I guess the closest you will get is Naomi, but from what I know of the character she is still not wholly independent. It's not just a matter of giving the creators enough incentive to do so, as a person who can actually make a comic, I will say that most of them simply aren't all that talented or creative, and I don't care how that makes me sound. If I can make a much better comic book than these guys (and I can), I'm going to come down on them like a ton of bricks because, as I see it, there should be no excuse for that.

[skyvolt2000]

The same thing can be said for Hal Jordan. And the sales numbers from Mosaic seemed to be fine. There was no excuses, other than people at DC probably wasn’t confidence enough that sales were going to be an issue with a black lead.

Cully Hammer said the books SOLD. It was an EDITOR who got rid of the book.
Mind you Steel had a book at that time. As would the EDITOR ruined Black Lightning series. Also Milestone was around with book outselling Animal Man & Swamp Thing.

IÂ’m citing these character to tell you, when characters share the same name, maybe the most popular one is because he/she is the most popular one, not because he/she is white?

NO. That is not always true. The ones that is perceived to be popular tend to be the ones who are SHOVED DOWN YOUR THROAT NONSTOP or the ones whose material is easliy accessible.

We have unlimited access to EVERYTHING Hal Jordan. Because there is SOMEBODY willing to write a story on him, include him in a story, throw him on a product and so on. With little to NO resistance by those who approve such crap.
Also you are not going to have an issue getting ACCESS or information about it.

If I want a Hal Jordan shirt-I can get an OFFICIAL one. I go to my library and check out his trades and KEEP them for over 6 months. I can go to my LOCAL stores and see stuff with him. I can dig in bins and get his book CHEAP. I do NOT have to commission someone to do a drawing of Hal because there are already PRINTS of him.
So it EASIER to get him "liked" by folks because there is not lack of resources to do so.

When we talk POC that is a DIFFERENT beast. There is push back NONSTOP & EXCUSES. There is also a lack of resources and promotion. In some cases folks have to FORCED to do something with POC.
I can't do the above with 100% of POC of DC.
Now the cartoon and movie versions-different story. However what good are they when it does not SHOW in the comics.
One of the MAJOR complaint is "I like (INSERT BLACK PERSON) but can't FIND anything with them in it."
Out of sight EQUALS out of mind.

New Superman was brought up as an example to get a diverse writer to write a diverse character, since it’s harder to get a white writer to write that diverse character.

Gene Luen Yang is a successful writer. Also New Superman was one of DC top sellers in trades on Amazon.

The idea that the only way for non white characters to be viable is to make them a junior version of a white hero, which instantly puts them in a position where they will ALWAYS be compared to and lesser than the white hero, is really upsetting to the point where it's almost kind of insulting.

The issue is FANS and FAKE FANS. Look at Batman & The Outsiders. Batman is barely in the book. Yet for that book to bet shelf space his name has to be on it or we will see TROLLS attack a book starring 4 POC.
So unless DC is going to take a stand and INVEST like Marvel has-nothing will change. Black Panther held a solo for 15 out of the last 21 years for a reason.

[Johnny]

NO. That is not always true. The ones that is perceived to be popular tend to be the ones who are SHOVED DOWN YOUR THROAT NONSTOP.

Hal Jordan currently appears in one monthly book where he's completely isolated from the core DCU events, would you mind telling me how is he shoved down your throat.

The issue is FANS and FAKE FANS. Look at Batman & The Outsiders. Batman is barely in the book. Yet for that book to bet shelf space his name has to be on it or we will see TROLLS attack a book starring 4 POC.

You keep repeating the same thing ad nauseam. There's no "real" fans or "fake" fans and those "trolls" you keep bringing up have no influence over the sales of a book. It's not a rocket science, if a comic starring a bunch of minority characters doesn't happen to sell, it's because people aren't interested in it.

[SiegePerilous02]

At the same time, though, it's really hard for me to believe anyone at DC is actually good enough to come up with a completely worthwhile new character with a fascinating mythology all their own. I guess the closest you will get is Naomi, but from what I know of the character she is still not wholly independent. It's not just a matter of giving the creators enough incentive to do so, as a person who can actually make a comic, I will say that most of them simply aren't all that talented or creative, and I don't care how that makes me sound. If I can make a much better comic book than these guys (and I can), I'm going to come down on them like a ton of bricks because, as I see it, there should be no excuse for that.

Some of it is down to creators probably saving their best ideas for when they work with publishers like Image.

That, and everything is brand/nostalgia driven these days, and not just in comics. We cannot get many new ideas, or at least new ideas that aren't piggy backing off of older things. I YEARN for a modern equivalent of the creative energy displayed by Lee, Kirby, Ditko and Thomas, or the various DC creators who created their biggest characters, and build a new shared superhero universe from the ground up with whole new mythologies (NOT just shallow riffs) and lots of diversity from the word "go." It's hard to do that with DC and Marvel at this point, but it's unlikely we'll see whole new properties emerge and become successful in either of them or ever see a third of their like with the same amount of creative energy.

It's really just that the biggest explosion of creativity the superhero genre saw on the comics side took place in the friggin 50s/60s. Seriously, of the major properties of the Big Two, only the X-Men and the Titans go their "essentials" after the Silver Age.

Hal Jordan currently appears in one monthly book where he's completely isolated from the core DCU events, would you mind telling me how is he shoved down your throat.

And they are stories specifically written around him and his history, so the complaints we sometimes see that such a great series "shouldn't be about Hal" are pure nonsense and not worth listening to.

[titanfan]

If the idea is to make money off your character, then you probably want him at DC or Marvel as theirs a much bigger chance that character will be in a movie or TV show than as an Indy.

However, what's more likely to get you royalty rights? Creating a new character? Or introducing Batman's 3rd cousin with a tenuous tie in to the Bat-verse so that you can piggy back off a future Batman movie?

I also feel like that's why DC has so many side kicks/replacement/legacy characters. Easier to team up with the editor to write Flash out (even for a few years) and introduce his replacement and maybe that version gets included in a future cartoon and you get a cut of some royalties.

[EsotericFailures]

We have unlimited access to EVERYTHING Hal Jordan. Because there is SOMEBODY willing to write a story on him, include him in a story, throw him on a product and so on. With little to NO resistance by those who approve such crap.
Also you are not going to have an issue getting ACCESS or information about it.

Hal Jordan has only ever been in one live action movie, hasn't even been hinted at in the current DCEU, had his cartoon cancelled after one season despite it being well received, is currently only in one book, hasn't been a Justice League regular since 2012, currently only has one monthly book and was previously forced to share his book with 3 other Lanterns.

I get why people resent Hal as he's the reason why John/Kyle aren't the main Green Lantern but you don't have to make stuff up. In between the movie flopping and Morrison's relaunch Hal was not aggressively pushed by DC. They kicked him out of the Justice League in both comics and movies and allowed a writer people thought was "meh" at best to write him for 5 years (which is an astonishingly long run by modern day standards, with almost nothing to show for it).

[Johnny]

Nevermind.

[HAN9000]

Sorry about the digression. Back to the theme.
I started reading comics after New52. I didn't know the details of ET or how did it happen. I have to admit when I heard the story the first thing I came out was... that's really cool. It sounds just like a story with the aesthetics of Greek tragedy: a corrupted hero, inevitability of fate, the abyss also gazes into you, blahblah. The most important thing is, he came back. Yeah, after finding out the truth, I understood that I romanticized it in my imagination. But still, I think this experience makes Hal a very unique character. He truly is one of a kind. All thanks to Geoff Johns who fixed the story feeding fans **** into sugar.
And I want to say, fans shouldn't be ashamed of ET. The ones who did this should be.

[Ascended]

Totally agree, and I'm glad that they screwed up "Emerald Twilight" and "Zero Hour." If it actually had been a better story, Hal might still be Parallax today. (well, probably not with how many times the DCU has been rewritten, but we might not have gotten "Rebirth" the way we did or Hal back as a GL)

Well, personally I think *if* ET had been handled better and Hal had remained Parallax, the DCU would be a little better off for it. We have plenty of Lanterns, but Parallax *could* have been one of the all-time great villains in comics, right up there with Black Adam and Dr. Doom. I think we'd have been better off with a villain (even a relatable, sympathetic one) like Parallax than "heroic" Hal, who's role could have been filled by other Lanterns with tons of potential.

Think of it like this, it's been almost three decades right? If Hal had remained Parallax all this time and been developed and used right, and Kyle/John/Guy had all been given the same kind of respect, attention, and love.....how might the entire GL franchise have benefited all these years? Certainly there would still be people who missed Hal as a Lantern but as a great heroic foil I think he'd have proven the viability of the Parallax role and enriched the mythos.

[SJNeal]

I always wondered if the original plan would have had the same impact. (And if Kyle would STILL have been introduced)
http://glcorps.dcuwiki.net/w/GLCWP_G...erald_Twilight

I doubt it would have been as controversial, but I've always wanted to see this published, ever since stumbling upon it online years ago.

Kevin Maguire was an interesting choice for those covers. I wonder if he would have done interiors for #50, had these plans come to pass...? That certainly would have changed the feel of the story, as his style is not typically fitting of a "serious" book.

[Frontier]

Well, personally I think *if* ET had been handled better and Hal had remained Parallax, the DCU would be a little better off for it. We have plenty of Lanterns, but Parallax *could* have been one of the all-time great villains in comics, right up there with Black Adam and Dr. Doom. I think we'd have been better off with a villain (even a relatable, sympathetic one) like Parallax than "heroic" Hal, who's role could have been filled by other Lanterns with tons of potential.

Think of it like this, it's been almost three decades right? If Hal had remained Parallax all this time and been developed and used right, and Kyle/John/Guy had all been given the same kind of respect, attention, and love.....how might the entire GL franchise have benefited all these years? Certainly there would still be people who missed Hal as a Lantern but as a great heroic foil I think he'd have proven the viability of the Parallax role and enriched the mythos.

I guess the question is always if we would've had the Johns run had Rebirth not happened.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Totally agree, and I'm glad that they screwed up "Emerald Twilight" and "Zero Hour." If it actually had been a better story, Hal might still be Parallax today.

I don't think so, because - weirdly enough - Hal was only Parallax for 2 1/2 years. He adopted the costume in March 1994, the name Parallax in September 1994, and they killed him off in Final Night - September 1996. Then he was in limbo, literally, until becoming the Spectre in 1999.

By 2000 / 2001, DC knew they had a branding problem. Kyle was still in the GL series, though Hal was still identifiable as GL, appearing on merchandise (shirts, statues and toys in the WB stores), and John was soon to be on the Justice League cartoon. But DC had already committed to a Hal/Spectre series, so they decided to not change course with Hal specifically. Instead they softened on the idea of the surrounding pieces coming back - the Corps, Oa, Kilowog, etc.

I remember an interview with Didio where he mentioned taking over in 2003, hearing all this, and saying "Why isn't this already happening?" He assigned Peter Tomasi to gather pitches for a comic to be called Rebirth, and they were off and running.