When Green Lanter became a villain

[Jim Kelly]

If you think the arguments now over Wally and Barry are stormy, that's nothing compared to the deep divide between Hal and Kyle fans back in the day. This was the beginning of DC dividing up the fandoms against each other. I guess that social media wasn't as pervasive then and this bitterness didn't leak out into the broader community of fandoms--the way it has over things like Star Wars and Star Trek, these days.

And it seems like this has become the way of all things now--where fans of the same concept are constantly at war with each other. How does that work out for the company that owns the product? Does it actually help with sales? It seems like if a company is pushing away half of its fanbase, that wouldn't generate more profits.

Anyway, I always felt there should have been a better way for DC to do this kind of thing without offending half the folks that supported their comics previously. It seems like they learned all the wrong lessons from that debacle.

[DevilBat66]

HATED it with a burning passion. Quit GL and most DC books for a couple years because of it.

Eventually joined HEAT and started reading GL again around the end of Marz's run.

Decided I liked Kyle Rayner even more than I liked Hal Jordan.

Collected GL again and all was good.

Rebirth came and I HATED that. Pretty much haven't read GL since then.

[The Darknight Detective]

Badly written, out of character, editorially-mandated "event" based solely on shock value to boost sales.

All of the above. Hal deserved to be either retired or even killed off like Barry, but not this crap. Oh, for the people who think it was okay because he was "boring" to you, there are enough people out there who feel the same way about your favorite characters, too. It would be just as wrong for them to get the same treatment, IMO.

[SiegePerilous02]

I know it more by reputation than anything else. i guess you had to be there at the time to think it was a good idea, but it seems extremely dumb to me.
I've been meaning to track it down at some point. I don't want to pay money for it but if I ever see the new Kyle trades (is it in there?) in a book store or library I will flip through them. I don't know if I'm inclined to give it a fair shake though. I'm familiar enough with Marz's writing that his style + Kyle (who even Morrison, Johns and Waid can only muster a "he's ok in small doses" out of me) + a premise for Hal and the GL mythos I REALLY don't like, it probably won't do it for me.

[skyvolt2000]

All of the above. Hal deserved to be either retired or even killed off like Barry, but not this crap. Oh, for the people who think it was okay because he was "boring" to you, there are enough people out there who feel the same way about your favorite characters, too. It would be just as wrong for them to get the same treatment, IMO.

But when it has been done to the likes of Wally, Jason Rsuch, ESPECIALLY John Stewart, Cassandra Cain and others-it's supported.

And when folks take a stand in NOT supporting books-they get called out for not being "real" fans.

The thing is stuff like this does not happen when-

1) you don't BUY it. I can't cry about Inhumans vs X-Men or HIC when I BUY it. You can't take that rage out on the writer. You made the choice to buy it.
2) Push back to new original characters. Folks getting replace does not happen when new original folks are supported.

The editor at the time, Kevin Dooley, didn't do himself any favours by insulting any fans that were critical of the change and essentially telling them to go away, because they were yesterday's readers and this was for the new kids.

John Stewart got buried too as that guy was the editor of HIS book. Not to mention Green Arrow, Justice League, Guy Gardner & Black Lightning.
2 books victims of editorial interference. 2 books removing the lead. 1 removing fan favorites and killing one off.

[The Darknight Detective]

But when it has been done to the likes of Wally, Jason Rsuch, ESPECIALLY John Stewart, Cassandra Cain and others-it's supported.

Not by me. You will never, ever see me support beating up a long-time character for whatever reason. Besides, I like all the ones you mentioned and have the comics to prove it!

[Johnny]

But when it has been done to the likes of Wally, Jason Rsuch, ESPECIALLY John Stewart, Cassandra Cain and others-it's supported.

Who supported what happened to Wally in Heroes in Crisis? When John Stewart was supposedly planned to get killed, noone supported it, Fialkov even left the book in protest. Whataboutism doesn't work here because Emerald Twilight was a totally different situation.

And when folks take a stand in NOT supporting books-they get called out for not being "real" fans.

There is really no such thing as "real" fans or "fake" fans, it makes no difference to me whether some people choose to take some imaginary stand by not supporting a book that happens to feature a character I like. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

John Stewart got buried too as that guy was the editor of HIS book. Not to mention Green Arrow, Justice League, Guy Gardner & Black Lightning.

False equivalence. Hal was the only one who was tarnished beyond recognition and his fans were the ones told to shut up and leave. I don't recall DC ever telling fans of the characters you mentioned to go away.

[Adset]

All of the above. Hal deserved to be either retired or even killed off like Barry, but not this crap. Oh, for the people who think it was okay because he was "boring" to you, there are enough people out there who feel the same way about your favorite characters, too. It would be just as wrong for them to get the same treatment, IMO.

It's fiction -- what's 'right' or 'wrong'? The question asked was about our reaction to Hal going mad. My reaction was that I supported it, my reasoning being that I thought the character had grown stale and the franchise badly needed a shake up. I enjoyed the book for the remainder of the decade, ergo I look back at it as a success.

[The Darknight Detective]

It's fiction -- what's 'right' or 'wrong'?

It was wrong for long-time fans. I mean, he was a pretty active part of DC for 35 years. I had zero problem with him being replaced (either by John or Kyle, though I feel the former should have gotten it), only how it was done.

The question asked was about our reaction to Hal going mad. My reaction was that I supported it, my reasoning being that I thought the character had grown stale and the franchise badly needed a shake up. I enjoyed the book for the remainder of the decade, ergo I look back at it as a success.

Understood, but if it were a character you liked a lot, you would be against it regardless of the quality of the story (and you would be right to, also). I'm not asking you not to like the story, but just for a little understanding.

[Buried Alien]

If you've been reading DC Comics (or Marvel, for that matter) for any length of time, chances are that at least one of your favorite characters has been monkeyed with in ways that you don't agree with. Whether it's one of your favorites or one of mine, it's never fun. It makes you wonder why the Big Two feel it's such a great idea that they revisit with different characters every few years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SiegePerilous02]

But when it has been done to the likes of Wally, Jason Rsuch, ESPECIALLY John Stewart, Cassandra Cain and others-it's supported.

Care to provide some evidence of this, especially for Wally? I don't think anyone is supporting that.

From my experience, Cass's treatment was met with apathy at worst from the people who don't really care for her, not a lot of active support.

Complaining about what was done to Hal Jordan doesn't mean one condones what is being done to these other characters. And every Hal Jordan thread doesn't have to be derailed by mention of these characters all the time either.

[Jim Kelly]

Even though I eventually got to like Kyle Rayner, it's hard to see what the big difference was between him and Hal Jordan. Later on he was retconned into having a diverse family tree (the same could have been done with Jordan), but initially he was just another white, American on Earth with the ring. There was no attempt to expand the possible candidates to people of colour or other nationalities or women or aliens. I think if the new Green Lantern had been distinctly different from Hal, then it would have been an easier sell. Readers would have seen that DC was trying to be more inclusive with one of their top tier characters and they would have had some patience to see how it all worked out.

Not only were we being asked to accept Kyle was somehow different from Hal, but we also had to accept that our hero was not a hero. Actually, when I got around to reading Zero Hour, I found myself on Hal's side. A previous reboot of the timeline had produced this wonky continuity--another one might get us a better continuity. Given the rules of the DC Universe as they were set down at the time, Hal's objective seemed like the best thing to do. We were in the worst timeline and some drastic action had to be taken to restore the better timeline. I really didn't like all the other DC super-heroes getting in Hal's way--if they had just let him do what he wanted, it would have all worked out fine. They were to blame for it all going Pete Tong.

[SiegePerilous02]

Even though I eventually got to like Kyle Rayner, it's hard to see what the big difference was between him and Hal Jordan. Later on he was retconned into having a diverse family tree (the same could have been done with Jordan), but initially he was just another white, American on Earth with the ring. There was no attempt to expand the possible candidates to people of colour or other nationalities or women or aliens. I think if the new Green Lantern had been distinctly different from Hal, then it would have been an easier sell. Readers would have seen that DC was trying to be more inclusive with one of their top tier characters and they would have had some patience to see how it all worked out.

If Hal absolutely had to go, they really should have just written him out in a better way and given John the top stop.

Kyle, in his early days, just gives off the vibe of Peter Parker-lite to me. It's just a different archetype to Hal's, but one just as played out in it's own way. And like you say, he wasn't written at the time to be anything other than white, wasn't he? So he was Peter Parker as a Green Lantern, except without the innovative stuff that makes Peter (at his best) so great and without the great supporting cast and villains that go along with him. And missing all the cool GL mythos stuff that was built up around Hal that John and Guy also interacted with.

[lemonpeace]

If Hal absolutely had to go, they really should have just written him out in a better way and given John the top stop.

Kyle, in his early days, just gives off the vibe of Peter Parker-lite to me. It's just a different archetype to Hal's, but one just as played out in it's own way. And like you say, he wasn't written at the time to be anything other than white, wasn't he? So he was Peter Parker as a Green Lantern, except without the innovative stuff that makes Peter (at his best) so great and without the great supporting cast and villains that go along with him. And missing all the cool GL mythos stuff that was built up around Hal that John and Guy also interacted with.

I never understood the rationale for them wanting to get rid of Hal but not just having John and/or Guy step into the top spot; epecially since they used Emerald Twilight to kill John's book. Couldn't they have just had John (as the new Guardian in his book) rebuilding the Corps? Nothing against Kyle, he grew into a fine character, but it was a weird move.

[Sodam Yat]

My reaction to what happened with Hal Jordan was the best iteration of the character that I've ever seen. I always thought he was kind of a dull character, but I was wrong when that happened to him. He couldn't accept that he lost his hometown, so he rebuilt it with his imagination. When he stole all of the power and became Parallax, he wanted to rewrite the universe so no one can experience on what he lost. That was awesome development.