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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I never understood the rationale for them wanting to get rid of Hal but not just having John and/or Guy step into the top spot; epecially since they used Emerald Twilight to kill John's book. Couldn't they have just had John (as the new Guardian in his book) rebuilding the Corps? Nothing against Kyle, he grew into a fine character, but it was a weird move.
    It seems all three of them got screwed over for Kyle. Hal got the worst of it, but still.

    DC has definitely gone overboard with the Hal love at times since 2004, but overall GL: Rebirth was better for the cast and the mythos than what went down in the 90s, and Kyle didn't have to get screwed over (besides losing status as the lead) to do it. Which is how these things should be.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I never understood the rationale for them wanting to get rid of Hal but not just having John and/or Guy step into the top spot; epecially since they used Emerald Twilight to kill John's book. Couldn't they have just had John (as the new Guardian in his book) rebuilding the Corps? Nothing against Kyle, he grew into a fine character, but it was a weird move.
    The will NEVER use John Stewart as a leading spotlight, ever. It won't happen regardless whether it's temporary or permanent. It's the reason why you see these writers, who would rather create new lanterns than to use him. Popularity and sales doesn't matter.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I never understood the rationale for them wanting to get rid of Hal but not just having John and/or Guy step into the top spot; epecially since they used Emerald Twilight to kill John's book. Couldn't they have just had John (as the new Guardian in his book) rebuilding the Corps? Nothing against Kyle, he grew into a fine character, but it was a weird move.
    A desire to start completely anew with a new character after GL sales dropped, so new readers can start afresh. And as SeigePerilous says, Kyle is a very popular archetype. He's the white everyman, someone who got the ring not be by gifted or chosen but by accident and along the way becomes incredibly cool and awesome, as well as a total ladies man. Both Hal and Kyle are white male fantasies but Kyle is much more clearly directed at the presumed audience of fans (he's even an artist!).

    Making a black man who's already had a bit of continuity behind him and doesn't fit into the generic everyman archetype would have been a much greater risk, especially back in the 90s. So that's how we got Kyle, who's an okay character I can enjoy in some stories, but not particularly special or super interesting.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    I'm seeing commenters here that Hal Jordan has been treated the worse of all. I hate the idea that Hal Jordan was killed off, no doubt. But he's brought back. DC and Warner Bros. invested a lot into the character since then. He's a leading Green Lantern, has a movie, TV series, appeared in video games, toy merchandise, and at times have one of the most popular black characters such as John Stewart to play black best friend. If this was John, none of that would have happened. He'll still be dead. Hal Jordan is a good example of white privilege

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    A desire to start completely anew with a new character after GL sales dropped, so new readers can start afresh. And as SeigePerilous says, Kyle is a very popular archetype. He's the white everyman, someone who got the ring not be by gifted or chosen but by accident and along the way becomes incredibly cool and awesome, as well as a total ladies man. Both Hal and Kyle are white male fantasies but Kyle is much more clearly directed at the presumed audience of fans (he's even an artist!).

    Making a black man who's already had a bit of continuity behind him and doesn't fit into the generic everyman archetype would have been a much greater risk, especially back in the 90s. So that's how we got Kyle, who's an okay character I can enjoy in some stories, but not particularly special or super interesting.
    He definitely did seem aimed more at the stereotypical (mostly white male) comic book nerd who could project themselves onto him, except he looked like a male model and got to bang Donna Troy!
    Hal's archetype, that Morrison is touching on now with the whole "wandering cowboy/lawman" stuff, is older, but a bit more mature and interesting IMO. But John would have been something different from either of them, it's too bad it wasn't in the cards back then. Hal is far and away my favorite, but John and Jessica are I think the most interesting alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    I'm seeing commenters here that Hal Jordan has been treated the worse of all. I hate the idea that Hal Jordan was killed off, no doubt. But he's brought back. DC and Warner Bros. invested a lot into the character since then. He's a leading Green Lantern, has a movie, TV series, appeared in video games, toy merchandise, and at times have one of the most popular black characters such as John Stewart to play black best friend. If this was John, none of that would have happened. He'll still be dead. Hal Jordan is a good example of white privilege
    He's definitely not treated the worst now, or recently. I don't think anyone is claiming that he is.
    But that crappy movie barely counts. John or other GL fans wouldn't be eager to claim that thing either if it was about them, let's not kid ourselves.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 06-14-2019 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    He's definitely not treated the worst now, or recently. I don't think anyone is claiming that he is.
    But that crappy movie barely counts. John or other GL fans wouldn't be eager to claim that thing either if it was about them, let's not kid ourselves.
    My entire point was that he was invested a lot into. John never got any chances like that.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    My entire point was that he was invested a lot into. John never got any chances like that.
    And I wish they had invested in him in the 90s after a certain event.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well, I had only gotten in DC recently with the Death-Return of Superman, so everything I knew about Hal Jordan came from vague childhood memories of the Super Friends and Hal's battle against Mongul during Return.

    So Hal's descent into Parallax didn't impact me. But I was all about Marz's Kyle. As others have said, he was the perfect audience surrogate for the standard 90's comic fan. And I really did feel like Kyle was me, ten years in the future. We both listened to metal and rock, were both artists.....we even looked alike (though being all of 14 I didn't have the superhero body) and by the time I was 16 I had also found that I too had a way with the girls (not bragging, I just knew how to talk to them). Seriously, some people can cosplay as Superman and look the part.....I could've cosplayed as Kyle (before I grew a beard, got a bunch of tattoos, and my hair went half gray...yes I look like a cranky old viking).

    Since then, I've read a lot of older stuff with Hal in it, and of course the post-Rebirth stuff too. And although Hal's been in a lot of great stories I've really loved (both pre- and post-Kyle), I've never really seen the appeal of Hal himself. Which is odd, since I love that "maverick" archetype. Hal just....I dunno, he doesnt interest me (though his book is often worth reading, and I enjoy it). And I have had tons and tons of conversations (many of them here) trying to find what Im missing and Ive come to the conclusion that he's just not one of those characters who works for me. I can enjoy his book and like him on a team, but as a character he falls flat for me.

    But I still love, conceptually, Hal as Parallax. A hero of Hal's stature going bad? Someone who knows all the secret identities and the home addresses and the love interests and the.....everything? That kind of knowledge and access in a "villain" of Parallax's ability? That is straight up incredibly scary. Yet that threat is largely contained by Hal's own morality, which is pretty intriguing. I mean, he's not gonna incinerate Lois Lane from orbit just because he can. And I thought Hal was one of the most sympathetic and relatable villains ever. I mean, his mission never really changed, he was still trying to save lives.....he just started doing it on a much bigger scale and that terrified his friends. I think Parallax could have been (and for a moment, was) one of the most compelling characters/villains in DC. I get that his fans hated it and I don't blame them (never did, though HEAT went way overboard sometimes and made it way too personal) and I hate it when DC does this sorta crap with one of my favorites. But Marz put Hal on a really fascinating trajectory, headed towards redemption.....and I think if that narrative had been allowed to unfold (instead of Hal dying and becoming Spectre) he'd be even more amazing today.
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  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    I'm seeing commenters here that Hal Jordan has been treated the worse of all. I hate the idea that Hal Jordan was killed off, no doubt. But he's brought back. DC and Warner Bros. invested a lot into the character since then. He's a leading Green Lantern, has a movie, TV series, appeared in video games, toy merchandise, and at times have one of the most popular black characters such as John Stewart to play black best friend. If this was John, none of that would have happened. He'll still be dead. Hal Jordan is a good example of white privilege
    I mean, c'mon guys. The topic is specifically about Hal Jordan. What's with all this, "But what about John Stewart? He's treated bad, too!" It just comes off as petulant. I don't know why John Stewart's victom-hood should even enter into the equation like this. You can make a whole different thread if you want to talk about that.

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Even though I eventually got to like Kyle Rayner, it's hard to see what the big difference was between him and Hal Jordan. Later on he was retconned into having a diverse family tree (the same could have been done with Jordan), but initially he was just another white, American on Earth with the ring. There was no attempt to expand the possible candidates to people of colour or other nationalities or women or aliens. I think if the new Green Lantern had been distinctly different from Hal, then it would have been an easier sell. Readers would have seen that DC was trying to be more inclusive with one of their top tier characters and they would have had some patience to see how it all worked out.

    Not only were we being asked to accept Kyle was somehow different from Hal, but we also had to accept that our hero was not a hero. Actually, when I got around to reading Zero Hour, I found myself on Hal's side. A previous reboot of the timeline had produced this wonky continuity--another one might get us a better continuity. Given the rules of the DC Universe as they were set down at the time, Hal's objective seemed like the best thing to do. We were in the worst timeline and some drastic action had to be taken to restore the better timeline. I really didn't like all the other DC super-heroes getting in Hal's way--if they had just let him do what he wanted, it would have all worked out fine. They were to blame for it all going Pete Tong.
    One of the things DC didn't like about Hal Jordan at the time was that he was perceived as old. Editorial forced Gerard Jones to work off all the past continuity instead of giving the character a fresh start like Superman and Wonder Woman got post-Crisis, so Gerard Jones felt it would make sense to write him as world-weary and with gray temples. DC eventually felt that the character was tired and stale and that a younger, hipper every man would be better to focus on.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I mean, c'mon guys. The topic is specifically about Hal Jordan. What's with all this, "But what about John Stewart? He's treated bad, too!" It just comes off as petulant.
    It's been brought up earlier and Hal has been compared to the character earlier in this thread.

    And come to think of it, John wasn't the only character brought up, either.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    One of the things DC didn't like about Hal Jordan at the time was that he was perceived as old.
    The funny thing is they did this to themselves. Instead of becoming younger after Crisis, Hal, Ollie and Dinah were made to seem older. Even Batman appeared to have gone a few rounds, being on his third kid sidekick. But that was supposed to give these characters more heft. It worked for Mike Grell's Green Arrow. So they followed that trend, but then they got tired of it and saw no way out but to kill off Hal and Ollie--and let Dinah get younger by some mystic procedure. Never mind that these are comic book characters where the normal rules don't apply.
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  13. #43
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    hal was getting stale,even writers were writing him as corny with his boxing gloves. him being parallax was understandable , snce coast city , the city he protects and loves were destroyed while he was in space serving his masters and then being denied of using his ring to mourn all he lost. hal wasn't a true villain but not a real hero either , his pov was askew due to his grief , parallax hal was a tragic god like figure but sympathic. i didn't like it when they killed him off only to put him in the spectre.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The funny thing is they did this to themselves. Instead of becoming younger after Crisis, Hal, Ollie and Dinah were made to seem older. Even Batman appeared to have gone a few rounds, being on his third kid sidekick. But that was supposed to give these characters more heft. It worked for Mike Grell's Green Arrow. So they followed that trend, but then they got tired of it and saw no way out but to kill off Hal and Ollie--and let Dinah get younger by some mystic procedure. Never mind that these are comic book characters where the normal rules don't apply.
    Yeah, I never understood that. Why reboot the universe and yet treat some of your core characters like elder statesmen. Didn't even make sense continuity-wise when the other founding Leaguers never got old yet Hal did. That's why I always thought they purposely made him old with the idea of replacing him down the line since they saw that replacing Barry with a younger character worked so well. I'm thinking if Barry had survived CoIE he would've been part of that elder statesmen club too where he'd have retired shortly afterwards.
    Last edited by Johnny; 06-15-2019 at 04:21 AM.

  15. #45

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    Actually even though I don't mind Parallax or the idea of Hal being a villain, I think I like him either way. I'd WAY prefer him being a villain to John than being a villain to Kyle, as I feel that would have the more interesting dynamic of two men who genuinely care about each other fighting because one of them was driven mad. John would probably want Hal to get better, but Hal is goal oriented, except for moments where John was hurt like in Final Night.
    Kind of like Batman and Two Face.
    It would be way more interesting than the Hal and Kyle dynamic which was basically just "You WILL surpass him".

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