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  1. #76
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    I always wondered if the original plan would have had the same impact. (And if Kyle would STILL have been introduced)
    http://glcorps.dcuwiki.net/w/GLCWP_G...erald_Twilight
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I don't know if racial prejudice comes into play here, because Guy Gardner also wasn't used to lead the Green Lantern franchise..
    People don't want the main Green Lantern to be an angry, permanently insecure, ugly ginger bloke either. Mainstream superhero comics are wish fulfillment and old Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner and John Stewart all failed as wish fulfillment for the majority of comic book readers at the time. So the logic of trashing everything in a shocking and astonishing way and starting over with a younger, more "relatable" character made a lot of sense financially even if the story itself was editorially mandated nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    I always wondered if the original plan would have had the same impact. (And if Kyle would STILL have been introduced)
    http://glcorps.dcuwiki.net/w/GLCWP_G...erald_Twilight
    I doubt it. It sounds like a lot better of a story but making Hal a villain was perfect 90s shock value alongside the Death of Superman and Knightfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    This makes sense. They were too short sighted, they wanted to push this one character and underestimated the blow back of blowing up the entire franchise to reconfigure it around them. The thing is, I feel DC as a whole hasn't fully learn their lesson (or at least didn't learn the right lessons) in the fall out because even today I feel we still see shades of the same problems today. I don't think the Green Lantern mythos ever properly recovered from that initial fragmentation and it was the progenitor of the weird internal fandom warfare we see today.
    This is said a lot here but has there any been any evidence that a divided fanbase has hurt sales for Green Lantern comics? Having multiple main characters is what allowed for there to be multiple books a while back. Both John and Kyle fans list the Johns era as being the nadir of balancing these character successfully and insist it was all a Hal Jordan circlejerk but... that was when the franchise was at its peak sales wise. Bitter forum arguments didn't stop Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night making a ton of cash for DC. Sales declined during the Venditti era where you originally had a solo book for each of the then four main Lanterns, and then did very poorly with Hal n Pals, despite Venditti treating John, Kyle and Guy with a huge amount of respect. (and I'm not saying they declined because of this, they declined because Venditti doesn't excite most readers, I'm just saying DC did what fans on here wanted and got declining sales) Now we're back to Hal being the only one with a book and it's selling well.

  3. #78
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    People don't want the main Green Lantern to be an angry, permanently insecure, ugly ginger bloke either. Mainstream superhero comics are wish fulfillment and old Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner and John Stewart all failed as wish fulfillment for the majority of comic book readers at the time. So the logic of trashing everything in a shocking and astonishing way and starting over with a younger, more "relatable" character made a lot of sense financially even if the story itself was editorially mandated nonsense.
    There's truth in that. Kyle was created to be shameless wish fulfillment. Coincidentally, I was reading some of his comics last night, and it's pretty cheesy how Wonder Girl just happens to rather suddenly fall for him. There's nothing really wrong with that. It is what it is; wish fulfillment. Though, you can make an argument for Guy Gardner being successful on his own. He was a quintessential '90s style hero with an attitude, spewing childish insults while he fought, calling people buttheads, dweebs, and the like. If DC gave him a good push with a great artist and great stories, he probably could have worked just as well as Lobo at the time.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Though, you can make an argument for Guy Gardner being successful on his own. He was a quintessential '90s style hero with an attitude, spewing childish insults while he fought, calling people buttheads, dweebs, and the like. If DC gave him a good push with a great artist and great stories, he probably could have worked just as well as Lobo at the time.
    If he had the look he had in Charles Soules' Red Lanterns, this could have worked. Still it was probably best to just start over. He had his own series then and I don't think it sold all that well.

    I don't think there's much point in getting mad over Emerald Twilight anymore. I'm sure I'd have been if I was in comics at the time but now that the two worst elements of the story (the destruction of the Corps and Hal becoming an evil villain) are long long gone, and even Kyle Rayner feels like a has been character now. Omega Men sold terribly and he's now relegated to being a permanent supporting character. Becoming a villain now feels like just one weird chapter in Hal's life now that adds to his character in a strange way. I don't think it's ever going to be adapted into other media either.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    If he had the look he had in Charles Soules' Red Lanterns, this could have worked. Still it was probably best to just start over. He had his own series then and I don't think it sold all that well.

    I don't think there's much point in getting mad over Emerald Twilight anymore. I'm sure I'd have been if I was in comics at the time but now that the two worst elements of the story (the destruction of the Corps and Hal becoming an evil villain) are long long gone, and even Kyle Rayner feels like a has been character now. Omega Men sold terribly and he's now relegated to being a permanent supporting character. Becoming a villain now feels like just one weird chapter in Hal's life now that adds to his character in a strange way. I don't think it's ever going to be adapted into other media either.
    I don't know about that, Hal conspicuously looks old in the new Young Justice season, while every other Leaguer remains young. I would be surprised if this doesn't lead to Emerald Twilight if they plan to introduce Kyle down the line. Why else make Hal look that old.

    And don't ever think WB is above doing that. If they end up making another GL movie, I can totally see them turn Hal into a villain to prop other Lanterns. It's not like the character is in any way valuable to them.
    Last edited by Johnny; 06-17-2019 at 07:35 AM.

  6. #81
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    He had his own series then and I don't think it sold all that well.
    That's true again, though I don't think it's quite a completely fair statement to make in regards to this discussion without bringing out obvious qualifiers. First, his series was Guy Gardner, not Green Lantern. Green Lantern will typically sell better than a book like that. Second, his book got to the point where it was utterly ridiculous and he got stupid powers. I think a well done Green Lantern book starring Guy Gardner could have...and maybe even would have worked. Of course, these are all just hypotheticals, but I wouldn't write Guy Gardner off like that, especially in the 90s, when his type of characterization was very popular in comics. Whether it would have worked as well as Kyle Rayner, who can say, but getting back to the point, I don't think John wasn't used because he was black, because, again, we have the example of Guy Gardner, who I believe could have worked, also being passed over. I think John Stewart could have worked, too. There were characters on the market like Spawn, Shadowhawk, and Steel who are black, and I believe War Machine had his own series at that time, so it wasn't like black superheroes were unheard of or that nobody was doing them at the time.

    DC's decision may not have been overtly race driven, they probably just wanted something totally new. That said, I'm sure Kyle (created by a black man, no less) was intentionally made white to in hopes of appealing to the demographic.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAN9000 View Post
    No, you are the one refuse to judge characters objectively.
    Actually, it’s really you. So don’t try to redirect that back to me.

    If Hal is irrelevant they could just create a new GL to lead the franchise when Kyle's ongoing wasn't doing well in the market.
    Kyle was originally created to be an every day man, who appeared to be white. Of course they didn’t want to risk creating a black character or use the existing one.

    Well it's a shame DC never has top-tier black characters as interesting as Marvel.
    Whoever said DC never had top-tier characters as interesting as Marvel? I never had said this. So you’re just making up stuff here. DC does have top-tier characters, they just don’t capitalize on them as much as they should. This is why there’s many complaints about existing black characters not grttingthe treatment like they should. I don’t even understand why does this even have to be a debate.

    Actually, Luke Cage, Atlas(hello, white male), Victor Alvarez all shared the same name. T'Challa and Shuri were Black Panther. And everyone knows who are the most popular ones.
    I thought Luke Cage no longer doesn’t identify himself as Power Man anymore. I thought he just goes by as Luke Cage. I could be wrong there. And didn’t Luke Cage fought Atlas over that name? And T’Challa and Shuri are both black characters. And they’re still a part of Marvel’s property.

    About your "writers identify themselves with characters of same skin colors" point: First, Geoff Johns is not a white man.

    For one thing, Geoff Johns is mixed with white. He does have a tendency of not focusing on black characters very well. He’s done it with John Stewart. Allowed him to play a background character and a black best friend. And I believe on the Blade TV show he has taken away the focus on the Blade character and put more focus on the white character. And I don’t even think the Cyborg character was done well in his Justice League ongoing. Black Panther is probably the only character he’s done well with. But I believe he didn’t have that kind of control over in Marvel like he does over in DC. You will never ever convince me that this guy does characters like John Stewart justice. So there’s no need for you to debate with me on that. You would just be wasting your time. I won’t be convinced.

    So your accusing him of mistreating John only because he is white is unsustainable.
    I’m accusing him of mistreating John because he’s not fond of the character and wasted John fans’ time of not capitalizing on the character, due to his success on the JL toons. And not only that, but he never advocated for the character to at least get a mini ongoing, while Kyle and Guy did. It’s just one of those things where writers may easier to be identified with other characters that resembles their race, who they can relate more with.

    If what you said is true, Simon should be the prime GL now.
    What are you talking about? Simon was treated as the prime GL in Rebirth, along with Jessica. The reason why he’s not is because him and Jessica didn’t meet expectations in their ongoing. It looks like it comes down to rather create your own characters than give an existing popular one a chance and see where it goes.


    Second, hey, have you heard a notable writer called Priest? Third, is the writer of Mosaic, which is seen as one of the best portrayal of John, a black male?
    For one thing, Priest is the one who killed off John Stewart wife. Another thing, is that since you brought up Mosaic, why couldn’t DC decide to capitalize on that after Hal Jordan failed in the 90’s?

    What kind of narrow mind would come out such a conclusion that people identify themselves with same skin colors instead of similar emotions and experiences, and accuse Geoff Johns as a racist writer? I guess you never read his Avengers or JSA run.
    Because most readers/writers can easier identify themselves with those characters. Even you complained about Asian characters not being treated well in DC. Writers like Gene Luen Yang later on tackled on writing books like New Superman that focus specifically on Asian characters, which was great. Although I think he said that wasn’t his intentions on writing an Asian solo, but still. The problem is that DC talents aren’t diverse enough. During the Geoff Johns era, whenever when John had to share the book with Hal, Kyle, and Guy, they had the bigger focus. Tony Bedard wanted to focus on Kyle more. Peter Tomasi, Tom Taylor wanted to focus more on Guy Gardner. Peter Tomasi even gave Guy Gardner an origin story and had John Stewart to not appear in issue 0. It’s very sad and there’s really no excuses here. And as for Geoff Johns being a racist, I never said of such thing. But yea, there are some fans that questioned on Johns on racism in the John Stewart thread. Geoff Johns has pretty much brought that to himself because of his known mistreatment of the John Stewart character.

    You just first exposed to John as a GL when you watched a cartoon over 20 years ago and couldn't accept the contrast of animation and comics and still refuse to accept the reality, which is they used John in the JL animation because he is black and they wanted to bring diversity to the show.
    I don’t really understand why you guys only say the reason why John Stewart was on the show was because he was black. Why not acknowledge the fact that they also put him there because they felt that his personality would fit in better contrast with his dynamic with Wally West as the Flash. John Stewart was never on the show only because he was black. This was already said. True, he was there because of diversity reasons, but that’s not the only reason he was brought there.

    John is not a victim of racial bias.
    Accept reality. He is unfortunately. If there was more big time black writers at DC comics, John would probably would have been in a better position.

    Instead, he has today's popularity is totally because he is black which made him into the show.
    I do think John is popular because of the Justice League cartoon show. Him being black was more of a bonus. At least the way I see it. Not only that but he also has non-minority fans as well. And plus I’ve seen some real veterans that claim John is their favorite character because of his Marine background.

    With all of that said, I'm sorry, but I don't think your arguments will ever be good enough to convince me on why John had misfortunes in the past. There was way too many excuses in your post for writers like Geoff Johns on where he can do no wrong. He's one of the main reasons on why I'm a very bitter fan. I'm not with that and I don't think you'll ever convince me. Ever. So it's better to just stop arguing and move on from that.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    I don't understand why this thread had to be turned into another pointless Hal vs John/racial bias/white privilege/forced diversity/20 year old cartoon debacle all over again, but I guess people just can't help themselves. I think at this point fans actually enjoy arguing about this stuff because it's so easy. The hard part is always to try to stay positive, the easy part is to point fingers as to why this and that isn't the way fans want it to be. GL fandom is long past the point of holding hands and singing kumbaya, but man this stuff can really get embarrassing sometimes.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    A
    For one thing, Geoff Johns is mixed with white. He does have a tendency of not focusing on black characters very well. He’s done it with John Stewart. Allowed him to play a background character and a black best friend. And I believe on the Blade TV show he has taken away the focus on the Blade character and put more focus on the white character. And I don’t even think the Cyborg character was done well in his Justice League ongoing. Black Panther is probably the only character he’s done well with. But I believe he didn’t have that kind of control over in Marvel like he does over in DC. You will never ever convince me that this guy does characters like John Stewart justice. So there’s no need for you to debate with me on that. You would just be wasting your time. I won’t be convinced.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Though, you can make an argument for Guy Gardner being successful on his own. He was a quintessential '90s style hero with an attitude, spewing childish insults while he fought, calling people buttheads, dweebs, and the like. If DC gave him a good push with a great artist and great stories, he probably could have worked just as well as Lobo at the time.
    I STILL say Beau Smith made a silk purse from a saw's ear with his run on GG:Warrior.
    Heaps of swagger, but also brains. Guy was no longer the mindless idiot brute. Although Beau made the Vuldarian stuff work well enough, If they'd simply let him keep the yellow ring and let Beau run with him, the title probably would've lasted longer than it did.
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  11. #86
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    Hal's turn to Parallax was probably the best twist to his character DC ever had for him.

    But what made it interesting was he didn't really ever become a villain, he was just a broken hero trying to do what he thought was right. And arguably he was right about what he was doing, especially Zero Hour.

    It's hard not to root for the guy who though without realizing it got close to undoing Crisis on Infinite Earths on his own and restoring trillions of lives.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    Actually, it’s really you. So don’t try to redirect that back to me.



    Kyle was originally created to be an every day man, who appeared to be white. Of course they didn’t want to risk creating a black character or use the existing one.



    Whoever said DC never had top-tier characters as interesting as Marvel? I never had said this. So you’re just making up stuff here. DC does have top-tier characters, they just don’t capitalize on them as much as they should. This is why there’s many complaints about existing black characters not grttingthe treatment like they should. I don’t even understand why does this even have to be a debate.



    I thought Luke Cage no longer doesn’t identify himself as Power Man anymore. I thought he just goes by as Luke Cage. I could be wrong there. And didn’t Luke Cage fought Atlas over that name? And T’Challa and Shuri are both black characters. And they’re still a part of Marvel’s property.




    For one thing, Geoff Johns is mixed with white. He does have a tendency of not focusing on black characters very well. He’s done it with John Stewart. Allowed him to play a background character and a black best friend. And I believe on the Blade TV show he has taken away the focus on the Blade character and put more focus on the white character. And I don’t even think the Cyborg character was done well in his Justice League ongoing. Black Panther is probably the only character he’s done well with. But I believe he didn’t have that kind of control over in Marvel like he does over in DC. You will never ever convince me that this guy does characters like John Stewart justice. So there’s no need for you to debate with me on that. You would just be wasting your time. I won’t be convinced.



    I’m accusing him of mistreating John because he’s not fond of the character and wasted John fans’ time of not capitalizing on the character, due to his success on the JL toons. And not only that, but he never advocated for the character to at least get a mini ongoing, while Kyle and Guy did. It’s just one of those things where writers may easier to be identified with other characters that resembles their race, who they can relate more with.



    What are you talking about? Simon was treated as the prime GL in Rebirth, along with Jessica. The reason why he’s not is because him and Jessica didn’t meet expectations in their ongoing. It looks like it comes down to rather create your own characters than give an existing popular one a chance and see where it goes.




    For one thing, Priest is the one who killed off John Stewart wife. Another thing, is that since you brought up Mosaic, why couldn’t DC decide to capitalize on that after Hal Jordan failed in the 90’s?



    Because most readers/writers can easier identify themselves with those characters. Even you complained about Asian characters not being treated well in DC. Writers like Gene Luen Yang later on tackled on writing books like New Superman that focus specifically on Asian characters, which was great. Although I think he said that wasn’t his intentions on writing an Asian solo, but still. The problem is that DC talents aren’t diverse enough. During the Geoff Johns era, whenever when John had to share the book with Hal, Kyle, and Guy, they had the bigger focus. Tony Bedard wanted to focus on Kyle more. Peter Tomasi, Tom Taylor wanted to focus more on Guy Gardner. Peter Tomasi even gave Guy Gardner an origin story and had John Stewart to not appear in issue 0. It’s very sad and there’s really no excuses here. And as for Geoff Johns being a racist, I never said of such thing. But yea, there are some fans that questioned on Johns on racism in the John Stewart thread. Geoff Johns has pretty much brought that to himself because of his known mistreatment of the John Stewart character.



    I don’t really understand why you guys only say the reason why John Stewart was on the show was because he was black. Why not acknowledge the fact that they also put him there because they felt that his personality would fit in better contrast with his dynamic with Wally West as the Flash. John Stewart was never on the show only because he was black. This was already said. True, he was there because of diversity reasons, but that’s not the only reason he was brought there.



    Accept reality. He is unfortunately. If there was more big time black writers at DC comics, John would probably would have been in a better position.



    I do think John is popular because of the Justice League cartoon show. Him being black was more of a bonus. At least the way I see it. Not only that but he also has non-minority fans as well. And plus I’ve seen some real veterans that claim John is their favorite character because of his Marine background.

    With all of that said, I'm sorry, but I don't think your arguments will ever be good enough to convince me on why John had misfortunes in the past. There was way too many excuses in your post for writers like Geoff Johns on where he can do no wrong. He's one of the main reasons on why I'm a very bitter fan. I'm not with that and I don't think you'll ever convince me. Ever. So it's better to just stop arguing and move on from that.
    Maybe because John had failed to lead the franchise in COIE?

    I think you need to read my post again, I said DC never has top-tier black characters as interesting as Marvel. That’s my point. I like a lot of Marvel black characters. I just don’t find DC black characters that interesting.

    I’m citing these character to tell you, when characters share the same name, maybe the most popular one is because he/she is the most popular one, not because he/she is white?

    Geoff Johns had done Mr Terrific, Black Panther well. He was also the only writer wrote good stories for Cyborg in new52. So is that possible that he is not that fond of John because he just not that fond of John, not because of what you said “racial bias”?

    No, Simon was treated like trash to serve the true star of the book, Jessica. If you ever read that book you will know. And Jessica is already a more lively character than John. That’s just my personal opinion.

    Uh, yeah, Priest killed off John’s wife. Since you said people would identify themselves with same skin colors, shouldn’t he give John some preferential treatment, like, not killing his wife?
    I think this question about Mosaic you already asked me longtime ago in another thread, and I answered that . Maybe you should go looking for it.

    As an Asian girl, I wanna say, New Superman sucks. Again, that’s just my own point.

    “Geoff Johns has pretty much brought that to himself because of his known mistreatment of the John Stewart character.” You sound like Geoff Johns deserves to be called a racist just because you think he didn’t do a comic character justice. Well, if I get you right, shame on you.

    Look at what you said, can you convince yourself with that? Is John’s personality in the show same with the comics? Is Wally’s personality the same? I love Wally, but you have to admit they made a lot of changes to the characters in the animation. For example, where did John’s military background come from?

    Did Wally West get the treatment he deserves? Most characters are unluckily. But blaming one writer, making serious accusations because one character’s situation makes you unhappy is too much… I hate what Snyder is doing with Sinestro. But I never said he discriminates against red-skin aliens. I just said he doesn’t get the character, and he should let him go.

    I’m not trying to convince you. You’re free to live in your own world. I just can’t help speaking out when I see a fallacy.

  13. #88
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    I am hoping that ET never gets adapted outside comics, unless it is told in quick flashbacks (or in the opening credits) with GL: Rebirth as the main story.

    Unfortunately since the 2011 film, I'm gonna always get nervous about any GL not named Jessica appearing in outside media.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Shaw View Post
    I am hoping that ET never gets adapted outside comics, unless it is told in quick flashbacks (or in the opening credits) with GL: Rebirth as the main story.

    Unfortunately since the 2011 film, I'm gonna always get nervous about any GL not named Jessica appearing in outside media.
    I dont think they'd adapt ET. I mean, Kyle sold well and rivaled Hal in popularity and all that for many years, but Hal's been back longer than Kyle was the sole Lantern and even when Kyle was at the height of his popularity, most people agreed ET was an awfully executed story (even Kyle fans usually knew that ET was poorly done). I think if anything gets adapted it'll be from Johns' run; Blackest Night, Sinestro Corps War, etc.

    I cant totally rule out a ET adaptation in one of those direct-to-DvD animated things, but even then I doubt they'd go in that direction. And those are pretty easy to ignore anyway.
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    Im kind of weirdly okay with it, in part because I like two things: the Emerald Knights story arc where a time traveling Hal teamed up with Kyle and then wound up fighting against a time traveling Parallax (and both after Parallax had died, so it was the more nuanced version of the character), and the Green Lantern Rebirth idea of Parallax as the avatar of fear (because it helped give me the Sinestro Corps War and a Parallax Kyle Rayner.)

    I also will confess that I read Emerald Twilght kind of as a wrestling fan seeing a legendary face doing an over-the-top heel turn; I had no investment in Hal personally, could understand why HEAT existed (though I mostly used their website to see custom action figures) and was kind of interested in Kyles story... but to be honest I became a Guy Gardner fan much more quickly, and he was well behind Wally West as the Flash, then the Young Justice characters.

    I also think you *could* adapt Emerald Twilight to some other media... but mostly because you could fix it by re-writing it to accommodate Johnss additions to the mythos. I mean, if Young Justice wanted to do a version of it, Ive got plenty of faith that Greg Weismann would make it work - the man made a one-armed Arsenal a cool idea.
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