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  1. #76
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Sorry, that may have come off stronger than I meant it to. You have been taking an incredibly optimistic approach to Jon's changes. That's great, but for a lot of Jon fans, there doesn't seem to be much reason for optimism. Bendis has pretty much done exactly what people have been dreading and there doesn't seem like much reason to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. He may let Jon continue to appear in Superman, but there is a seriously good chance he's gone from the title after the Unity Saga.
    That's fine. I don't take it personally. Like I said, if that's how you feel on the matter, then that's how you feel. You don't have to explain yourself to me. I feel like I get it.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  2. #77
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    That's fair given how he opted to write All-new X-Men by basically using Scott and Jean as his eyes and ears into the complicated and contradictory world of X-Men continuity. It also lines up with what I think is Bendis' best ensemble cast, Ultimate Spider-Man. There he juggled Peter, MJ, Gwen, Kitty, Aunt May, JJ, Jessica Drew, Bombshell, Nick Fury, Johnny Storm, Bobby Drake, Liz, Kong, and Flash throughout the book's original two runs. That was achieved through working through Peter's eyes and ears, and yet being quite generous with development beyond him. I think that'd be a great place to start off the book for new perspective reader, yeah.
    I'm surprised you mentioned Flash in that list .

    Although I'm not sure if that's comparable to the Legion since all of them would, presumably be active and more prominent compared to Spider-Man's supporting cast, especially when in the long run Bendis only consistently focused on 3-4 of them.
    Eh, Bendis also flat out said that nothings happening to end Damian and Jon's friendship, so I'll take him at his word. There supposed to have that Big homage coming up. He also said that Jon's age up is something Lois, Clark, and Jon will have to continue dealing with together as a family.
    I wasn't expecting him to end it, I just don't think we'll see much more of Damian and Jon together after the reunion.

  3. #78
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    This bolsters my theory that they're just going to return to the pre-Flashpoint continuity and more or less pretend the last eight years never happened.
    I have a feeling you are correct (not that Jon will be erased just rendered an irrelevant background character who is seldom seen or mentioned in Superman books). Oh well, it was fun while it lasted I guess...
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-17-2019 at 02:06 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  4. #79
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    I know I'll get flack for this, but I really hope this is a way to shuffle him off for a while until people lose interest and he can be retconned away.
    And I wish he'd take Damian to the future with him, again with the hope they'll both eventually be forgotten about.

  5. #80
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I know I'll get flack for this, but I really hope this is a way to shuffle him off for a while until people lose interest and he can be retconned away.
    And I wish he'd take Damian to the future with him, again with the hope they'll both eventually be forgotten about.
    Damian is far too popular for that to ever happen, but with Jon, you might just get your wish.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #81
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I dont get why people are assuming Jon will be in the Legion and nowhere else. Clark was with the Legion but still had plenty of adventures in his own era with his own supporting cast and rogues gallery.

    There is literally no reason Jon can't do the same thing. I fully expect to see him in Superman, Legion, and possibly a team-book set in the modern day like Super Sons or Titans.

    Seriously, Jon can do it just like Clark did; leave Friday night at 8:00 for the future, spend a few days with the Legion, then return home Friday night at 8:01, go on patrol with his dad until 11:00, then spend Saturday with Damian.
    That's very true. Also opens Superman up to more potential Legion adventures, so that's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    DC isn't going to see it that way. They put out a good book with the Super Sons, and it's not selling. They're not going to care about excuses like "oh, its a flashback so absolutely nobody cares about it!" If Jon had as much support as he appears to, and people were really as upset over the aging as they appear to be online, those people would be grabbing the title off the shelves as the "last gasp."

    Jon's only been around what, two-three years? He's not a staple, he's an experiment in bringing a Silver Age "Elseworlds" style idea to the mainstream market (just like Clark-Diana dating was). They're not going to care or be as invested in Jon as the fans are. And if the only book in mainstream direct market sales where he's still ten isn't selling that's just going to tell DC that ten-year-old Jon doesn't have the support the internet makes it look like he has. If all of Jon's fans decided to drop Super Sons because of the age-up, they're just cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

    Ive been buying the book and I dont even think Clark should have a kid (I do like Jon though, even if he shouldnt exist). Where's everyone else?
    I don't know.. I think Jon will be around awhile. This feels like it has more permanence, but that may just be me. The one comparison that would make me think that DC would understand a difference in sales is comparing the Super-Sons situation with "Superman: Lois & Clark." I bought those because I wanted to show "my" Superman had viability, but it didn't sell anywhere near the numbers of the main book. So, in all honesty, the numbers here shouldn't surprise them too much.
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  7. #82
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm surprised you mentioned Flash in that list .

    Although I'm not sure if that's comparable to the Legion since all of them would, presumably be active and more prominent compared to Spider-Man's supporting cast, especially when in the long run Bendis only consistently focused on 3-4 of them.
    Lol from what I remember Flash was the weakest of everyone on the list. And yeah, naturally it's not a 1-to-1 comparison, but his ability to give each of the characters I mentioned some sort of arc, goals onto themselves, and interest should be noted. I'm thinking Bendis will ultimately regularly focus on Jon, the original 3, and an assortment rotating members go in and out of focus. This'll likely include his own creations too naturally. But I'm thinking if he can at least start off with the sort of seeded development he managed in Ultimate Spider-Man for the other 20-some-odd members then we'd be in good shape.

    The roster size is of course one of the reasons why a Legion book is usually so intimidating for new readers. It's not unlike X-Men in that way. That said, unlike X-Men, the Legion today don't have the benefit of multiple books to section things off in. So, starting at a point where you have one POV main character, 3 or 4 consistent supporting leads, and then 20-some-odd supporting cast members that rotate in and out to get there shine sounds like a sensible way to attack this property to allow people put off by the roster size to find footing.

    I wasn't expecting him to end it, I just don't think we'll see much more of Damian and Jon together after the reunion.
    Yeah, at the moment that's up in the air. But I have to assume he'll put him in a fair bit given how much he has Jon mention Damian over the duration of his run, and how willing he is to just have Batman pop in for a second for Clark's sake. So, I dunno. Probably end up being a Dick/Damian situation where they're not regularly together, but when they do hang out there's special care to highlight the friendship (see King's run on Batman and Grayson).
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    I don't know.. I think Jon will be around awhile. This feels like it has more permanence, but that may just be me. The one comparison that would make me think that DC would understand a difference in sales is comparing the Super-Sons situation with "Superman: Lois & Clark." I bought those because I wanted to show "my" Superman had viability, but it didn't sell anywhere near the numbers of the main book. So, in all honesty, the numbers here shouldn't surprise them too much.
    I agree that Jon is going to stick around for a while. Seems that way anyway, and it seems like DC is interested in trying to expand his brand and recognition factor (Ink/Zoom OGN's, Legion, the Super Sons maxi, etc). Maybe he'll even become a staple, in time, just like Kara did. I dont think Jon (or Damian) are going anywhere. But what I'm saying is that DC looks at the tangible evidence they have; sales, and they pay less attention to internet chatter. And looking at the sales, it doesnt appear that Jon has the giant mountain of support these forums make it look like he does.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  9. #84
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I know I'll get flack for this, but I really hope this is a way to shuffle him off for a while until people lose interest and he can be retconned away.
    And I wish he'd take Damian to the future with him, again with the hope they'll both eventually be forgotten about.
    Yeah! Well. I am a true superman fan. So, "i will always remember"

    . It was a fantastic yet disappointing run with the kid while it lasted. Jon has become my surprise favourite. I went it lois ans clark to know more about preflashpoint superman. I am gonna miss the kid and what could have been.I ended up with a character that is heart warming. At this, point i am beginning to realise why clark will always be seen as an archetype more than a character. Because his world is never allowed to expand,but to be changed and rebooted. Rebirth was supposed to be the antithesis to that, they even tried to encorpate new 52.
    At the end, of the day Clark's greatest tragedy will always be this, not whether his parents are alive or his planet exploded.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    That comic forgot Mon-El/Valor/Lar Gand, who I believe was the first kid to be screwed over by Clark's attempts to help. Granted, Clark was just a teenager himself, but he still trapped someone he called "brother" in the Phantom Zone for a thousand years.

    Actually....maybe the first was young Lex? I forget whether the Mon-El thing happened before the Lex thing. And Lex was responsible for his own downfall, really.....but still, another kid screwed up by Clark trying to help.

    This is what I've been saying. Clark and family? They don't go together. Never have.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I know I'll get flack for this, but I really hope this is a way to shuffle him off for a while until people lose interest and he can be retconned away.
    And I wish he'd take Damian to the future with him, again with the hope they'll both eventually be forgotten about.
    Bendis and DC's goal is to make Legion an A list book, so I wouldn't put your hopes in that.

  12. #87
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    This is what I've been saying. Clark and family? They don't go together. Never have.
    I've heard your ideas on Clark and family before as this concept that it's just not something for him, and I agree, but only to the degree that it's not easy (but in no way shape or form impossible) for him. And I think the argument is flawed because of the nature of decades long serialized publication and the nature of Superman as a brand before now. But I do think friction in his family situation is something conceptually consistent that goes beyond guys in suits wanting Superman to leave his cousin in the care of strangers.

    Bendis' Superman fascinates me, because he's saying that it's not that Clark is bad at family, but more so that his family is his blind spot, and he takes it quite hard if they aren't in the box he assumes they'd be in. He's a Superman who wants normal, but can't have it because of the nature of his life. That said, Bendis is also clearly putting up the point that Clark's family is quite extraordinary in their own right, and they keep up with his brand of crazy while bringing their own. This is the first time that it's been outright said to Clark "who needs normal? That doesn't HAVE to be us." As Bendis said, Clark's a "broken boy" but these people around him make him whole and they're able to roll with the punches.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-17-2019 at 03:32 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  13. #88
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That comic forgot Mon-El/Valor/Lar Gand, who I believe was the first kid to be screwed over by Clark's attempts to help. Granted, Clark was just a teenager himself, but he still trapped someone he called "brother" in the Phantom Zone for a thousand years.

    Actually....maybe the first was young Lex? I forget whether the Mon-El thing happened before the Lex thing. And Lex was responsible for his own downfall, really.....but still, another kid screwed up by Clark trying to help.

    This is what I've been saying. Clark and family? They don't go together. Never have.
    Well, He has to keep panel space in mind. This keeps happening not because of consistent characterization, but the Conservative mind set of the editorials. That is the message of the story. It's not like bruce is great with kids either. But, his kids are largely not forgotten. Jon always had an up hill battle. I knew the moment, supersons was announced as a prequel that they just want to cut back on jon and stop the momentum of the character. I wasn't going to waste my money on something that the editorial is clearly against.i knew, It will be an aggravating excersise, it is happening to wally west, dick grayson.. Etc their fans are cleary stuck with it. I am now just hoping for a good send off. I knew it would come, i was just an idiot to get pulled into jon anyways.
    The difference is superfamily characters are never allowed to build a fanbase or given a chance. Editorial is always looking for a stupid shake up. They don't bother with quality story telling. I have been read the hulk lately. It blows my mind how awesome these characters can be. How sales start to change with that kind of quality storytelling and word of mouth.it actively goes into the lore, than run away from it.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    DC isn't going to see it that way. They put out a good book with the Super Sons, and it's not selling. They're not going to care about excuses like "oh, its a flashback so absolutely nobody cares about it!" If Jon had as much support as he appears to, and people were really as upset over the aging as they appear to be online, those people would be grabbing the title off the shelves as the "last gasp."

    Jon's only been around what, two-three years? He's not a staple, he's an experiment in bringing a Silver Age "Elseworlds" style idea to the mainstream market (just like Clark-Diana dating was). They're not going to care or be as invested in Jon as the fans are. And if the only book in mainstream direct market sales where he's still ten isn't selling that's just going to tell DC that ten-year-old Jon doesn't have the support the internet makes it look like he has. If all of Jon's fans decided to drop Super Sons because of the age-up, they're just cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

    Ive been buying the book and I dont even think Clark should have a kid (I do like Jon though, even if he shouldnt exist). Where's everyone else?
    They won't care because the book is an apology and was never intended to continue. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been announced as a maxiseries from the beginning, and it wouldn't have had the sales gimmicks taken away. Even the Wonder Twins book is getting two covers.

    DC is also not going to continuously publish a book that is counter to the concept Bendis wants to implement. Sales numbers are irrelevant here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I disagree. DC's never going to say it outright, but my guess is they do see it that way. I think this was always how they intended things to go. Commission the series, but don't promote it and tie up Tomasi's hands in what stories he can tell, then have more of an argument to use when they don't bring it back. Come on, media companies do this sort of thing all the time.

    Even so, the first trade sold pretty decently and Zoom graphic novel seems to have as well. There's still call for it.
    Bingo.

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't buy that the age up situation hurts casual readers in regards to the Super Sons maxi. If one were to say it sticks in the craw of the hardcore fandom, absolutely. But singling out the casual reader? No way. In my experience casual readers are the one demo that cares least about that sort of thing. Casual readers care more about the moment. Its the hardcore fans who care more about continuity, the past, and setting things up for the future etc, etc. The casual reader? Stand alone stuff solely confined to that singular product doesn't bother them in the slightest. I think there'd be more of an argument to be made that confined stuff outside of normal continuity progression can be an outright appeal in their eyes, as opposed to something to scoff at.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-17-2019 at 04:12 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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