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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    The fact that the sidekicks change and move on but Batman remains static is part of the reason the family has gotten so big.

    The cognitive dissonance is that Batman hasn't really aged, and still has the personality trait of preferring to work alone, yet has a huge family with years of history - many of whom he trained himself. This is part of why other media tend to ignore much of his family, if not all, outside of Alfred, Lucius, and Jim Gordon.

    Most of the live action films, and the Arkham games, ignored most of the family until the final film/game where more were introduced for the end. In Titans, in order for at least two Robins to make sense, Bruce is much older and likely won't have another Robin beyond Jason because unlike the comics time is presumed to have passed and Bruce will have needed time to train two Robins after establishing his solo career. It also looks like, unlike the comics, there will be a significant age gap between Bruce and Kate in Batwoman - because Batman was said to predate Arrow's career and he has been going for 7 years, which means Batman has been active for longer, and Kate is just starting out but still young.

    The other thing about the character remaining static is he protects Gotham, has time to do things with his huge Bat-family, works with the Justice League, is involved in most of the major events - and still has time to heal from his injuries, learn and research a huge amount of stuff, solve cases with his detective skills, and keep his body in peak condition.

    In media outside of comics he does tend to develop more, including being less good at a lot of things than he comic version. In film, novel and video game form, I've seen his arc end with retirement or semi-retirement, often with some newcomer taking up the mantle.
    You've got it perfectly! Especially the bit about adaptations and other versions.

    Consider the Nolanverse. Bruce Wayne actually has an arc there, with a beginning, middle and end. He creates the persona of Batman to be a symbol of hope for the people, hoping that his actions would shake people out of apathy and prompt a revolution against crime and corruption. And after a while, he succeeds, with Harvey Dent and Jim Gordon being able to clean up the city. In fact, his mission is complete and he does get to hang up the cape and cowl...except that he didn't get his happy ending because the woman he loved died, and had she lived, she wouldn't have been with him anyway. So in a sense, he's still stuck being Batman, because there's nothing else in his life, even though Batman isn't needed anymore. When Batman is needed once more, he jumps at the chance to get back into the game. He saves Gotham one last time, but this time round, he finally is able to move on with his life, with a new love, and leave the mantle of Batman to someone else.

    Now that's not the kind of ending the mainstream DCU Batman would ever get...

  2. #17
    Amazing Member Jcady59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Funnily enough, the idea for Batman Inc germinates with a direct call-back to Year One...when Bruce realizes that he's never been alone, since there's always been someone to help him right from the start of his mission. And we then get a brief flashback to Bruce ringing the bell asking for Alfred to come help him, after the bat crashed throught the window. Bruce took this epiphany to its logical conclusion by setting up Batman Inc.

    Batman Inc-era Bruce that different from what he was during Year One. Morrisson just had him remember the optimism of his early career and the fact that, as much as he likes to think of himself as a loner, he's always had friends and allies around him. I guess you could call that character development of sorts, though arguably it was more of a course correction, undoing years of the brooding, dark and psychologically damaged Batman.
    I definitely saw it as character development,Year One Bruce would have never developed Batman Inc. he had to go through the years of being that dark ,jaded and cynical individual for that epiphany to even hit him like it did that was the development I was talking about.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcady59 View Post
    Bruce does have development it just happens over longer periods of time in smaller doses,but it is there if one looks for it. Batman is a static protagonist he affects and changes his world more than the world affects and changes him,he might not change as much as the Robins(though Iíd argue they donít change nearly as much as people say they do)but a Change is there. Look at it like this the Bruce Wayne of year one in a significantly different character then the Bruce Wayne of Batman Inc. the problem is DC reboots every couple of decades so we never get to see whatís next or how his story ends.
    Yeah, they really don't.
    Has Nightwing changed that much since the Dixon days? It's more like he gets thrown into different situations occasionally (Batman II, Agent 37) but that's more about seeing how his character adjusts to said situations and brings something new to the table. Which is fine, people like Dick the way he is same as people like Bruce.
    Damian has been around since, what, 2005 or 2006? He's a little less of a brat, but that's about it lol.

  4. #19
    Helping the Helpless Denirac's Avatar
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    Well to me Batman is developing but that might be because I stopped all bat-books not Batman Beyond
    Wally West deserved better than Heroes in Crisis

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  5. #20
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Don't really need character development when the character's already perfect, just need good stories.

  6. #21
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Every story has character development, it just depends on how big or small the effect is. Knightfall and No Man's Land were pretty big and important rise above tragedy and trust those around you type of character stories.

    A lot of more modern Batman stories tend to tell a lot of similar themed stories. Something about trusting the family, being a loner, having issues with the League. I think that's where the issue really is, a lot of Bruce's personal journeys tend to be a lot about the same things, jus told different ways. Which isn't bad but there is only so many ways you can color the same image if you get what I mean. DC just needs to change things up when it comes to Bruce's personal journeys.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    That's actually a pretty good analysis...yeah that's the kind of development that I was talking about, not so much physical changes but character growth.
    Once upon at time you saw Batman balance life as Bruce and as Batman. Now we rarely see the Bruce Wayne side in books.

    That is what is missing from him.

    In media outside of comics he does tend to develop more, including being less good at a lot of things than he comic version. In film, novel and video game form, I've seen his arc end with retirement or semi-retirement, often with some newcomer taking up the mantle.
    See Batman the Animated Series.

    You saw that balance.

  8. #23
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    Dick doesn't change either. Probably bc he's as much an icon as Bruce. The best and most he can be is already as Robin in the old age (partner, solo, team, global, even multiverse, even normal life and love interests) Nightwing/37/whatever now is trying to reach that level Robin did in the 50s - 70s and even sometimes he's not trying anymore (like Ric now)
    Jason and Damian is the ones that CAN and SHOULD change but DC wouldn't let them. Tim is the only one who had character development (not because he's better but bc he's allowed to keep his through 25 years while everyone is retconned left and right)
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 06-16-2019 at 08:38 PM.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    I’m all for character growth but if DC decides to marry him to his cousin, I’m out.
    No... the other Batwoman.

    Back to topic, Batman's development happened every few decades based on the experiences of his life...
    When he first started
    When he first trained a Robin
    When said Robin go to college
    When he got another Robin
    When that Robin died
    When he realized he has expanded family
    When more of those expanded family died
    ...Which make sense for an eternal icon...

    The problem is that whole death and collecting family thing has become the only development he got lately, where the writers and characters are trapped in repeating a cycle of depression and realization.

    Oh, I have a family. Oh, they're dead or suffering. I should be sad again.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-17-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    No... the other Batwoman.

    Back to topic, Batman's development happened every few decades based on the experiences of his life...
    When he first started
    When he first trained a Robin
    When said Robin go to college
    When he got another Robin
    When that Robin died
    When he realized he has expanded family
    When more of those expanded family died
    ...Which make sense for an eternal icon...

    The problem is that whole death and collecting family thing has become the only development he got lately, where the writers and characters are trapped in repeating a cycle of depression and realization.

    Oh, I have a family. Oh, they're dead or suffering. I should be sad again.
    Iíd say this is a good summary, though I think Iíd add that Morrisonís run added a capstone in a way that made it all feel like genuinely fluid and organic progress... and that the New 52ís decision to withdraw from that capstone maybe caused more recognition by fans that cycles were beginning to repeat more frequently than before.

    Thereís actually some pretty good continuity and flow pretty much all the way from the Bronze Age through to today, but it kind of relies on Batman and his allies being allowed to grow older during that time period. And his allies growing older and evolving served to reinforce the perception of Bruce aging and growing himself. The Robins and Batgirls all evolving the way they did pre-New 52 followed Bruceís own de-facto story: Dick-Jason-Tim-(Steph-Tim)-Damian played as an evolution of Batmanís family from surrogate brotherhood to mentor to true father, and having ten Batgirl position grow and evolve likewise helped it.

    And yeah, a Bruce Wayne willing to create Batman Inc. really works really well as the result of the guy who was created in Batman Year One going through Dickís years as Robin, Batgirlís debut, Dickís graduation and Jasonís ascension, TKJ&DITF, the rise of Nightwing and Oracle, the third Robin, Knighttfall, No Manís Land, etc.

    But it doesnít really work as well when Babs was the only Batgirl, Gordonís much younger, and the audience was teased with Dick as Batman only to have that rejected and have Didio angry at the implications of an older Bruce Wayne and constantly trying to fight against that by targeting the Batfamily.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 06-17-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Yes, I came in Post Morrison, so in my mind, all the continuities are already connected and so that's how I view it right of the bat (heh).

  12. #27
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’d say this is a good summary, though I think I’d add that Morrison’s run added a capstone in a way that made it all feel like genuinely fluid and organic progress... and that the New 52’s decision to withdraw from that capstone maybe caused more recognition by fans that cycles were beginning to repeat more frequently than before.

    There’s actually some pretty good continuity and flow pretty much all the way from the Bronze Age through to today, but it kind of relies on Batman and his allies being allowed to grow older during that time period. And his allies growing older and evolving served to reinforce the perception of Bruce aging and growing himself. The Robins and Batgirls all evolving the way they did pre-New 52 followed Bruce’s own de-facto story: Dick-Jason-Tim-(Steph-Tim)-Damian played as an evolution of Batman’s family from surrogate brotherhood to mentor to true father, and having ten Batgirl position grow and evolve likewise helped it.

    And yeah, a Bruce Wayne willing to create Batman Inc. really works really well as the result of the guy who was created in No Man’s Land going through Dick’s years as Robin, Batgirl’s debut, Dick’s graduation and Jason’s ascension, TKJ&DITF, the rise of Nightwing and Oracle, the third Robin, Knighttfall, No Man’s Land, etc.

    But it doesn’t really work as well when Babs was the only Batgirl, Gordon’s much younger, and the audience was teased with Dick as Batman only to have that rejected and have Didio angry at the implications of an older Bruce Wayne and constantly trying to fight against that by targeting the Batfamily.
    Eh, I don't care for Morrison's "it all happened" take or aging Bruce up. At some point we need a reboot that sticks and brings him back down in age. I don't want Batgranddad.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Don't really need character development when the character's already perfect, just need good stories.
    Just so much wrong with this.

    And people wonder why comics are dying a slow death.

  14. #29
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Just so much wrong with this.

    And people wonder why comics are dying a slow death.
    Um, Batman is an iconic character worldwide, his movies have raked in at over a billion dollars, he has like a dozen cartoons, DTVs, video games, some of his stories are classics of the superhero genre, etc. Comics may be slowly dying, but Batman isn't, not by a long shot.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Um, Batman is an iconic character worldwide, his movies have raked in at over a billion dollars, he has like a dozen cartoons, DTVs, video games, some of his stories are classics of the superhero genre, etc. Comics may be slowly dying, but Batman isn't, not by a long shot.
    Except each of those Batmen have been different. Some even allowed to progress as characters.

    Comics version is two steps forward, and depending on the next author, editor, etc., could be 5 steps back.

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