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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    The last quote is uh. All male heroes with a female counterpart are above their femaale version. The most iconic female bhero with almost 80 years of history gets a male version. And in no time he is technically more powerful than her. The bad treatment never ends for wondy.
    Usually I disagree about your complaints about powerlevels, but dang is that an awful bit of development from Robinson. We’re all better off for Jason getting sent to Limbo forever.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Usually I disagree about your complaints about powerlevels, but dang is that an awful bit of development from Robinson. We’re all better off for Jason getting sent to Limbo forever.
    Symptomatic, I would have to say, of writers wanting to promote their OWN creations at the expense of the books title character.

    Having a compelling supporting cast is one thing. Putting in characters who upstage the lead constantly is something else entirely.

    Yes GWW, I AM looking at you...
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  3. #33
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Cassie powered by Trigon is no longer in continuity. Close but no cigar.

    And she's nowhere near as problematic as I Ching.
    I Ching, problematic; Cassie's Trigon-armor, no longer in-continuity...these assertions are totally subjective and unfounded. The Trigon-armor isn't anymore out-of-continuity, than Diana's paternity, by Zeus. Furthermore, as I see it, I Ching is only problematic, if the WW comic is an all-myth/fantasy, all-the-time enterprise, which, thankfully, ..it no longer is.

    The problem in WW is a lack of narrative invention and, more generally, the lack of a consistent narrative.

    Who is Wonder Woman, and where does she live?

    What is Wonder Woman's mission?

    What can Wonder Woman do to accomplish her mission?

    What is in the way of Wonder Woman accomplishing her mission?

    Who are Wonder Woman’s friends and allies?

    What can Wonder Woman’s friends and allies do to help her accomplish her mission?

    Who are Wonder Woman’s enemies?

    What do Wonder Woman’s enemies want most?

    What will Wonder Woman’s enemies do to get what they want?

    What is in the way of Wonder Woman’s enemies getting what they want?

    Does Wonder Woman's mission conflict with what her enemies want, somewhere in her on-going story?

    What can Wonder Woman’s enemies do to stop her from accomplishing her mission?


    These are the building blocks of an archetypal comic book superhero narrative, and I don't see how I Ching's presence in the comic made answering those questions, ..problematic. They really must be answered, in some way that is entertaining to us, if WW will achieve some of the commercial success that other comics have. Otherwise, we will have more of the same - Harryhausen gods popping out of soup, Diana stabity-stabbity, and it starts, all over again and again.

    Take these FOUR, most important of the above questions into consideration, and you change the WW comic, for the better. What is Wonder Woman's mission? What can Wonder Woman’s friends and allies do to help her accomplish her mission? What do Wonder Woman’s enemies want most? Does Wonder Woman's mission conflict with what her enemies want, somewhere in her on-going story? Whatever supporting characters or super-villains aren't answering those questions are wastes of panel-space and probably need to go. Whatever stories fail to resolve those problems, ultimately fail the larger, on-going narrative ..and come off as gruelingly inconsequential to us. Answering even those four questions would be very progressive.

    We need that in WW...progress. We need to feel, as though the Invisible Plane is actually flying somewhere.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-18-2019 at 02:32 AM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I Ching, problematic; Cassie's Trigon-armor, no longer in-continuity...these assertions are totally subjective and unfounded. The Trigon-armor isn't anymore out-of-continuity, than Diana's paternity, by Zeus. Furthermore, as I see it, I Ching is only problematic, if the WW comic is an all-myth/fantasy, all-the-time enterprise, which, thankfully, ..it no longer is.
    There is nothing subjective about either of this. Everything about I Ching starting from his name is tone deaf. And Cassie clearly does not have the Trigon armor anymore in Young Justice.

    The problem in WW is a lack of narrative invention and, more generally, the lack of a consistent narrative.

    Who is Wonder Woman, and where does she live?

    What is Wonder Woman's mission?

    What can Wonder Woman do to accomplish her mission?

    What is in the way of Wonder Woman accomplishing her mission?

    Who are Wonder Woman’s friends and allies?

    What can Wonder Woman’s friends and allies do to help her accomplish her mission?

    Who are Wonder Woman’s enemies?

    What do Wonder Woman’s enemies want most?

    What will Wonder Woman’s enemies do to get what they want?

    What is in the way of Wonder Woman’s enemies getting what they want?

    Does Wonder Woman's mission conflict with what her enemies want, somewhere in her on-going story?

    What can Wonder Woman’s enemies do to stop her from accomplishing her mission?

    These are the building blocks of an archetypal comic book superhero narrative, and I don't see how I Ching's presence in the comic made answering those questions, ..problematic. They really must be answered, in some way that is entertaining to us; otherwise, why are we reading Wonder
    All of these questions should be addressed. None of them require I Ching to be present. He is a racially offensive stereotype from one of the worst periods of Wonder Woman and the franchise hasn't been done any favors by being associated with him.

    Just because Wonder Woman has historically had issues with keeping a supporting cast doesn't mean some characters are worth keeping around. And I Ching is most certainly not worth keeping around.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I Ching, problematic; Cassie's Trigon-armor, no longer in-continuity...these assertions are totally subjective and unfounded. The Trigon-armor isn't anymore out-of-continuity, than Diana's paternity, by Zeus. Furthermore, as I see it, I Ching is only problematic, if the WW comic is an all-myth/fantasy, all-the-time enterprise, which, thankfully, ..it no longer is.

    The problem in WW is a lack of narrative invention and, more generally, the lack of a consistent narrative.

    Who is Wonder Woman...?
    Oh gods! If I have to sit through ANOTHER story about this question I swear I will vomit up my collection of Homer.

    It seems like EVERY other writer on the book wants to go through this. For GAWD'S SAKE! We've been reading the bloody book for years. There are HUNDREDS of issues folks can read. The only reason they seem to have for this is that THEY, THE WRITER, DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE ANY IDEA!!!

    You want to know who Wonder Woman is? Put her in a situation and have her react to it. Not this bloody self indulgent soul searching twaddle people keep wheeling out - pages and pages of doubt-frosted intoversion punctuated by mournful looks at sunsets.

    We get it. Sunsets are pretty and sad. Move on and put in some ass kicking!
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  6. #36
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There is nothing subjective about either of this. Everything about I Ching starting from his name is tone deaf. And Cassie clearly does not have the Trigon armor anymore in Young Justice.



    All of these questions should be addressed. None of them require I Ching to be present. He is a racially offensive stereotype from one of the worst periods of Wonder Woman and the franchise hasn't been done any favors by being associated with him.

    Just because Wonder Woman has historically had issues with keeping a supporting cast doesn't mean some characters are worth keeping around. And I Ching is most certainly not worth keeping around.
    Let me follow you, here...

    With respect to the WW comic's lackluster sales, you assert that I Ching is problematic...contributing to the problem? I Ching brings age, race and, most importantly, genre diversity into the WW comic, without importing characters from other comics (Nemesis, Orion, etc), ..but, you don't like him, have no use for him and find him problematic. Very well; I'll give you that I Ching isn't as important, a player, ..without a narrative, in which Diana is a Tom Strong or Tombraider styled adventurer, as she was in the Mod Era. Likewise, I find Cassie to be a completely ruined character and rather useless, now that WW's iconic Gateway City and supporting cast has been done away with. Under present narrative conditions, neither of these characters would make much of an impact.

    Clearly, there is merit to be found in both opinions, and the relevance of one need not negate the other.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Let me follow you, here...

    With respect to the WW comic's lackluster sales, you assert that I Ching is problematic...contributing to the problem? I Ching brings age, race and, most importantly, genre diversity into the WW comic, without importing characters from other comics (Nemesis, Orion, etc), ..but, you don't like him, have no use for him and find him problematic. Very well; I'll give you that I Ching isn't as important, a player, ..without a narrative, in which Diana is a Tom Strong or Tombraider styled adventurer, as she was in the Mod Era. Likewise, I find Cassie to be a completely ruined character and rather useless, now that WW's iconic Gateway City and supporting cast has been done away with. Under present narrative conditions, neither of these characters would make much of an impact.

    Clearly, there is merit to be found in both opinions, and the relevance of one need not negate the other.
    I Ching is problematic because he's a racially offensive stereotype. That he won't help Diana's lackluster sales is obvious and is secondary to the issues with the character. If you want age, racial or genre diversity to WW, you can do far, far better. It has nothing to do with what narrative Diana is following. There is no story he can appear in that he won't be an absolute embarrassment because of the type of character that he is. And yes, I am going to assert that Cassie appearing in a WW comic will be far more positively received than I Ching no matter what the story is. Especially since Cassie being a demigoddess has more reason to be involved in the story Wilson is telling.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-18-2019 at 04:28 AM.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Very much agree with Agent Z here. The goal should not be to add diversity above all else, the goal should be to add good diversity that is integral to the stories and feels real. Not all superheroes need an old sidekick, as long as some of them have one. Not all superheroes need a queer sidekick, as long as some of them have one. Not all superheroes need an Asian (your definition of Asian may vary) sidekick, as long as some of them have one.

    If the goal is to add some age diversity to Wonder Woman, I'd rather focus on some older women. Show some or all of the Amazons as they were in the movie, not only as mid-20s supermodels. Julia Kapatelis should also be a semi-regular and perhaps the most important guide to help Diana navigate Man's World as she enters it, but even she isn't that particularly old. If Hoppy Greene could be brought back in some way, it'd be awesome. A middle-aged black woman from a blue collar background? That's not something you see a lot in superhero comics.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #39
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    I can speak only for myself.

    I never read WW, but when i heard about the new no. 1 (see sometimes it helps to relaunch a book, even if we dont like it) and read the preview, i was hooked.

    When Rucka left, the quality left with him. I wasnt excited to read WW anymore, and the story with her brother bored me to hell. Comics are too expensive to read mediocre stuff, so i kicked it.

  10. #40
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    There are fans, who like I Ching, and fans, who dislike Cassie. There is room for ALL of us.

    The lackluster sales are the issue, and I think, considering the painful sameness of WW stories, over the past two and a half decades, that a lack of imagination is one of the problems. The lack of any supporting or recurring characters, settings or other elements for readers to emotionally invest in, every or every other issue, is another problem. The lack of direction, a consistent mission or purpose for Wonder Woman...chronic! Acceptance of that doesn't solve the narrative problem, however, and the alternative is ..Random Reaction Woman!

    Characters in the WW comic float through story, after story, unattached to anything. Nothing endearing for readers to look forward to...and no change in sight.

    Who is to say that throwing Trigon-armored Cassie into the story Wilson is telling would make it more commercially successful? How does her inclusion bring anything to the present story that Maggie isn't bringing, already? It would seem that isn't very obvious to G. Willow Wilson, and thankfully so.

    Diana-Maggie-Aphrodite is the BEST thing that's happened to this comic, since Greg Rucka brought back Etta, Ferdinand and Circe! Plainly, as I can make this...I care about these characters and actually want to see how they will fit into the on-going story. For the WW comic, that is refreshing, ..and maybe, something promising will come of it!
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-18-2019 at 05:31 AM. Reason: clarity
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Who is to say that throwing Trigon-armored Cassie into the story Wilson is telling would make it more commercially successful?
    No one. Seeing as how Cassie no longer has the Trigon armor and that iteration of the character is definitely not liked at all, this is an argument no one has made.



    How does her inclusion bring anything to the present story that Maggie isn't bringing, already? It would seem that isn't very obvious to G. Willow Wilson.
    She's a fan favorite character and has a very different dynamic to Diana that Maggie has. For someone who argues for Diana to have a more stable supporting cast, you oddly tend to view a lot of them as interchangeable.


    The lackluster sales are the issue, and I think, considering the painful sameness of WW stories, over the past two and a half decades, that a lack of imagination is one of the problems. The lack of any supporting or recurring characters, settings or other elements for readers to emotionally invest in, every or every other issue, is another problem. The lack of direction, a consistent mission or purpose for Wonder Woman...chronic! Acceptance of that doesn't solve the narrative problem, however, and the alternative is ..Random Reaction Woman!

    Characters in the WW comic float through story, after story, unattached to anything. Nothing endearing for readers to look forward to...and no change in sight.
    Yeah we can agree with this. It's the idea that I Ching brings anything of value were we diverge.

  12. #42
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    Book needs a creative team and a storyline that wows people -- or at least, does not turn them off.

  13. #43
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No one. Seeing as how Cassie no longer has the Trigon armor and that iteration of the character is definitely not liked at all, this is an argument no one has made...

    She's a fan favorite character and has a very different dynamic to Diana that Maggie has. For someone who argues for Diana to have a more stable supporting cast, you oddly tend to view a lot of them as interchangeable...

    Yeah we can agree with this. It's the idea that I Ching brings anything of value were we diverge.
    The WW comics sales are lackluster, because the leading lady isn't attached to a consistent on-going situation, like an iconic city, full of characters that she cares about ..or a cycle of imaginative adventures, with a common theme - rallying the oppressed to fight for what they love, championing freedom of every kind, etc. The random, unending stream of side-order characters are interchangeable and disposable, because they're attached to a leading lady, who is a superhero, with no real mission or purpose, beyond generic, comic fantasy drivel.

    As for Cassie, we diverge at the notion that she has any lingering relevance to the WW comic, beyond the W-insignia on her belt buckle. In her present state, she's of no use to anybody, but, Conner, ..and the why' should be very obvious. Liking her or disliking her or I Ching doesn't change the fact that they've been poached from a comic, with NO viable supporting cast, recurring characters, settings (etc) and virtually no rogues gallery. Like Cassie or not - I haven't since writers made her Superboy's plaything - she was created for use in the WW comic, to benefit the WW comic, ..and that's where she should have been developed.

    Many posts back, we were talking about the problem of the WW comic, presently without an established cast, being poached of useful, recurring characters. I think that is contributing to its overall mediocrity and historically low sales. Let's get back to that, please!
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The WW comics sales are lackluster, because the leading lady isn't attached to a consistent on-going situation, like an iconic city, full of characters that she cares about ..or a cycle of imaginative adventures, with a common theme - rallying the oppressed to fight for what they love, championing freedom of every kind, etc. The random, unending stream of side-order characters are interchangeable and disposable, because they're attached to a leading lady, who is a superhero, with no real mission or purpose, beyond generic, comic fantasy drivel.

    As for Cassie, we diverge at the notion that she has any lingering relevance to the WW comic, beyond the W-insignia on her belt buckle. In her present state, she's of no use to anybody, but, Conner, ..and the why' should be very obvious. Liking her or disliking her or I Ching doesn't change the fact that they've been poached from a comic, with NO viable supporting cast, recurring characters, settings (etc) and virtually no rogues gallery. Like Cassie or not - I haven't since writers made her Superboy's plaything - she was created for use in the WW comic, to benefit the WW comic, ..and that's where she should have been developed.

    Many posts back, we were talking about the problem of the WW comic, presently without an established cast, being poached of useful, recurring characters. I think that is contributing to its overall mediocrity and historically low sales. Let's get back to that, please!
    Not to further derail the thread, but to bring up that Bendis is making attempts to bring Cassie back more in line with how her character used to be, since Young Justice 1 there has been no mention of the Trigon armor and Zeus has shown up.

    However, more to this post, this is something I have been saying for years! Every time a new writer comes in, editors have hijacked them by making stipulations that previous supporting cast could not be used. While I am thankful that pretty much nothing was used from the Azzerello run, it also bears that nothing has been used from the Rucka run...or the Robinson run. Yes, we have Steve, Etta has shown up a couple of times. Ferdinand has shown up once. But that is all. Why editors (and writers) fail to see that Diana needs some kind of stability is beyond me. Superman has Metropolis, Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Smallville, Lana, Lex...Batman has Gotham, Alfred, Gordon, Wayne Enterprises, Lucius Fox, Catwoman. Then they both have the rotation of their 'sidekicks' Supergirl, Superboy, Nightwing, Robin, Red Robin, Red Hood. There is stability within those appearances. Readers know when they pick up a book who those characters are and can relate to them because they have been used. With Wonder Woman readers dont even know where she lives! Where does she live? I've read WW for forty years and have no clue what city she is supposed to currently inhabit.
    Likewise, what is Superman's relation to Supergirl; Batman's to Nightwing? Just about anyone can tell you. What is Diana's relation to Donna Troy? Apparently not even the writer and editors know because in a twitter remark when asked if she would be showing up, the writer made a comment if they could figure her out or some such (can't remember the exact quote sorry.) What about Cassie? Her story should be told in Wonder Woman (as should Donna's) instead it appears that it will be within the pages of Young Justice (which I can't really complain about because it seems like Bendis is the only one who actually seems to understand the character.)
    Wonder Woman's lack of sales lie directly at the feet of the editors of the comic. It's not necessarily the writers they hire (while some have been good, some decent and some just plain abysmal) it is the editor's job to provide the guidance and direction for the overarching story of the comic, but also to provide some semblance of consistency from one issue to the next and from one writer to the next. DC's editors have failed miserably at this job.

  15. #45
    Incredible Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Way too much focus on characters that aren't Diana and her (already small and weak) supporting cast. Wilson's run has been like an endless hallway where I have to sit through panels and panels of no-name characters interacting with Diana that have no excuse nor reason being in the story for as long as they have been in the first place!
    Last edited by KangMiRae; 06-18-2019 at 01:31 PM.
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