Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 80
  1. #46
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    948

    Default

    Yes she should be selling more...but...
    As one of the iconic Trinity...her stories are just not written with the depth and gravitas that has always been given specifically to Batman and Superman. We do get moments of emotional and physical drama (for want of a better word) but those have been very rarely lasting or character-defining.
    With Bruce and Clark, I get the sense that a lot of what happens in their books come about because of who they are and how they affect those around them...both good and bad. They're the catalysts. They're "cause" and "effect".
    With Diana, she's...more often than not, just "effect"...which speaks to the "lack of focus" on her, solely and specifically.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 06-18-2019 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #47
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    Way too much focus on characters that aren't Diana and her (already small and weak) supporting cast. Wilson's run has been like an endless hallway where I have to sit through panels and panels of no-name characters interacting with Diana that have no excuse nor reason being in the story for as long as they have been in the first place!
    Totally agree. WW gets sidelined in her own damn book and more often than not new writers just focus on their pet creations than what’s already established. Wilson isn’t a good writer for WW.

  3. #48
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    116

    Default

    I think people should just stop with the whole “Trinity” nonsense. There is no trinity. It’s just Batman and Superman. That’s it. Stop trying to force poor Wondy in there.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    However, more to this post, this is something I have been saying for years! Every time a new writer comes in, editors have hijacked them by making stipulations that previous supporting cast could not be used. While I am thankful that pretty much nothing was used from the Azzerello run, it also bears that nothing has been used from the Rucka run...or the Robinson run. Yes, we have Steve, Etta has shown up a couple of times. Ferdinand has shown up once. But that is all.
    The Robinson run was very badly received, and his Steve Trevor fit very poorly with Rucka's Steve Trevor.

    And Wilson's run is pretty much a direct continuation of Rucka's run. She used the exact situation that Rucka left Themyscira and Ares in to kickstart her entire setup for her run! Then we got Veronica Cale and Nemesis (from the JMS run!) in the next mini-arc, where the fate of Isadora Cale was very important. Then Giganta was a core supporting character in the next mini-arc. We are getting back to Themyscira soon, and I hope that Wilson can make lemonade out of whatever plot structure DC has forced Cheetah into.

    It feels like there is a contest going on here to complain the loudest about everything that is wrong with Wonder Woman, no matter the story or what is present on the pages…
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #50
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,918

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    Not to further derail the thread, but to bring up that Bendis is making attempts to bring Cassie back more in line with how her character used to be, since Young Justice 1 there has been no mention of the Trigon armor and Zeus has shown up.

    However, more to this post, this is something I have been saying for years! Every time a new writer comes in, editors have hijacked them by making stipulations that previous supporting cast could not be used.

    While I am thankful that pretty much nothing was used from the Azzerello run, it also bears that nothing has been used from the Rucka run...or the Robinson run. Yes, we have Steve, Etta has shown up a couple of times. Ferdinand has shown up once. But that is all. Why editors (and writers) fail to see that Diana needs some kind of stability is beyond me. Superman has Metropolis, Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Smallville, Lana, Lex...Batman has Gotham, Alfred, Gordon, Wayne Enterprises, Lucius Fox, Catwoman. Then they both have the rotation of their 'sidekicks' Supergirl, Superboy, Nightwing, Robin, Red Robin, Red Hood. There is stability within those appearances. Readers know when they pick up a book who those characters are and can relate to them because they have been used. With Wonder Woman readers dont even know where she lives! Where does she live? I've read WW for forty years and have no clue what city she is supposed to currently inhabit.

    Likewise, what is Superman's relation to Supergirl; Batman's to Nightwing? Just about anyone can tell you. What is Diana's relation to Donna Troy? Apparently not even the writer and editors know because in a twitter remark when asked if she would be showing up, the writer made a comment if they could figure her out or some such (can't remember the exact quote sorry.) What about Cassie? Her story should be told in Wonder Woman (as should Donna's) instead it appears that it will be within the pages of Young Justice (which I can't really complain about because it seems like Bendis is the only one who actually seems to understand the character.)

    Wonder Woman's lack of sales lie directly at the feet of the editors of the comic. It's not necessarily the writers they hire (while some have been good, some decent and some just plain abysmal) it is the editor's job to provide the guidance and direction for the overarching story of the comic, but also to provide some semblance of consistency from one issue to the next and from one writer to the next. DC's editors have failed miserably at this job.
    Someone else sees the ghost. Thank you, O'Brian.
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    15,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    I think people should just stop with the whole “Trinity” nonsense. There is no trinity. It’s just Batman and Superman. That’s it. Stop trying to force poor Wondy in there.
    Realistically its been just Batman for a good long time. At least in comics I see Bendis is trying to change that and make Superman more the universal focus he should be, but we'll see if that takes. Wonder Woman hasn't had that kind of voice and power trying to do that for her in well...ever.

    That said though I'm with those who aren't on the dire straits train. Yes it'd be nice if things would change and something would come along to really boost her and up her average, but her general average right now is about the norm nonetheless.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #52
    Incredible Member KangMiRae's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    The sea!
    Posts
    743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    Totally agree. WW gets sidelined in her own damn book and more often than not new writers just focus on their pet creations than what’s already established. Wilson isn’t a good writer for WW.
    Which works if you're given permission to stick around for the long run AND have an interesting story to tell with them. I don't see that in this current run on Wonder Woman.

    I'm also kind of tired of every other story with Wonder Woman being based on her mythological side, there's got to be more stories to tell with her.
    Captain of many ships—no matter how much you hate it!
    My Marvel & DC Ships!
    Scott x Jean
    Peter x MJ
    Diana x Steve
    Jean x Logan
    Peter x Gwen
    Bruce x Diana
    Emma x Scott
    Felicia x Peter
    Clark x Lois
    Dick x Babs

  8. #53
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    592

    Default

    I'd have to agree with many of the other posters:

    - lack of a definitive, canonical and immovable origin story that is AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. It needs to be as bare bones and basic as Superman and Batman's origin stories (at their simplest - noting that they've been tweaked numerous times with additional complications)
    - core supporting cast who are regularly used in ALL runs of Wonder Woman, not disposed of, replaced or rebooted at the whim of every writer
    - core, support legacy characters who regularly appear in ALL runs of Wonder Woman as opposed to carrying Wonder Woman's moniker and iconography, but having no apparent relationship with or connection to Wonder Woman
    - clearly defined and permanent powers, skills, strengths and abilities. If Diana is bullet-proof, then she should be bullet-proof every single time she appears in a comic book
    - clearly defined resources (e.g. invisible plane)
    - clearly defined establishing elements, including an "out of costume" career / passion (e.g. archaeology, philanthropy, charitable work, antiquities dealer, etc), a fictional home city, a "base of operations" for her civilian and/or superhero guises
    - clearly defined identity - is she publicly known as Princess Diana of Themyscira, does she maintain a "secret identity" as Diana Prince (and, if so, why and how), does she "embrace" being heralded as "Wonder Woman" or does she prefer to simply be known as Diana
    - clearly defined primary mission which carves a unique place for Wonder Woman in the DC Universe, for example, sharing Amazonian knowledge and technology with the world to usher in a new era of peace
    - clearly defined secondary mission which carves a unique place for Wonder Woman in the DC Universe, for example, globe trotting to track down and recover magical, mystical and mythological artefacts and creatures which could be used for nefarious purposes
    - a well-established Themyscira, preferably one which has developed its own technology, architecture, etc over its thousands of years of isolation
    - defined means of accessing Themyscira and the support of her fellow Amazons. I get that having Diana be able to go there whenever she wants removes some of the suspense of her stories because she should be able to rally an army if she needs. So, limit her access if required - e.g. she can only visit during certain lunar cycles. Themyscira should still be accessible, but perhaps not always
    - clear elements which differentiate her from Superman and Batman, for example, a genuine desire to rehabilitate villains. We should see Diana taking villains under her wing as part of her supporting team in an effort to rehabilitate them or at least taking them to Themyscira for rehabilitation and following up those stories
    - strong, formidable, credible and threatening rogues gallery. Not every villain needs to be capable of physically engaging Diana (e.g. Veronica Cale), but how they oppose Wonder Woman should be clearly established and Diana should have a tough time dealing with them (and any other superhero in the DC Universe should also have a difficult time when facing them)

    And an editor who will ensure that all of the above elements are set in stone and only change in Elseworld stories.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The Robinson run was very badly received, and his Steve Trevor fit very poorly with Rucka's Steve Trevor.

    And Wilson's run is pretty much a direct continuation of Rucka's run. She used the exact situation that Rucka left Themyscira and Ares in to kickstart her entire setup for her run! Then we got Veronica Cale and Nemesis (from the JMS run!) in the next mini-arc, where the fate of Isadora Cale was very important. Then Giganta was a core supporting character in the next mini-arc. We are getting back to Themyscira soon, and I hope that Wilson can make lemonade out of whatever plot structure DC has forced Cheetah into.

    It feels like there is a contest going on here to complain the loudest about everything that is wrong with Wonder Woman, no matter the story or what is present on the pages…
    Thank you, someone had to say it.

  10. #55
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Realistically its been just Batman for a good long time. At least in comics I see Bendis is trying to change that and make Superman more the universal focus he should be, but we'll see if that takes. Wonder Woman hasn't had that kind of voice and power trying to do that for her in well...ever.

    That said though I'm with those who aren't on the dire straits train. Yes it'd be nice if things would change and something would come along to really boost her and up her average, but her general average right now is about the norm nonetheless.
    This too, the sky is not always falling.

  11. #56
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    834

    Default

    Bad writing and crappy art work.

  12. #57
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by warzon View Post
    Bad writing and crappy art work.
    This is the only answer you need. Don’t get me wrong, WW’s been in the dumpster before (she usually is) but now she’s really reached rock bottom.
    Last edited by greymoon; 06-19-2019 at 12:15 AM.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,250

    Default

    Diana, Clarke and Bruce have always been the Trinity if DC actually allowed it. Diana is often a something different yet often the strength of Superman and the battle skills that makes her a leader. She is the mythical side. Why can't she get her own editor?
    Support IMPOSSIBLE JONES

    impossiblekickstarter.com

  14. #59
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,918

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    ...Take these FOUR, most important of the above questions into consideration, and you change the WW comic, for the better. What is Wonder Woman's mission? What can Wonder Woman’s friends and allies do to help her accomplish her mission? What do Wonder Woman’s enemies want most? Does Wonder Woman's mission conflict with what her enemies want, somewhere in her on-going story? Whatever supporting characters or super-villains aren't answering those questions are wastes of panel-space and probably need to go. Whatever stories fail to resolve those problems, ultimately fail the larger, on-going narrative ..and come off as gruelingly inconsequential to us. Answering even those four questions would be very progressive.

    We need that in WW...progress. We need to feel, as though the Invisible Plane is actually flying somewhere.
    Okay, I'll take your 'FOUR, most important question' challenge and see what I come up with. I'll answer the questions, as if a classic regular cast was already, in place.

    What is Wonder Woman's mission?

    Wonder Woman's mission is to champion and preserve freedom and justice in Man's World and wherever she is called to do so (bizarre dimensions, lost empires, time stream, alien worlds, etc). A freedom-loving Amazon and the daughter of a once-oppressed people, she lives to fight any, who conquer and control, and to rally and fight beside any, who love freedom.

    What can Wonder Woman’s friends and allies do to help her accomplish her mission?

    Wonder Woman's supporting cast must be relevant to her mission. Like other royals, she has a small circle of loyalists, who use their uniquely individual skills to aid her, besides being an extended family of friends and lovers.

    Etta, Diana's best friend, is a USAF-trained soldier from a Virginia rancher family, and is good with horses, dogs and conventional weapons.
    Mala, the Amazon, besides having best understanding of Diana's Amazon culture, is an expert on science, classical history and martial arts.
    Steve is a Navy guy, with expert fighting skills, a pilot, and has useful government connections, all over the world.
    Ferdinand, a superhumanly strong Minotaur, is an occult expert, historian and superb CHEF!
    Queen Hippolyta and her Amazons are immortal warriors, possessed of arcane knowledge and mystical weaponry.

    What do Wonder Woman’s enemies want most?
    Veronica Cale, Grail, Doctor Cyber, Giganta, Poison Alpha, Ares, Silver Swan, Doctor Psycho and others all want nothing less, than the complete subjugation of humanity and, for Grail, the eradication of free will, throughout the universe.

    Does Wonder Woman's mission conflict with what her enemies want, somewhere in her on-going story?
    The ambitions of Wonder Woman's enemies, to literally conquer the Earth and beyond, bring them directly into conflict, with Wonder Woman, a freedom-loving Amazon.

    The FOUR important questions serve to shape key, consistently recurring elements in the WW comic. They are, primarily, Diana's motivation, the supporting cast, the rogues gallery and the kinds of stories that bring Diana into conflict with them. While there are certainly other ways to achieve narrative structure, and they are welcome, ..this is simple to unpack and implement, editorially. These four questions create a foundation to build on, by imaginative writers, artists and creators, for long-range success ..and, just as important, the reduction of editorial waste of characters and other narrative resources.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-19-2019 at 09:00 AM. Reason: clarity
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    This is the only answer you need. Don’t get me wrong, WW’s been in the dumpster before (she usually is) but now she’s really reached rock bottom.
    Uh, no, they’ve actually been worse before. You can’t just make up facts.

    So what do people think Wonder Woman sales SHOULD be?
    Last edited by Gaelforce; 06-19-2019 at 05:27 AM. Reason: Leave politics out of posts, please
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •