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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    If that means some moron gets a royalty check, I honestly don't care. That doesn't mean I'm supporting them, it just means I live in a world with an economy.
    I get what you are saying, but think you are downplaying with the word "moron" - in some cases these are rapists and worse getting royalty checks.

  2. #17
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I get what you are saying, but think you are downplaying with the word "moron" - in some cases these are rapists and worse getting royalty checks.
    Yup, this is true (and the word I wanted to use isn't allowed on these forums ). But justice is not going to be found because I didn't buy a comic book. I'm not passing judgement on anyone here who feels differently about it, but to my mind, boycotting a product because of these people....it's like clicking "share" on a facebook post that's "sending thoughts and prayers" to the victims of a school shooting. I can sit back and feel like I did my part but it doesn't actually accomplish anything. And for real, I got nothing but respect for those here saying something other than I am; we all gotta do our best to do what we feel is right. S'all good. I just don't think me passing on a product is going to make a difference on any level except my own entertainment.

    Not to mention.....the idea of boycotting a product because of these people......they already got paid. Landis got paid for every issue of American Alien long before I bought it. Unless his deal with DC was very different from what most other creators get, he didn't get any royalties either. My buying it didn't support him, it supported my LCS and DC. Landis didn't make a dime from me. And he screwed himself out of future work, which again, had nothing to do with me and what I buy or don't buy.
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  3. #18
    Amazing Member TaliaJoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm not passing judgement on anyone here who feels differently about it, but to my mind, boycotting a product because of these people....it's like clicking "share" on a facebook post that's "sending thoughts and prayers" to the victims of a school shooting.
    Wow. Something about boycotting always felt a little questionable in my mind and I think you just hit the nail on the head of why I think that way. (Your entire posts in this topic have been excellent btw.)

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not against other people boycotting at all, as long as they don't promote the idea that other people must do it. I'm not saying effective or purposeful boycotts can't exist, but ultimately I think it's usually more something a person does because they feel like it rather than because it makes a difference, which is certainly fine, but not something you should force on other people. You can do it if you want to, of course, but if you insist that other people are doing something wrong by doing otherwise, that's going too way far.

    Frankly, I think it's bizarre that someone would think buying or not buying a comic book which is in terms of its content is not problematic reflects badly on the person who did it. Individuals don't need to be responsible for the lives of every person who was involved in the creation of a product they bought. Is giving Mike Landis a little royalty money (assuming that's how it actually works), or withholding that same money, going to amount to justice being served or not served? NO. And I very strongly resent the notion that buying a product someone worked on is tantamount to supporting them as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Kent
    I used to think like you, but I guess I grew out of it & it can reflect on me however someone wishes to view it. Art & entertainment are 2 subjects I enjoy immensely and if I stopped enjoying things made by sketchy people then I'd quickly have nothing to enjoy. I recently bought a digital copy of The Usual Suspects, and I enjoy Spacey in it as much as I always have and Bryan Singer even directed it. I dig the hell out of Chronicle, should Michael B Jordan & the other actors/crew be punished royalties wise just because Max Landis is involved?

    I have to assume that you didn't go see Infinity War or Endgame, considering RDJ's pre-Iron Man life and the fact Josh Brolin used to beat up Diane Lane. Christian Bale verbally abuses production crew members, and was even caught on tape doing it, so the Nolan batfilms are out. Affleck's an alcoholic who cheated on his wife, so all of his stuff is out. Just about every film franchise any of us might enjoy has somebody attached who shouldn't be supported, but should everyone else suffer as well? Should you or I be deprived of entertainment just because someone attached is a scumbag? Nope.

    Look, I would never defend any of these people who have had proven acts of nastiness, but that doesn't mean I have to shield myself from something they made and I enjoyed. If you are unable to watch a movie with, say, Mel Gibson and just enjoy his performance without thinking of his religious/racial opinions, then that really sucks and I wish you were able to enjoy it. For me, though, actors/directors/writers/artists/musicians are there to entertain people, and I don't care about their personal lives because I don't know them and it's none of my business to be involved. Landis seemed like a sh!tty person before this story, and he seems like one after...doesn't really change anything for me. I guess if that reflects on me as a bad person or whatever, then that's fine. I'll just be over here enjoying Singer's X-2 and looking for a digital copy of American Beauty.
    Excellent post.
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  4. #19

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    I don't see DC blatantly promoting this for the near future. They may quietly keep it in print if it continues to sell copies of the TPB.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I haven't watched an episode of Smallville since the Allison Mack thing came out. Even though I own the entire series. So I have this giant box of DVDs just sitting on my shelf. I don't think I will ever read AA ever again either after this even though I bought the series when it came out and the hardback. So I now have a book on my shelf I'll never touch again either. This is the closest thing to "boycotting" I can do. Not use things I've already paid for. I doubt I could get much for them. I've never seen a Polanski movie. I've seen maybe half a Woody Allen movie and have no intention of ever seeing another one. And don't have to worry about ever seeing Cosby or Roseanne again because they've been taken off the air anyway. For me, I can't separate the artist from the art. Especially when a crime is involved. Landis is a rapist. Pure and simple. There is no getting around that at this point. He and Mack are one and the same. Even the other stuff would be reason to never read anything he did ever again.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    This is neither the first nor the last such story to come out.

    I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all response to works created by creepy or sleazy artists. Any such response will depend on the reader, the artist, what they did, and the work itself. Myself, I'm unfamiliar with Landis or American Alien, so can't make any judgment there, but hearing this also means that I'm unlikely to ever pick it up. But I pick up or leave works for all sorts of reasons all the time, and I won't say how anyone else should act. All I can do is describe how I have act in similar situations.

    Suffice to say: trigger warning for child abuse and malicious conspiracy theories.

    spoilers:
    One such case is Marion Zimmer Bradley, who molested several children, including her own, together with her husband (and her husband even went to prison over it). She was a central figure within the evolution of feminism in fantasy, but at the same time there are some vaguely icky passages in her books—including The Mists of Avalon—that become really icky once you know that about her. There is a real connection between her actions and her art.

    Another is the case of Leslie Fish, a central figure in fandom and the filk movement, but she has developed into a full-blown conspiracy theorist, including being a Sandy Hook truther. But relatively few of her old songs—those that are important to the filk movement—include such references.
    end of spoilers

    So what can I do? MZB is long dead now. I still have two of her books in old editions in my bookshelf, because I might want to check some passage of them later on, and they are not hurting anyone. While if I gave them away they might hurt someone, and if I did I would be sure the recipient knew about her actions. On the other hand I recently had a presentation on filk, and included one of Leslie Fish's oldest songs there, with no mention of her current activities or opinions. That was because the content of the song has little connection with them.

    Do I mention such things about every such artist or person? No, I make a judgment call based on how they are presented by the other persons talking, my general relation to them, my own relation to the artists, or if mentioning this would derail any larger discussion.

    But I will never blame anyone who has a stronger reaction, or choose to trash all of their works that they owned.

    But I also believe that DC and other publishers will need to be really careful with how they employ creators guilty of harassment or are serial offenders. Not because of a boycott, but because they can turn on other employees or freelancers, or because any marketing campaign can become a nightmare not because they did something a year ago, but because they did something right here and now.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I haven't watched an episode of Smallville since the Allison Mack thing came out. Even though I own the entire series. So I have this giant box of DVDs just sitting on my shelf. I don't think I will ever read AA ever again either after this even though I bought the series when it came out and the hardback. So I now have a book on my shelf I'll never touch again either. This is the closest thing to "boycotting" I can do. Not use things I've already paid for. I doubt I could get much for them. I've never seen a Polanski movie. I've seen maybe half a Woody Allen movie and have no intention of ever seeing another one. And don't have to worry about ever seeing Cosby or Roseanne again because they've been taken off the air anyway. For me, I can't separate the artist from the art. Especially when a crime is involved. Landis is a rapist. Pure and simple. There is no getting around that at this point. He and Mack are one and the same. Even the other stuff would be reason to never read anything he did ever again.
    I can't speak to your feelings on Smallville & Mack, those are your own and you have a right to them now that she's gone through the legal system. To the bolded, though, I caution against being too quick on passing opinions as facts...though Landis has always appeared to be skeezy, we need to remember that the article is all accusation and he hasn't been charged with anything yet. Modern society says we must automatically view every accusation as fact, but it's important to remember that proof is required for everything and requiring proof is what makes us civilized. Did Landis probably do these things? Sure. There's a LOT of accusations on it. Did Landis absolutely, pure and simple, do these things? We can't say yes to that.

    I just wanted to point this out so everyone can keep this story in context.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

  8. #23
    Amazing Member TaliaJoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    This is neither the first nor the last such story to come out.

    I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all response to works created by creepy or sleazy artists. Any such response will depend on the reader, the artist, what they did, and the work itself. Myself, I'm unfamiliar with Landis or American Alien, so can't make any judgment there, but hearing this also means that I'm unlikely to ever pick it up. But I pick up or leave works for all sorts of reasons all the time, and I won't say how anyone else should act. All I can do is describe how I have act in similar situations.

    Suffice to say: trigger warning for child abuse and malicious conspiracy theories.

    So what can I do? MZB is long dead now. I still have two of her books in old editions in my bookshelf, because I might want to check some passage of them later on, and they are not hurting anyone. While if I gave them away they might hurt someone, and if I did I would be sure the recipient knew about her actions. On the other hand I recently had a presentation on filk, and included one of Leslie Fish's oldest songs there, with no mention of her current activities or opinions. That was because the content of the song has little connection with them.

    Do I mention such things about every such artist or person? No, I make a judgment call based on how they are presented by the other persons talking, my general relation to them, my own relation to the artists, or if mentioning this would derail any larger discussion.

    But I will never blame anyone who has a stronger reaction, or choose to trash all of their works that they owned.

    But I also believe that DC and other publishers will need to be really careful with how they employ creators guilty of harassment or are serial offenders. Not because of a boycott, but because they can turn on other employees or freelancers, or because any marketing campaign can become a nightmare not because they did something a year ago, but because they did something right here and now.
    Very wise post. There definitely is no one-size-fits-all approach and everyone has their own reaction depending on the circumstances, and just because you react a certain way in a certain situation doesn't mean every similar situation will be exactly the same. Also smart to point out that it matters the extent to which a person's evil behavior actually goes into their work, and in what ways.
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  9. #24
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Kent View Post
    I can't speak to your feelings on Smallville & Mack, those are your own and you have a right to them now that she's gone through the legal system. To the bolded, though, I caution against being too quick on passing opinions as facts...though Landis has always appeared to be skeezy, we need to remember that the article is all accusation and he hasn't been charged with anything yet. Modern society says we must automatically view every accusation as fact, but it's important to remember that proof is required for everything and requiring proof is what makes us civilized. Did Landis probably do these things? Sure. There's a LOT of accusations on it. Did Landis absolutely, pure and simple, do these things? We can't say yes to that.

    I just wanted to point this out so everyone can keep this story in context.
    Fair point. And I don't know if there is any legal issue here with what I said. Just that these accusations go well past just bad treatment of exes and being skeevy like we've heard in the past. Which were bad enough on their own merits.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Kent View Post
    I can't speak to your feelings on Smallville & Mack, those are your own and you have a right to them now that she's gone through the legal system. To the bolded, though, I caution against being too quick on passing opinions as facts...though Landis has always appeared to be skeezy, we need to remember that the article is all accusation and he hasn't been charged with anything yet. Modern society says we must automatically view every accusation as fact, but it's important to remember that proof is required for everything and requiring proof is what makes us civilized. Did Landis probably do these things? Sure. There's a LOT of accusations on it. Did Landis absolutely, pure and simple, do these things? We can't say yes to that.

    I just wanted to point this out so everyone can keep this story in context.
    While what you say is true, it is also a specific viewpoint. The courts act in a much more limited fashion than we do as fans, or publishers like DC. The court answers a question like if there was sufficient evidence that person A did illegal thing X against person B at time T.

    But for me as a fan and private person I can take into consideration that we hear stories about person A from persons B, C, D, and E, or that I saw person A do something that was not illegal but still was inappropriate or hurtful. And a publisher like DC is much more like a private person in this regard. They can't send person A to prison, but they can choose to associate with person A or not. Getting published is not a civil right.

    Right now we are living through the beginning of what hopefully is a reframing of how society views sexual harassment, and that is going to be painful and likely cause lots of mistakes. But at the same time, our prior way of handling (or not handling) this harmed—and continues to harm—a lot of people.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While what you say is true, it is also a specific viewpoint. The courts act in a much more limited fashion than we do as fans, or publishers like DC. The court answers a question like if there was sufficient evidence that person A did illegal thing X against person B at time T.

    But for me as a fan and private person I can take into consideration that we hear stories about person A from persons B, C, D, and E, or that I saw person A do something that was not illegal but still was inappropriate or hurtful. And a publisher like DC is much more like a private person in this regard. They can't send person A to prison, but they can choose to associate with person A or not. Getting published is not a civil right.

    Right now we are living through the beginning of what hopefully is a reframing of how society views sexual harassment, and that is going to be painful and likely cause lots of mistakes. But at the same time, our prior way of handling (or not handling) this harmed—and continues to harm—a lot of people.
    I just have a difficult time with assigning absolute guilt in cases like these because I don't know who these women are, or what their personal lives are like. Are they honest, good people? Are they crackheads? Somewhere in between? I have zero idea. What I do know is I met Landis at an event a couple years ago and he was a straight up ass. So I absolutely find the accusations plausible. But I also know, from reading the article, that several of these women dealt with this apparent treatment for several years in exchange for exclusive social circles and high society friends. That does not, I repeat, does not make any of Landis' behavior excusable, but it does call into question just a little bit the integrity of those telling the story. At any time, they could have walked away, changed their phone number, but the loss of a social circle kept them around. Again, I don't want to be accused of "victim blaming", because I absolutely think these accusations are plausible and probable. But I just think the court of public opinion should butt out of a lot of these things, and let real courts handle it. These weren't actresses forced to perform sex acts for a job, these were women apparently forced into sex acts for a better circle of friends.

    I'm only talking about regular people though. Companies like DC or his management agency are absolutely right to cut ties, as it is better safe than sorry. But my pain point was only to the comment of "Max Landis is a rapist. Plain and simple." I was just mentioning that we don't know 100% that he is, even if it is very very likely that he may be. We live in a culture now where all you have to do is point and accuse, and we're not allowed to say "hey wait, where's the proof?" lest you be named a denyer or a victim blamer. I could go to a mod and say "___ poster is a doodyhead and mean to me", but the mod is going to ask for a link, you know? That's all I'm trying to say.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

  12. #27
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    You and others have indeed repsonded in eloquent and elaborate neutrality, CK. Unfortunately other comments seem to misunderstand: discussing the personal life of someone vaguely relevant, and perceiving the discussion to be a cart blanche for accusations and labels through the likelihood of wrongdoing, is cultivation for a toxic echo chamber that doesn't represent the purpose of this forum. I try to let people actually work out their thoughts because many of them are well constructed if not informed, but this just doesn't have anything to do with Superman or the small bundle of Landis contributions specifically.
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