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  1. #106
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    In regards to those who have been in power in recent memory, Johns can't do it, Didio can't do it, Lee can't do it. So yeah. This is where we're at until true fresh blood comes into power.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Mate, if you think this time DC is finally going to actually reboot Superman right then Iíve got a bridge to sell you. I mean who would you even trust to do a good job with that task at current DC? Certainly not Bendis, much as I enjoy his runs, the man cannot keep continuity straight to save his life, not even his OWN continuity. And of course DC would want to shove the Death of Superman in there because thatís the only story in the last two decades that they think is worth a damn. It would be a complete mess AGAIN, and theyíd just undo it to bring back old stories anyway eventually.
    I've suggested this on other threads. We could drag Jenette Kahn out of retirement. She seemed to run a pretty tight ship.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I've suggested this on other threads. We could drag Jenette Kahn out of retirement. She seemed to run a pretty tight ship.
    No offense but are we just going full blown fantasy land with how to do this? Because I nominate Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore to write the Superman ongoings and then Grant Morrison and Jonathan Hickman to follow them up.

    There’s no way any old guard is coming back, and as Sacred pointed out, the old guard has generally failed utterly at rebooting Supes. We’d need new blood but honestly what’s the point? It all just get thrown out at some point anyway, we might as well look to the present and future not the past. Who cares about Supes origin? We all know the basics, I’d rather see some focus on “Year Two” so Metallo and Parasite could get fleshed out.

  4. #109
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Made it to the LCS today, finally sat down to read this.

    I liked it. It's got a interesting take on Clark's development that I can dig. Not a fan of the "football star" stuff, and I feel like that's a twist in Clark's school years worth more exploration; how did his social standing and friendships change when the outsider became an accepted part of school society? Did he acclimate, or was he merely tolerated on the team? But I like the mild empathic abilities, that solves a whole ton of secret identity problems down the road. Miller handles Clark's powers well and has a solid handle on young Clark's voice. It's a little different, but it works. We get a nice view into Clark's thought process and the early steps that lead to Clark putting on the cape are clear and, within the framework of the narrative, makes sense....though the resolution also needed more exploration. The bullies escalated after Clark's first intervention, so Clark escalates, and.....that worked? The solution was "scare them more?" I can see that working with high school bullies, so okay, sure, but that needed a little page time. Or did Lana's photos do the job? I assume it was this, since it'd put Clark on the reporter's path, but again....more page time was required.

    The Kents.....the whole of Smallville, really, comes off as a caricature but it's really just treating Clark's setting and supporting cast as archetypes, just as Clark himself is. So I feel like it works.

    And Miller gets that it's not "SUPERman" or "superMAN" but "SUPERMAN." Clark's life is fantastic and strange and wondrous from the start, and he compartmentalizes his life immediately. Those two "sides" of Superman that we always argue about around here are equally represented in who Clark is from the youngest stage, which is as it should be.

    I love that Clark is joining the military. If for no other reason than its never been done before, to my knowledge. And I love his motivations for it. When I joined up, I was just after college money. So were a lot of guys I knew. Some joined to travel, or learn trades, some wanted to escape home or had nowhere else to go. I only knew a few guys who joined up for guts and glory. So I really connect with Clark here, and I love that this isn't some sort of "god and country" nonsense. Feels honest.

    I'm surprised this is Black Label. I know we have two issues to go and those will probably get more explicit, but far, far worse things have happened in mainstream DC titles than anything that happened here. It was actually quite tame and, dare I say it, tasteful. I mean, the attempted rape of Lana sure as hell isn't "tasteful" but it could've been far worse. We all know where Miller can take this sorta stuff, but it feels like he was listening to Jor-El's advice about restraint.

    Looking forward to the next issue.
    Last edited by Ascended; 06-22-2019 at 07:03 AM.
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  5. #110
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    I loved the issue!

    I was initially a little skepticle about this series diving back into Smallville because I was kinda expecting this to be a 'Year One' akin to Batman's - about Clark's first year in the cape. But I have to say, this issue has to be the most intriguing rendition of the Smallville era that I've ever read. I think, more so than any version, it does a perfect job showing us how Clark's moral compass and his mission as Superman were shaped by his experiences in the small Kansas town.

    In some ways, I'd argue that its the Silver Age Superboy done right, in a contemporary and, dare I say, 'realistic' way. Clark doesn't put on a costume and become a globally renowned hero at the age of 12, but he does in his own way gradually become a hero - a 'champion of the oppressed' so to speak in that dialed down but still pretty representative microcosm of the real-world that is high school. And I also loved how the Kents shape his heroism in this version - not with lectures about how he should use his powers to help people, but by giving him advice to channel his own natural inclination to help in a positive direction. Jonathan Kent's advice to Clark that he should take the high road as much as possible, but he'll never be anyone's doormat is one of the best description's of Superman's behavior and overall MO that I've ever read!

    I also loved how the Clark and Lana relationship played out. Too often, Lana is just a backstory detail at best, and a proto-Lois Lane at worst. Here you genuienly get to see the crucial role she played in Clark's early years and the romance feels a lot more like a teenage romance than we've ever seen it to be. Whenever you see Clark and Lana together you know that it'll never last and that their relationship is 'doomed by canon', so to speak...this issue is the first time I really felt the tragedy of that, the fact that Clark promises Lana that he'll come back to her, but we know that he's destined to end up in Metropolis with Lois Lane (and in this particular continuity, Wonder Woman), and Lana ends up being exactly what she fears she will be - the girl who was left behind.

    The depiction of Clark's abilities and his alien nature is truly brilliant. Again, its the Silver Age done right. Millar shows us exactly how a child who, on some level, has always been aware of his extraterrestrial nature since infancy, would perceive the world and everyone in it. I LOVED the depiction of Krypton's destruction from baby Kal-El's perspective, and the first encounter with Jonathan. I love how Clark knows from Day 1 that he's different, but it doesn't cause him to brood or feel alienated from everyone else. As someone said WAY earlier on the thread, he isn't a boy on a farm, he's an alien on a farm. I think that's a pretty spot-on description for this Clark.

    My only real criticism is that Martha Kent is barely present beyond being a stereotypical mother-figure. I liked the idea that she and Jonathan had differing perspectives on Clark's role and how she just wanted him to keep his head down and live a normal life while Jonathan wanted him to change the world. I feel Millar could have given us a bit more of this dynamic. As it stands, Clark and Martha don't even have a scene alone together, as far as I can tell.

    The art is gorgeous. Smallville has a kind of timeless, anachronistic feel. This issue could be set in 2019, or it could be set in the 80's.

    Now, as for the so-called 'controversy' over this issue. Well, all I can say is that no creator, least of all Millar, is obligated to make sure that their work is up to the current standards of 'political correctness', or that everyone needs to adhere to any particular ideology of left-leaning liberalism. I'll leave it at that!

    Intrigued by where they go with Clark in the military. As much as it seems like a pretty stark deviation from what we know, it really isn't. The Golden Age Superman never formally enlisted, but he did fight WW2 in his own way. And this particular Superman ends up being essentially a government agent later in life, so in that sense, it does fit.

    All in all, a Superman origin retelling that actually leaves us curious about where it goes next!

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annie Parker View Post
    if you believe that poster actually has an inside source, I have a bridge to sell you.
    I have a friendship with someone absolutely inside the office who has been a longtime influence on the books. I know more about the turmoil and crap and sexism that goes down than I sometimes care to know. You donít have to believe me for it to be true.

    I knew about Rebirth before it happened. I knew that the marriage would ultimately be saved because there were too many people on the inside who never agreed with what the new 52 did to Lois. And I know now that Millerís reputation among anyone who isnít Didio and Lee is middling at best and terrible at worst and that nothing he ever publishes about Superman (or Wonder Woman) is ever going to be official anything. No one of substance wants him near Superman. They feign politeness because they have to.

    You donít have to believe it for it to be true. Makes no difference to me. LOL

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    No offense but are we just going full blown fantasy land with how to do this? Because I nominate Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore to write the Superman ongoings and then Grant Morrison and Jonathan Hickman to follow them up.

    There’s no way any old guard is coming back, and as Sacred pointed out, the old guard has generally failed utterly at rebooting Supes. We’d need new blood but honestly what’s the point? It all just get thrown out at some point anyway, we might as well look to the present and future not the past. Who cares about Supes origin? We all know the basics, I’d rather see some focus on “Year Two” so Metallo and Parasite could get fleshed out.
    I'm only half joking about the Kahn thing. In some ways she ran TOO tight a ship. Even most Elseworlds weren't allowed to deviate from the post-Crisis model back in the day. Some of the fights over Kingdom Come illustrate this.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    I'm surprised this is Black Label. I know we have two issues to go and those will probably get more explicit, but far, far worse things have happened in mainstream DC titles than anything that happened here. It was actually quite tame and, dare I say it, tasteful. I mean, the attempted rape of Lana sure as hell isn't "tasteful" but it could've been far worse. We all know where Miller can take this sorta stuff, but it feels like he was listening to Jor-El's advice about restraint.

    Looking forward to the next issue.
    Agreed. I also like the way she wasn't just some dizzy girl getting caught up in something she otherwise was irrelevant to. Yes at the end of the day its still the trope of the girl getting saved by the hero, but inherently I have no problem with that. Context matters with these sorts of things. The whole reason she was targeted is because she was the one person outside of Clark who was trying to help the bullied. And she had no benefit of powers to boot, just her desire to help.

    TBH, for as short as it was, I enjoyed reading them together so much it'll kinda hurt to see him then move on with Lori, despite liking that character as well. I've never classically cared all that much about Lana, but between Greg Pak in the New 52 and this, I've become more and more a fan of her as of late.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-22-2019 at 12:12 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  9. #114
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I have a friendship with someone absolutely inside the office who has been a longtime influence on the books. I know more about the turmoil and crap and sexism that goes down than I sometimes care to know. You don’t have to believe me for it to be true.

    I knew about Rebirth before it happened. I knew that the marriage would ultimately be saved because there were too many people on the inside who never agreed with what the new 52 did to Lois. And I know now that Miller’s reputation among anyone who isn’t Didio and Lee is middling at best and terrible at worst and that nothing he ever publishes about Superman (or Wonder Woman) is ever going to be official anything. No one of substance wants him near Superman. They feign politeness because they have to.

    You don’t have to believe it for it to be true. Makes no difference to me. LOL
    In the event there is any truth to this, I could only laugh at the irony. These same people have absolutely no clue what to do with Lois anyway. They're not doing her any favors by the grand gesture of just making her re-married to Superman and then forgetting about her, which has been the consistent approach for the vast majority of most eras since 1996. Talk about only caring at the surface level and not getting anything else. Any fighting for her honor type deal falls completely flat when they've been so terrible with her for so long anyway, regardless the status quo. If they truly have a problem with this book even being published just because of some juvenile shipping-based anger that Lois isn't endgame or whatever, they would need to check their priorities. I would hope this isn't true because it would only reinforce that all they care about Lois is the cosmetic and paint them in a hypocritical light.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-22-2019 at 02:30 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  10. #115
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I believe it. And I donít think itís ship nonsense driving it either. I imagine the problems with this book internally would have far more to do with the content of the two issues that have been shopped around, the gang rape garbage, the Lori sex crap that is coming, and the overall laughable quality of the dialogue and characterization. This book isnít good and itís getting more marketing than far better books. I could see Bendis and company being annoyed that they have done a lot of work to build up Superman and His supporting cast in the last year and Miller comes in and drops this turd that is critically a dud.

  11. #116
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Considering the problems with the content are vastly overstated, and that any supposed controversial nature of it has failed to gain any significant traction despite a small attempt to make it so, I stay true to my original opinion that if its true the Superman office are worrying about nonsense. I'm not saying the individual fan doesn't have the right to be offended if they find it so. If that's the way one feels that's the way one feels. But this just hasn't been controversial on a scale of general overall reaction. Furthermore this is an alternate label with the explicit intent and the explicit marketing to do different things. This is not a new concept. It affects the main direction not one iota. And if the concern were to be that this could possibly hurt Superman is just stupid as all hell, I'm sorry. Again none of this is new or strange territory. Besides, where was the internal hubub with Injustice, that the comics and the games should never have been made? If the purported issue here is protecting the sanctity of his lore it would have been logical to have heard rumblings over this too, a far worse "offender". But nothing. Which would make me believe, again hypothetically, that this isn't about protecting the lore but protecting a pet status quo and having personal issues with a creator. So yeah, fingers still crossed this is false and the office really aren't getting their knickers in a bunch over something so silly. The attempted assault on Lana which plays out as tastefully as any portrayal of an attempted violent crime can possibly be, would just be a convenient mask. We as just fans can afford to be biased to such a degree, I have an issue if the IP's actual wards are though.

    Also, Bendis and the current office would have no reason to be annoyed. The main two books are getting quite a bit of marketing in its own right. I see no indication this is being propped up at the main titles' expense.

    And before the usual Wonder Woman stuff comes up: I didn't even know about, and still have not found and read, the supposed article in which it was stated they had an encounter before I read the book and it has nothing to do with how I've received issue 1. I'm not even expecting anything. To date I'm still operating on the idea that the issues will focus on Lana, Lori, and Lois respectively.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-22-2019 at 02:48 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  12. #117
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Agreed. I also like the way she wasn't just some dizzy girl getting caught up in something she otherwise was irrelevant to. Yes at the end of the day its still the trope of the girl getting saved by the hero, but inherently I have no problem with that. Context matters with these sorts of things. The whole reason she was targeted is because she was the one person outside of Clark who was trying to help the bullied. And she had no benefit of powers to boot, just her desire to help.

    TBH, for as short as it was, I enjoyed reading them together so much it'll kinda hurt to see him then move on with Lori, despite liking that character as well. I've never classically cared all that much about Lana, but between Greg Pak in the New 52 and this, I've become more and more a fan of her as of late.
    I definitely have a slightly higher opinion of Lana since Pak. Up to that point, in my mind she was the high school girlfriend and should've been left in the past along with high school. Pak made her interesting, though I could've done without her becoming some sort of super-engineer able to keep up with John Henry Irons, and her turn as Superwoman I can take or leave. But I thought Miller handled her fairly well here; I wasn't blown away with how interesting and awesome she was, but neither did I find her annoying or distracting and I think she filled the role of "first love" quite well. No complaints.

    Though in retrospect it would've been nice to see her punch one of the bullies.

    Is this book really causing such a ruckus? Because I see no reason for it. What are people bitching about? Nothing happened here that's any worse than the average DC title, and honestly, this was far better than gratuitous rooftop sex scenes, basements full of "failed" Harley Quinns, fields full of murdered Titans, or even Lois' rationalization for revealing Clark's secret identity in Truth.
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  13. #118
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I doubt anything from this will carry over into the main books, regardless of anyone's opinion on it. Remember, Batman Year One was an in continuity assignment to begin with. That was the whole purpose of it. This isn't. Look, it's three issues. They will run their course. And either they'll suck or they won't. And the world will move on. I imagine that DC just threw Miller some pity project because they feel they owe him something. He wanted to work with Superman so they let him. That's it. The first issue wasn't as bad as I feared it would be. The dialogue is garbage but considering the bar is ASBAR, it's not that hard to clear. My suggestion for Miller, if he's serious about more work, is go back and read your best work from your heyday. Born Again, DKR, and especially, Batman Year One. Try to figure out how to get back to that. Considering the fact that he didn't name anything after an Ayn Rand character, I suppose we should all be grateful. I bought it out of morbid curiosity and I liked some of what I read. I don't think it's a huge deviation from anything we've read before. At least not yet. Subsequent issues: Who knows. If he "takes what's rightfully his" from Lori or whatever, then that maybe DC should reconsider letting him write stuff on his own.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I have a friendship with someone absolutely inside the office who has been a longtime influence on the books. I know more about the turmoil and crap and sexism that goes down than I sometimes care to know. You donít have to believe me for it to be true. I knew about Rebirth before it happened.

    I knew that the marriage would ultimately be saved because there were too many people on the inside who never agreed with what the new 52 did to Lois. And I know now that Millerís reputation among anyone who isnít Didio and Lee is middling at best and terrible at worst and that nothing he ever publishes about Superman (or Wonder Woman) is ever going to be official anything. No one of substance wants him near Superman. They feign politeness because they have to.

    You donít have to believe it for it to be true. Makes no difference to me. LOL
    OMG this is so sad. You want to make people you've never met on the forums think you're important and special.

  15. #120
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Considering the problems with the content are vastly overstated, and that any supposed controversial nature of it has failed to gain any significant traction despite a small attempt to make it so, I stay true to my original opinion that if its true the Superman office are worrying about nonsense. I'm not saying the individual fan doesn't have the right to be offended if they find it so. If that's the way one feels that's the way one feels. But this just hasn't been controversial on a scale of general overall reaction. Furthermore this is an alternate label with the explicit intent and the explicit marketing to do different things. This is not a new concept. It affects the main direction not one iota. And if the concern were to be that this could possibly hurt Superman is just stupid as all hell, I'm sorry. Again none of this is new or strange territory. Besides, where was the internal hubub with Injustice, that the comics and the games should never have been made? If the purported issue here is protecting the sanctity of his lore it would have been logical to have heard rumblings over this too, a far worse "offender". But nothing. Which would make me believe, again hypothetically, that this isn't about protecting the lore but protecting a pet status quo and having personal issues with a creator. So yeah, fingers still crossed this is false and the office really aren't getting their knickers in a bunch over something so silly. The attempted assault on Lana which plays out as tastefully as any portrayal of an attempted violent crime can possibly be, would just be a convenient mask. We as just fans can afford to be biased to such a degree, I have an issue if the IP's actual wards are though.

    Also, Bendis and the current office would have no reason to be annoyed. The main two books are getting quite a bit of marketing in its own right. I see no indication this is being propped up at the main titles' expense.

    And before the usual Wonder Woman stuff comes up: I didn't even know about, and still have not found and read, the supposed article in which it was stated they had an encounter before I read the book and it has nothing to do with how I've received issue 1. I'm not even expecting anything. To date I'm still operating on the idea that the issues will focus on Lana, Lori, and Lois respectively.
    The problems with the content are not vastly overstated. If your standard is “well Miller at least didn’t put in a graphic teen gang rape scene,” or there hasn’t been a Million Moms petition, so it’s fine, then sure it’s overstated. But every review mentions it and is critical of it. I mean at the best interpretation it’s Miller trying and laughably failing to be “woke” and “relevant” by including some kind of Metoo stuff, but I doubt that was his intent. It’s there to make Clark look cool and Lana to swoon, which is a great use of attempted rape in 2019. No modern writer would dream of putting a scene like that in Superman’s origin, mature readers label or not. It’s fanfic level. It serves an empty purpose and is wholly tone deaf. So regardless of the controversy generated, the content could still be a problem internally. They may be relieved it didn’t blow up in their faces.

    And that is not even getting to the overall quality of the book. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if a lot of pros look at the book on the whole and see Miller’s take as laughably bad. It’s a book of stereotypes and cardboard cutouts not characters. It’s Kansas Farmer #1 and Weak Worried Woman #2 from a stock character book as the Kent’s. The supporting cast is an old man’s interpretation of a group of “teen misfits” and bullies that’d be eye rolling in a bad 80’s movie. The narration and dialogue are a diluted “I’m the goddamn Batman” level of craft. So yeah, I could see talent in the office looking at this book and being like what the hell were they thinking. Particularly some of the editors and writers in the Superman office now.

    Plus, I think we already have evidence of this being disowned before it even came out with how it was retroactively pigeon holed into the DKR’s universe in order to cut it off from the main books. If you don’t think that is so they can say explicitly it’s just Miller’s Superman, not the real Superman, I think that’s a little naive. It wasn’t intended to be a DKR’s prequel, and the earlier press for it went the other way and seemed to actually distance it from DKR’s. Then they probably saw the final product and wanted to stick it into a hole and this was the easiest one. If this was intended to be a DKR’s universe book from the get go they would have said so, because that would guarantee it more buzz and sales. It was a last minute switch.

    So yeah, Bendis & Co. have been working for over a year to try to make Superman relevant and revitalize the character, and now this book is getting put out and it does undermine their work. Revitalizing Superman has been Bendis’ pet project since he came on board at DC. DKR’s is an alternate universe take on Superman and one that has hurt the character for decades. Though I do think that that danger presented by YO is overstated. The quality isn’t here. Bad interpretations done well - like Injustice - are far more damaging. And as for being no pushback for Injustice, that was a game adaptation. The comic people have no say in that stuff, and the creatives and editors are almost completely different now then they were then.
    Last edited by Yoda; 06-22-2019 at 10:49 PM.

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