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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Piracy is a huge problem esp around the African coast. Yes he probably went with the most common know ie. Somali pirates but I assume that is because the base Clark is at is nearest to that stuff. Piracy is so bad you have NATO involved to try to protect ships. Also Clark took no one down. Yes we could get into why piracy is on the rise etc but we could also talk about many other things that Superman and Clark as a reporter does not give a crap about because he does not deal with a world of grays. In an ideal world, there would be no piracy because it is sadly driven by corruption, poverty and bad governments. But fact is, it's a problem that naval forces have to deal with and Miller went with the most glaring. Oil tankers sinking are very harmless and Superman saving everyone makes fans feel better I guess. But dealing with real people and seeing what they have to do is troublesome. Let us not pretend it does not happen. Also Romita and Miller spoke to the navy seals. Did research. I personally do not see this as an issue of religion or Islamophobia. I come from a part of the world sometimes our own fishermen have to deal with this...and pirates kill, steal and sink their vessels. And yes if our coast guard had to engage they will use lethal force. It is not ideal at any means, it is what it is.
    You realize the base is in America, right? Near San Diego. We're pretty far from the African coast and Somalia. And Somali pirates don't all dress in one uniform way that fit the stereotypical look of Islamic terrorists. And Miller can do all the research he wants. It doesn't mean his work is at all accurate.
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  2. #287
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Agreed. Miller doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for interpretation here. Denying the problematic nature of that scene is really to be in denial.

    And additionally on the navy. Where the hell were the female recruits? Navy's freakin' co-ed.
    Didn't it become SEAL training at an earlier point?
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  3. #288
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    He didn't craft the story with the Navy. This isn't the Navy saying this is a threat to us or something we deal with, etc. DC showed the Military Times rough proofs to drum up publicity. Miller didn't even know SEALS were Navy until they told him. He had them saying they were in the army and soldiers and had to be corrected after the Military Times called it out.

    And yeah, the base is in Southern California. Not exactly a hotbed of coastal pirating, Islamic or otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Didn't it become SEAL training at an earlier point?
    I don't know that any have passed, but women can enter the SEAL training program.
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-21-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Didn't it become SEAL training at an earlier point?
    Certainly not at the start. And there wasn't a single female recruit then either.
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  5. #290
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Certainly not at the start. And there wasn't a single female recruit then either.
    Lori should have been a SEAL recruit and that is how they meet and fall for each other. That actually would have been an interesting take.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Lori should have been a SEAL recruit and that is how they meet and fall for each other. That actually would have been an interesting take.
    Definitely. Having both Lori and Clark as Navel Recruits hiding their true selves and abilities would create an actual meaningful for connection, instead of "win me, win me".
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  7. #292
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    Read it, liked it, I won't stay for the shitstorm.
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  8. #293
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Certainly not at the start. And there wasn't a single female recruit then either.
    I just checked, they switch to Coronado for seals training in the first few pages. No regular female recruits would be on JRJR, especially given the marvel method. For the second part it wouldn't really make sense to make Lori look like a regular human and become SEAL just so that people don't say critical things about their story. Kirby is both sharp and aware of the mermaids so that's kind of a shoehorn idea.
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  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I just checked, they switch to Coronado for seals training in the first few pages. No regular female recruits would be on JRJR, especially given the marvel method. For the second part it wouldn't really make sense to make Lori look like a regular human and become SEAL just so that people don't say critical things about their story. Kirby is both sharp and aware of the mermaids so that's kind of a shoehorn idea.
    What Kirby knows is irrelevant since that Lori suggestion would rewrite the story. It's not about keeping people from saying critical things. It's to make Lori an actual interesting character and not the female lead in some 1930s B-Jungle movie.

    And Coronado isn't just about SEAL training. Lots of Navel training goes on there. There would be women.
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  10. #295
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    On the premises, but not actually in the training where we are. The thing about Kirby is also my point, that whole dynamic would be different. That all just leans on how much Miller and Romita are doing this to appease critics. From some of the weirdness, even to small degress like trying to show hip teens, I think it's safe to say not so much. All I can say is that sure, I'll take issue if Diana is unflattering to the character as she was intended. Lois I can take with a grain of salt as you know... she spent a good 50 years being sown into collective culture as "Superman's girlfriend" who always needs saving. I don't need them to write defensively.
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  11. #296
    Mighty Member Deiasilva10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    There is a kind of surreal feel when I read this issue. Miller embraced the Greek mythology and Lori is depicted like a mermaid/siren of myth. It is almost as if no man including Clark can help himself. Atlantis feeds into fantasy and dreams. Lori is so perfect she is like a dream to this young guy stepping into the world...and this whole different world under the sea. Clark follows through the whole fantasy troupe and he defeats his foes, wins her heart and the throne...and he forgets. He forgets everything. Including his home and the girl back home and the surface world. Everything his commanding officer warned him about. The guy who wanted to change the world has forgotten it. It's different and yet familiar. I am sure decades ago Superman often got caught up in worlds and fell in love with beautiful women etc. It almost is like a cliffhanger because we know he has to leave eventually. Quite interested in how he snaps out of this or how he leaves this place he is bewitched by and this woman he is smitten by.

    The navy bits were okay. Nothing especially compelling. Other than he learns how to work with others and he sees how hard regular humans have to work ...earn where they are...and also he learns he is not comfortable with killing. The latter is the most important thing because he realizes he cannot do it.
    I think Miller is fantastically expanding his Superman. I never imagined that that Dark Knight Superman had such a rich past that he had lived sincere and human adventures, had fallen in love and enjoyed life before assuming his Superman cloak. Now I understand a little bit about why he became who he became, the fear of loss and all. Miller is a genius.

  12. #297
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    On the premises, but not actually in the training where we are. The thing about Kirby is also my point, that whole dynamic would be different. That all just leans on how much Miller and Romita are doing this to appease critics. From some of the weirdness, even to small degress like trying to show hip teens, I think it's safe to say not so much. All I can say is that sure, I'll take issue if Diana is unflattering to the character as she was intended. Lois I can take with a grain of salt as you know... she spent a good 50 years being sown into collective culture as "Superman's girlfriend" who always needs saving. I don't need them to write defensively.
    I don’t get what you’re saying here. It’s ok to use racist and sexist tropes and stereotypes because that’s how it was done half a century ago? We shouldn’t update our storytelling? Or expect more in a modern retelling of Superman’s origin?

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    You realize the base is in America, right? Near San Diego. We're pretty far from the African coast and Somalia. And Somali pirates don't all dress in one uniform way that fit the stereotypical look of Islamic terrorists. And Miller can do all the research he wants. It doesn't mean his work is at all accurate.
    Okay that was an oversight on my part. I am not American so Coronado Naval base means nothing to me other than it is a naval base somewhere.

    My first thought was Somali but clearly they cannot be if the base is near the Pacific but they are probably from the other side of the world too, closer to Asia. Now given it is a fictional world, we do not know where and what countries exist etc, I am going to assume Miller is not some racist as some people love to say he is other than it was used for expediency as many writers have done in comics before. I could call Geoff Johns out for using muslim terrorists and a stereotypical view of Khandaq too if I wanted but I didn't and won't because I am not so hypersensitive that the comic is mean to demean muslims or make horrible judgments about people I do not know. If it was done sloppily then editorial did not do their job.

    And if people did not like Lori as a mermaid, that is fine but the need to vilify Miller personally as racist and also woman hater etc imo is a bit much and absurd. It's just like the over blown stuff about the non existent gang rape from last issue.

  14. #299
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Some thoughts:

    Clark's relationship with the his superior was interesting. I liked how close he came to really knowing what Clark was, and was cool with it. Also that he knew of at least some of the supernatural elements of the world. I'm not a military man though so I don't know how ridiculous it is to imagine IRL a recruit being able to stand outside after lights out and just chat up your superior. But I'm guessing pretty ridiculous, lol. Oh well.

    The pirates being killed was tough to see, and I would have liked to see Clark's thoughts more on how much it bothered him. It was close to a fully-fleshed out event to cement his distaste for killing, but the reflection could have lasted longer.

    Really liked the design for Lori and all of Atlantis. Very exotic. And I liked the touch that they were basically the Sirens of lore, and that this plays a pretty large role in Clark's infatuation.

    The telepathy comes into play again with him being able to communicate with the mermaids. Its a little OP an ability for me in a standard ongoing setting, but in a stand-alone brings to mind those wacky Silver Age powers.

    Getting the POV of the Kraken was hilarious to me. Fun point of view hearing him complain of a stomach ache after swallowing Clark.

    The narration and dialogue is still weird to me but I realized reading this it almost felt like reading a poem in comic form. If that makes any sense?

    All-in-all and enjoyable read. If only I didn't have to worry about the Bat elements in issue 3.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-21-2019 at 01:44 PM.
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  15. #300
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    I liked the issue.Felt like a storyline more suited for an Aquaman comic but it was an enjoyable read.

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