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  1. #406
    Always Rakzo
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    As usual, there are things to like and dislike.

    I enjoyed the fact that for once, Miller's Batman loses against Superman which is something that I seriously wasn't expecting to see and their portrayal seems respectful from what he sees from both of them. Also, Luthor and the Joker were interesting additions to the story and the latter continues the classic homoerotic vibe Miller gave him in the Dark Knight Returns.

    There are plenty of bad things though. The biggest one being the obvious sexist treatment of women. This is especially bad for Wonder Woman who at first I thought she was going to be portrayed as the balance between Superman and Batman in a scene that is quite frankly better executed than the entirety of the Batman Vs. Superman film but sadly, Miller's own tendencies appeared by saying how she wants to be "tamed" and gets quickly infatuated by Clark. In fact, most women in this book are infatuated by Clark which is both problematic and predictable. Plus, Miller's repetitive narration is equally as tiring

    JRJR's art is fantastic though, one of his best recent efforts.

    This book gives me such conflict of interests.

  2. #407
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    So? Some Women are terrible at writing or understanding men does that mean they should Stop? No.
    I mean, probably. If you're consistently awful at something, show no sign of improvement after decades and no desire to improve, yeah. Hang it up. Or at the very least they should stop getting paid and published if they are this consistently awful at it.

    I haven't read the whole book yet. I'm not paying for this garbage, so I'll read it in the shop at some point. But the pages people have posted of the Trinity meeting and the ending with Luthor are just laughably awful. Wonder Woman's written like some frustrated school kid making his action figures make out or something. Like literally, this is grade school level. The whole series has read that way, Miller obviously just sees Superman as a power fantasy and women are just objects he deserves for being Superman. I thought Lana was written poorly, and Lori literally threw herself at him, but this is even worse considering how it is such a complete disaster of a portrayal of Wonder Woman.

    I actually feel bad for the SMWW shippers. It's as superficial and awful as you'd expect from Miller. But wow. What a mess.

  3. #408
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Haven't gotten to it yet but the scans look good. Wonder Woman isn't anything close to the atrocity that was ASBAR, and I didn't expect it to be, but I'm relieved nonetheless. The kiss line is pure cheese, but then again, that's a theme, four women fall for him unabashedly in this book. That was the point from issue #1. Its male fantasy to the utmost, but frankly I don't think that's a problem every once in a while. I know people will disagree with me on that, but agree to disagree. In any case, as someone whose enjoyed all four dynamics for what they were (an intentional romance novel-like cheese factor in many ways) in the book, no reason to pity me.

    Bummed to hear that the ending is underwhelming though but I'll see how I feel when I read it.

    The art is really good and its night and day compared to JRJR's work on the Batman book. Its gotta have to do with inks and colors.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-16-2019 at 11:22 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    As usual, there are things to like and dislike.

    I enjoyed the fact that for once, Miller's Batman loses against Superman which is something that I seriously wasn't expecting to see and their portrayal seems respectful from what he sees from both of them. Also, Luthor and the Joker were interesting additions to the story and the latter continues the classic homoerotic vibe Miller gave him in the Dark Knight Returns.

    There are plenty of bad things though. The biggest one being the obvious sexist treatment of women. This is especially bad for Wonder Woman who at first I thought she was going to be portrayed as the balance between Superman and Batman in a scene that is quite frankly better executed than the entirety of the Batman Vs. Superman film but sadly, Miller's own tendencies appeared by saying how she wants to be "tamed" and gets quickly infatuated by Clark. In fact, most women in this book are infatuated by Clark which is both problematic and predictable. Plus, Miller's repetitive narration is equally as tiring

    JRJR's art is fantastic though, one of his best recent efforts.

    This book gives me such conflict of interests.
    I don’t actually think the fact that the women are infatuated with him is the problem per se. (well, I do think it’s offensive that Wonder Woman is infatuated with him but that’s a whole other convo.) it’s about execution.

    Lois Lane traditionally falls for Superman not just because he’s some kind of “chiseled god” but because he’s GOOD and KIND and good to HER. The idea that she falls for him based solely on shallow terms (which is what Miller pulled here) is the misogynist take that’s completely unfair to her. That’s silver age misogynist crap that you hear from people who hate her and it has no place in a 2019 Superman comic. She’s reduced to a shell with zero depth—unconscious for most of her pagetime shared with Superman. It’s beyond obvious that Miller doesn’t understand Lois nor does he care. It’s bizarre that this issue was marketed as him “romancing” her. Romance?? Where? They barely even talk!

    The fact that Lana and Lori are forgotten completely and never brought up again only continues the offense. The fact that Lois has no depth at all and then Miller has the audacity to have her call Clark “useless” for going to the bathroom when he never even bothered to show them having a conversation at all is inexcusable characterization.

    The issue is not women falling for Superman. Lois Lane always falls for Superman. But the reason WHY has a hell of a lot more to do with his goodness and kindness and the kind way he TREATS her all of which Miller has no time for because he’s only interested in painting Superman as some god above the humans who never actually interacts with Lois in any meaningful way but then acts like an arrogant incel with “ill show her” two pages later.

    Wonder Woman being portrayed as a shallow schoolgirl infatuated with Superman after 5 minutes is just as if not even more offensive. I hated the new 52 and still felt their romance came out of nowhere and was forced but at the very least they were friends and teammates for more than 5 minutes.

    “Male fantasy” should not be rooted in women being gutted and reduced to objects. That’s not “male fantasy” —that’s a misogynist fantasy.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 10-16-2019 at 12:15 PM.

  5. #410
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Small detail, but Luthor's introduction was badass with the elevator opening to reveal him. Very simple but but really effective. And an interesting first meeting between him and Superman at that. Lex is so cunning he catches Superman off-guard and eggs him into a situation of his own making before he even realizes what's happening. Could tell no one's been able to pull the wool over his eyes like this before and its shocking and confusing. Awesome way to portray right off the bat how different Lex is, just why he's so formidable, its his mind, the way he gets what he wants with his words, the way he plays you before you even know you're been played. And he catches Clark completely off-guard by succeeding in doing it to him, despite his own intellect which frankly is superior to everyone else's but in this instance he realizes Lex is different. The dynamic is set up right there. The most dangerous mind Superman has ever met.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-16-2019 at 01:06 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  6. #411
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I'm going to break down this outstanding comic later, but so far I am right at the pro Trump newspaper and I'm howling. I am dying from laughter seeing Miller find his Murrica moment and totally go for it.
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  7. #412
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    One thing that confused me, who was the silhouette in shadow we saw in a couple panels when Lex was introduced? Was that supposed to be Joker?

    Also now having read it in full, I have no problem with the ending. I guess I get it being a little unsatisfying when you end on a cliffhanger with no continuation guaranteed. But I thought it was quite the cool and unexpected cliffhanger at that. Its indeed a lot how I imagined teasing Brainiac for a sequel in the beginning of a film series.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  8. #413
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Some thoughts for issue 3:

    Everything Luthor was great.

    Cant help but feel Miller wrote that Batman vs Superman battle intentionally that way to parody the BvS movie. The similarities are uncanny. From Luthor setting it up, to the way it went down. That doesn't make the fight feel any less silly though. The interactions of Batman and Superman were cringy.

    Wonder Woman sudden infactuation with Superman and vice-versa was very jarring.

    I really want a YEAR TWO by the same team. Superman going cosmic under Miller and JRJR is something I want to see.

    The narration and dialogue had a big dip in quality in the second half of the book.

  9. #414
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    One thing that confused me, who was the silhouette in shadow we saw in a couple panels when Lex was introduced? Was that supposed to be Joker?
    Thats what I got from it too. His shadow partner.

  10. #415
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    TBH, with all these recent portrayals of Joker either trying to be so so deep with the guy or utilizing shock-value insanity, it was refreshing to see one who was, comparably...kinda normal. Has some screws loose but is capable of sitting down and discussing criminal business. It was really old school Joker, and frankly I'd like to see more of it as opposed to shock value or pretentiousness.

    Furthermore its kinda ironic how much better this Superman/Batman confrontation plays out as opposed to BvS, which was in turn inspired by Miller's earlier work.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-16-2019 at 03:00 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  11. #416
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    So just got done reading it. Jesus that dialogue. I swear it gets worse every issue. Kind of wish I'd picked up Superman vs. The Klan instead. Still plan to at some point. So, on to the good points. The way he catches criminals. I actually like this. Wrapping them in duct tape and leaving notes. It's very Batman but with it's own distinctive style. The Lois stuff wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. But with his dialogue, it's hard to tell sometimes. As near as I can tell, ASBAR isn't "canon" anymore, I guess? Lots of stuff in here contradicts it. Like his first meeting with Batman and Wonder Woman. Which brings me to the bad. Wonder Woman. She met him all of five minutes ago and wants him to take her in his arms and carry her away. Yeah, no. This is exactly the kind of misogyny that people complain about. Luthor pitting them against each other was clearly a reference to BVS. Miller needs a handler. I don't know how much of this was just him being out of touch or him being deliberately hokey but this whole project had a "The Room" vibe to it. Someone who doesn't know they're a bad writer. And, yeah, the "I'll show them all" stuff did come across as petty and vindictive.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  12. #417
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    So just got done reading it. Jesus that dialogue. I swear it gets worse every issue. Kind of wish I'd picked up Superman vs. The Klan instead. Still plan to at some point. So, on to the good points. The way he catches criminals. I actually like this. Wrapping them in duct tape and leaving notes. It's very Batman but with it's own distinctive style. The Lois stuff wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. But with his dialogue, it's hard to tell sometimes. As near as I can tell, ASBAR isn't "canon" anymore, I guess? Lots of stuff in here contradicts it. Like his first meeting with Batman and Wonder Woman. Which brings me to the bad. Wonder Woman. She met him all of five minutes ago and wants him to take her in his arms and carry her away. Yeah, no. This is exactly the kind of misogyny that people complain about. Luthor pitting them against each other was clearly a reference to BVS. Miller needs a handler. I don't know how much of this was just him being out of touch or him being deliberately hokey but this whole project had a "The Room" vibe to it. Someone who doesn't know they're a bad writer. And, yeah, the "I'll show them all" stuff did come across as petty and vindictive.
    I don't know why I am defending this terrible book, but to be fair to Miller, I'm pretty sure a lot of timeskips were occuring this issue and wonder woman wasn't suddenly head over heels.

  13. #418
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    I don't know why I am defending this terrible book, but to be fair to Miller, I'm pretty sure a lot of timeskips were occuring this issue and wonder woman wasn't suddenly head over heels.
    Thereís nothing at all to indicate any sort of time skip. Itís the next scene, same night.

  14. #419
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    To be fair that's not misogyny. Just having a girl fall head over heels for a guy right away...that's not hatred of women. Sexism? Sure, he definitely has old timey views in a way of stereotypes. But I don't think he falls into the category of hate. Its unrealistic, there's no pacing to it, all of those things.. Basically its bad use of love at first sight. But I think sometimes sexism and misogyny get combined together when they're different things. Neither good, but still key differences.

    I didn't think the I'll show them part came off as bad at all. I liked that particular scene a lot actually. Since the dual nature of his identities has been so diluted over the past two decades, you don't get much of this stuff anymore, to see the hurt when people think nothing or lesser of him because of the public show he has to put on. Those are key elements that have been missing from the character for a long time. I mean, maybe his strange dialogue makes it sound bad to some, but to me I'm pretty certain the intent was just that innate wish sometimes that he could just let loose the shackles and show who Clark Kent really is. He can't do that obviously and he knows it, its very quickly out of sight out of mind, but he does feel it sometimes. I don't find that petty, I find that a very natural emotion and a really interesting part of the once-upon-a-time pretty cerebral nature of the character with his double life. That's gone now in the main canon and has been for a long time, its nice to get it somewhere else, even if not voiced the best way possible. But I took it very much like the "touchdown" scene in Superman '78. A look into a frustration that should come with playing a part that's not really him, however necessary it may be.

    Basically Miller echoes my feelings on the true self/mask dynamic here. Clark is a mask insofar only as how he acts as Clark in Metropolis (though to me the lore works best when that's extended far before Metropolis, a trick he utilizes most his life in fact). Clark Kent is very real, he just doesn't act himself in public. In fact that's what I'd really like to see again someday too. Tackling Clark as a little boy being forced to create this disguise. Just another reason why Superboy, in some reformed concept or another, should be part of his history always.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-16-2019 at 04:14 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    There’s nothing at all to indicate any sort of time skip. It’s the next scene, same night.
    Yup. And the “I’ll show them all scene” completely fails to be any kind of genuine exploration of Clark feeling frustrated that he can’t show his true self to Lois because...umm...in this garbage book he doesn’t actually TALK to her at all unless she’s unconscious. You can definitely explore Clark feeling frustrated and wanting to prove himself to Lois (Smallville did that to great impact and they managed to do it without character assassination—funny that) but you can’t do it in a book where Lois is given absolutely no agency whatsoever nor any kind of point of view.

    Lois Lane gets frustrated with Clark Kent because he pretends to be a coward and she doesn’t suffer fools. But by showing NONE of that and just having her call him “useless” while he’s in the bathroom (something btw she’s literally never done in 80 damn years completely out of context like that) you aren’t exploring a darn thing. It just sets her up to look mean with no POV whatsoever and sets Clark up to look petty and vindictive.

    I have no sympathy for a Superman who wants to “show” Lois who he really is in a story where she has zero POV and we never once see him even trying to connect with her when she’s conscious.

    It’s vindictive and garbage writing of Lois from a writer who has a documented history of crapping all over her and it’s trash,

    Finally, while sexism and misogyny have different meanings (though they are connected issues as sexism is the institutional oppression of women and misogyny is a root cause), I would point out that it is not remotely inappropriate to call what Miller does “misogyny” because misogyny does not have to be deliberate to be present. Miller’s handling of women suggests through his history and work that he harbors some troubling stances on gender and sex and whether he thinks he “hates” women or not, his work most definitely reflects views that make the label appropriate.

    In fact, a lot of misogynist behavior is predicated by people who claim to “love” women (see Donald Trump) and certainly can be internalized as well. Bottom line? Writing that repeatedly displays a pattern that treats women with either disdain or solely there as a sexual object is most definitely writing that can be critiqued as misogynist. Thank you.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 10-16-2019 at 05:17 PM.

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