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  1. #121
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    With all due respect, if they weren't overstated this would be getting a lot more attention than it is. Batman showing frontal, silhouette nudity generated more of a controversy than this book. That pulled Joker/Batgirl cover a few years back generated more outrage. I respect that you personally have big issue with it, but with the general masses it just hasn't been that big a deal. Reviews mentioning the attempted assault scene isn't indicative of controversy. Its a key scene in the issue, of course its going to get mentioned and critiqued. But I've yet to see a review of the book suggest the book need be banned or should have never seen publication because of a scene he or she might not have been a big fan of. Likewise I've also seen reviews that have had no problem with the scene altogether as it is.

    If other writers in the industry happen to think its bad, that's fine. I have no trouble believing that much, I'm sure its quite common for creators to not care for another creator's take. That's not quite the same thing as feeling it shouldn't have been published. I stand by if there's any creators out there stewing over it to that degree, then they're being juvenile. As for the book essentially being relegated to the DKRverse, and evidence of disowning, that really makes no sense at all. It was originally marketed as a Black Label, out-of-continuity project. Miller later connected it to the DKRverse, another alternate reality. Either way it was always going to be an out-of-continutiy project so what other-continuity it was attached to if any makes absolutely no difference. This is not evidence of anything murky.

    Finally this doesn't undermine anyone else's work on the main titles. It never has. Fans are aware of the difference, and creators are aware of the difference. During the 90s, Elseworlds Superman books were a dime a dozen. Did that undermine the triangle era for the main books? Not at all. Its the same thing here. There is nothing particularly unique about Miller's book that changes the rules here. I have no issue with anyone thinking the quality is bad. I have no issue with anyone thinking Miller isn't a good writer. Anymore or ever. But I think you're amping things up to a degree of offense that just is not realistically there because of those negative opinions. Which again on a personal level is fine. Everyone has writers they don't care for, be it with specific characters or just altogether. But its not indicative of any panic DC needs to be in, or any offense Bendis needs to be in, for the project simply existing.

    Btw, I hope none of this comes across as attacking you personally. We just disagree on this instance. I greatly enjoy your thoughts and having discussions with you.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-23-2019 at 12:13 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  2. #122
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    If that attempted rape scene is getting a lot of heat, then people really need to chill out. Seriously, how is that any worse than what DC has put in their main books since 2006?

    Miller gave us a scene that was uncomfortable and a little scary, but it never even made it to "torn clothes" levels of gratuitous, and Lana didn't actually get hurt. How is this worse than, say, Superboy Prime ripping Titans apart in Infinite Crisis? Those panels were dripping with blood and bone and an over-the-top violence that even a fifteen year old would say is unnecessary. Or the rooftop sex scene with Batman and Catwoman? I mean, yeah, that was consensual but did anyone ask for soft core porn in their mainstream DC books? How about the pile of dead, "failed" Harley Quinns Joker has in a basement somewhere? Is what Miller wrote *really* worse than all that? I don't think so. Not by miles. And this imprint is for mature readers, which means there's (supposed to be) more serious content. I mean, did ya'll bitch about the sex, boobs, and violence in Game of Thrones? No, because that's what HBO does. So why are ya'll bitching about Black Label, which is supposed to be the HBO of DC Comics?

    And there's plenty of precedent for Clark to involve himself in such a sex-based crime too. In his very first appearance he stopped a wife beater from hitting his wife so its not like Superman usually stays away from DV problems.

    If someone doesn't like the book I can totally understand that. This definitely wasn't something for everyone, and that's cool. The execution is worthy of criticism. But the complaints Im hearing about? A lot of them just sound ridiculous compared to what DC publishes every week.
    Last edited by Ascended; 06-23-2019 at 06:58 AM.
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  3. #123
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    The problems with the content are not vastly overstated. If your standard is ďwell Miller at least didnít put in a graphic teen gang rape scene,Ē or there hasnít been a Million Moms petition, so itís fine, then sure itís overstated. But every review mentions it and is critical of it. I mean at the best interpretation itís Miller trying and laughably failing to be ďwokeĒ and ďrelevantĒ by including some kind of Metoo stuff, but I doubt that was his intent. Itís there to make Clark look cool and Lana to swoon, which is a great use of attempted rape in 2019. No modern writer would dream of putting a scene like that in Supermanís origin, mature readers label or not. Itís fanfic level. It serves an empty purpose and is wholly tone deaf. So regardless of the controversy generated, the content could still be a problem internally. They may be relieved it didnít blow up in their faces.

    And that is not even getting to the overall quality of the book. I wouldnít be surprised at all if a lot of pros look at the book on the whole and see Millerís take as laughably bad. Itís a book of stereotypes and cardboard cutouts not characters. Itís Kansas Farmer #1 and Weak Worried Woman #2 from a stock character book as the Kentís. The supporting cast is an old manís interpretation of a group of ďteen misfitsĒ and bullies thatíd be eye rolling in a bad 80ís movie. The narration and dialogue are a diluted ďIím the goddamn BatmanĒ level of craft. So yeah, I could see talent in the office looking at this book and being like what the hell were they thinking. Particularly some of the editors and writers in the Superman office now.

    Plus, I think we already have evidence of this being disowned before it even came out with how it was retroactively pigeon holed into the DKRís universe in order to cut it off from the main books. If you donít think that is so they can say explicitly itís just Millerís Superman, not the real Superman, I think thatís a little naive. It wasnít intended to be a DKRís prequel, and the earlier press for it went the other way and seemed to actually distance it from DKRís. Then they probably saw the final product and wanted to stick it into a hole and this was the easiest one. If this was intended to be a DKRís universe book from the get go they would have said so, because that would guarantee it more buzz and sales. It was a last minute switch.

    So yeah, Bendis & Co. have been working for over a year to try to make Superman relevant and revitalize the character, and now this book is getting put out and it does undermine their work. Revitalizing Superman has been Bendisí pet project since he came on board at DC. DKRís is an alternate universe take on Superman and one that has hurt the character for decades. Though I do think that that danger presented by YO is overstated. The quality isnít here. Bad interpretations done well - like Injustice - are far more damaging. And as for being no pushback for Injustice, that was a game adaptation. The comic people have no say in that stuff, and the creatives and editors are almost completely different now then they were then.
    I don't think this was ever intended to be a mainstream book. I have my issues with Miller as well but I'm also willing to be open minded on this. I seriously question DC's judgement in giving Miller more work given his track record of late and the fact that he had to have a "handler" on his last project. But even someone like Didio has to know better than to stick anything Miller does into mainstream continuity. At least these days anyway. But they've made their decision on this so if they're going to do it, he should be kept on a tight leash and away from the main books. I have no idea if that one poster is telling the truth about having an inside source at DC but everything they've said so far matches what we've been hearing coming out of the DC offices for a while now which is that it's Didio and Lee vs. everyone else there. So it also wouldn't surprise me if everyone else there thought this was a bad idea too. Especially given the currently unstable nature of the mainstream Superman's origin right now. I can see why some people might think this is official canon. Calling it Year One was a bad idea regardless.

    It also occurs to me that we appear to be a society that swallows up it's own culture. No one seems able to come up with any original ideas anymore. When Year One originally came out back in 1987, I doubt anyone expected DC to copy that model some 30 years later for every other character. It was just intended to be the name of Batman's post-Crisis origin running through the mainstream books at that time. Maybe that's the real problem. Going back to the same well over and over again because they're out of ideas. As for Injustice, yes, it did come under fire for it's portrayal of Superman being damaging to the character. And not unjustifiably so. Superman has been damaged in the public psyche a lot the last few decades. I would argue Snyder's movie did more damage than both Miller and Injustice combined and yet we still have people whining to see the "Snyder cut" of JL.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  4. #124
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I wouldíve waited until it was all finished and just gotten the collected edition. Mate how are you not bored of Smallville and Clark becoming Superman yet? Itís the same story over and over again, itís like the perfect emblem of the Superman franchise trapped going in circles.
    Because it's a good story, it's fun to see how different they are, and there really aren't that many. You make it sound like there's a dozen. In this decade:
    Earth One - Which is fine because it's supposed to be a new elseworld story. Like an Ultimate thing.
    Morrison's: Which is also fine, because it explained the origin for the new52.
    American Alien
    Man and Superman
    Earth One

    That's five origin stories spread out over ten years, two of which are justified by having to set up a new line/take/whatever or dealing with a universe wide reboot. The other three are wildly different from each other. Man and Superman skips the destruction of Krypton and life in Smallville to start right in Metropolis.

  5. #125
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That said your examples have shown that they can take elements of something outside canon that's successful and implement it. I was half surprised they didn't try it with American Alien.
    As popular as AA is, is there anything in that story worth carrying over?

  6. #126
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I'm sick of the vague origins and constantly changing facts created with each retelling.

    But to me an origin is essential as a framework. Byrne and Wolfman's Post-Crisis Superman is built off the 1986 Man of Steel. The new-52 one is built off Morrison's Action Comics. If you didn't read those stories and came in expecting Superman the Movie or Snyder's Man of Steel as the backstory you'd be confused. So I'd rather you tell me Superman's origin to set up your continuity than drop me in the middle of the story with no explanation of how we got there.

    They might all be built from Morrison's All-Star shorthand but a Superman story from 1972, 1992 and 2012 work better if you read the applicable origin story and less well if you assume the 1948 origin gives you that story.
    Yeah, but a lot of these origins (Man and Superman, American Alien, Year One) are essentially Elseworlds, no facts to change no need to keep things vague.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Because it's a good story, it's fun to see how different they are, and there really aren't that many. You make it sound like there's a dozen. In this decade:
    Earth One - Which is fine because it's supposed to be a new elseworld story. Like an Ultimate thing.
    Morrison's: Which is also fine, because it explained the origin for the new52.
    American Alien
    Man and Superman
    Earth One

    That's five origin stories spread out over ten years, two of which are justified by having to set up a new line/take/whatever or dealing with a universe wide reboot. The other three are wildly different from each other. Man and Superman skips the destruction of Krypton and life in Smallville to start right in Metropolis.
    In terms of mainstream origins, in the last 20 years alone we've had:

    Byrne's MOS.

    Return to Krypton (I'm counting this separately since it changes elements of Byrne's)

    Birthright

    Johns Secret Origin

    New 52

    Rebirth (assuming Rebirth is something different from SO)

    And we wonder why we're having trouble trying to win over new readers.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  8. #128
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    In terms of mainstream origins, in the last 20 years alone we've had:

    Byrne's MOS.
    Um, that was over 30 years ago, not 20. That's a lifetime ago.

    Return to Krypton (I'm counting this separately since it changes elements of Byrne's)
    Haven't heard of this one, but probably falls in the late 80's/early 90's if we're still talking Byrne.

    Birthright

    Johns Secret Origin
    Legitimate points, but both are over a decade past, and Birthright is a classic now.

    New 52
    Yeah, but that was needed because the whole universe got rebooted.

    Rebirth (assuming Rebirth is something different from SO)

    And we wonder why we're having trouble trying to win over new readers.
    But Rebirth hasn't done the origin story yet? It seems to just be vague and probably somewhat based on SO.

    So in 20 years we've had 3 mainstream origins, and one was in response to a huge reboot and another is a classic. Only SO really seems to be kind of unneeded really.

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Um, that was over 30 years ago, not 20. That's a lifetime ago.
    Technically, MOS was the official origin 20 years ago. That's why I included it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Haven't heard of this one, but probably falls in the late 80's/early 90's if we're still talking Byrne.
    This was a story done in 2001 where it turns out the whole 'birthing matrix" thing was a lie and Krypton really looked like the SA one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Legitimate points, but both are over a decade past, and Birthright is a classic now.
    Classic. But still no longer canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah, but that was needed because the whole universe got rebooted.
    True. But constant rebooting causes distrust in the public. Good as it may have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    But Rebirth hasn't done the origin story yet? It seems to just be vague and probably somewhat based on SO.
    So in 20 years we've had 3 mainstream origins, and one was in response to a huge reboot and another is a classic. Only SO really seems to be kind of unneeded really.
    We have no idea if we're back to SO or something else. And to my mind, that's the problem.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  10. #130
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Technically, MOS was the official origin 20 years ago. That's why I included it.
    Yeah, but the point I had been making before that was there's not as many *new* origin stories as some fans complain. Even if it was in continuity 20 years ago, it is still a story that is older than I am.

    Classic. But still no longer canon.
    What does canon have to do with anything?

    True. But constant rebooting causes distrust in the public. Good as it may have been.
    But we haven't gotten constant rebooting. Sure, with Birthright and SO we got two in the 00's which wasn't the smartest, but they were still largely at opposite ends of a decade. And new52 was needed for that whole reboot. But aren't we getting off topic? I was responding to some fans getting sick of origin retellings, not reboots, and most new origins lately aren't reboots. Earth One, American Alien, Man and Superman, Year One, these are out of continuity tales, so why complain about another origin story when it isn't rebooting anything? I say these retellings are pretty fun and harmless, and unlike BR/SO/new52 doesn't affect anything. This isn't a reboot, so as a fan of origin stories I'm all in for this.

    We have no idea if we're back to SO or something else. And to my mind, that's the problem.
    I'll agree with that, but still it's a different problem than having another rebooted origin at the moment, so is a bit of a different topic.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Because it's a good story, it's fun to see how different they are, and there really aren't that many. You make it sound like there's a dozen. In this decade:
    Earth One - Which is fine because it's supposed to be a new elseworld story. Like an Ultimate thing.
    Morrison's: Which is also fine, because it explained the origin for the new52.
    American Alien
    Man and Superman
    Earth One

    That's five origin stories spread out over ten years, two of which are justified by having to set up a new line/take/whatever or dealing with a universe wide reboot. The other three are wildly different from each other. Man and Superman skips the destruction of Krypton and life in Smallville to start right in Metropolis.
    I think a lot of people include the Man of Steel movie and the Smallville tv show when they talk about origin overkill. Smallville might not be this decade but since it was a weekly look at how we get to Superman that lasted 10 seasons, it casts a longer shadow in the "didn't we just see this" category.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah, but a lot of these origins (Man and Superman, American Alien, Year One) are essentially Elseworlds, no facts to change no need to keep things vague.
    But Elseworlds do change the facts- that is sort of the whole point of them. American Alien as an origin works because we know it isn't supposed to spit out the same Superman at the end. Same with Year One. It's why I don't have the same hate for them as origin stories others do. I want to see how things happened that shaped this version of Superman into the character he'll become. Same as Man of Steel (2013 needed to show me Jonathan's different persona, Clark's fear of being discovered, etc; to make me see why Cavill's version wasn't Dean Cain's, Chris Reeve's or the guy in the comics.

  13. #133
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Superman's origin is a popular well to go back to precisely because there are so many different ways of doing it. What age did he first get his powers? Which one came first? How did he discover them? What did Krypton look like? Was he a Superboy? Was the Legion involved? I can't blame any creator who wants to do their own version. The problem is when we're dealing with mainstream continuity. Everyone has their own thing they think needs to be included in it. And trying to appease everyone can get messy. Especially when so many fans disagree on what they want in there. And, in many cases, what they DON'T want. How many fans think the idea of a costumed Superboy flying around Smallville is dumb? Enough to make the post-Crisis Superman successful. But how many complain when the Legion isn't involved? There's no way to make everyone happy. Or, if there is, DC hasn't found it or are willing to do it. This is why I don't think he'll ever have a carved in stone origin. Too many people want too many different things.

    My "unreasonable proposal" for DC is this: Sit down with fans and hash out what they want to see in his origin. Negotiate the terms, so to speak. If we're going to have something that will stick for a while, then fans should get a say in the matter. Don't let one creator just do "their" version as the official version.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  14. #134
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    My "unreasonable proposal" for DC is this: Sit down with fans and hash out what they want to see in his origin. Negotiate the terms, so to speak. If we're going to have something that will stick for a while, then fans should get a say in the matter. Don't let one creator just do "their" version as the official version.
    Considering how wildly different fan opinions are I'm not sure if DC wouldn't walk out of that discussion more confused than before.

    I actually think the "best" origin we've gotten is Johns' Secret Origin. It was an awful story, poorly written and lacking any real depth or personality. It was just a bullet list of things that happened in Clark's life. And that's why I think it works. You could take virtually any version of Superman and plug SO in as Clark's origin and it'll (more or less) work. As a story it's terrible but it *does* balance a lot of differing elements between different eras and combines them into one relatively solid timeline, and its lack of personality means it wont contradict the current writer's vision too much. And there's plenty of blank space to work new aspects and ideas in.

    I enjoy almost every other origin more than SO, as a story. But as a framework to build the "current" Superman around, it's effective.
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  15. #135
    Incredible Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Birthright is my favorite contemporary origin, which I feel bad about saying now considering how mad I was that it usurped Man of Steel as the definitive origin at the time.

    But Birthright not only checked all the boxes, but it also had real emotional depth and was well-written. Not everything was perfect, but it's the best out of the bunch IMO.

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