Page 29 of 35 FirstFirst ... 19252627282930313233 ... LastLast
Results 421 to 435 of 514
  1. #421
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    iowa
    Posts
    1,767

    Default

    Yeah, there's a lot of problems with the writing of women in this book. The first Lois encounter I could almost roll with, because he seems to fall for her just as quickly as she does for him. But then that pattern goes on to Wonder Woman... in the same issue. And Diana is crying as he leaves? Wth? And as was already said, what happened to Lori?? Is she just "chicken liver (of the sea)" now? I know Superman had a number of loves in the Silver Age, but... wow. Show some time passing, or something. Any interactions with women in Miller's books definitely need a strong editor, imo.

    On the bright side (if there is one), when folks talk about how quickly people fall in love in Elvis movies, I can point to this issue's last few pages and say "at least it's not that." lol

    That said, I love Superman's interaction with criminals, as well as with Batman. Those were just about note-perfect. Plain, no-nonsense, smart, and dangerous if he wanted to be. I could read those panels over and over. And Diana's initial appearance page was powerful, at least.
    Hear my new CD "Love The World Away", available on iTunes, Google Music, Spotify, Shazam, and Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01N5XYV..._waESybX1C0RXK via @amazon
    www.jamiekelleymusic.com
    TV interview here: https://snjtoday.com/snj-today-hotline-jamie-kelley/

  2. #422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Small detail, but Luthor's introduction was badass with the elevator opening to reveal him. Very simple but but really effective. And an interesting first meeting between him and Superman at that. Lex is so cunning he catches Superman off-guard and eggs him into a situation of his own making before he even realizes what's happening. Could tell no one's been able to pull the wool over his eyes like this before and its shocking and confusing. Awesome way to portray right off the bat how different Lex is, just why he's so formidable, its his mind, the way he gets what he wants with his words, the way he plays you before you even know you're been played. And he catches Clark completely off-guard by succeeding in doing it to him, despite his own intellect which frankly is superior to everyone else's but in this instance he realizes Lex is different. The dynamic is set up right there. The most dangerous mind Superman has ever met.
    I am sorry, but that put me off entirely. The amount of cunningness for a person to make another betray his core is astronomical. Luthor didn't do anything that impressive in cunningness department to warrant that kind of reaction from me. But, he was able bend superman to his will? And to top it all of make him work for the government? I am sorry,both these things are fundamentally against the character the siegel and shuster created. Sure, he might work with government. But working for the government and luthor like this is just unacceptable for me. And the explanation given was nowhere near credible enough for me. So intead of captivating me. it turned me off. I couldn't read any further. I knew this was dark knight returns guy. But, i didn't want that to plague this. But it did. Superman was the guy that took the law into his own hands to protect those who are weaker than. The vigilante. The core of the character.

  3. #423
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Usually at the End of Time
    Posts
    4,345

    Default

    Just finished issue #3.

    What. The. Ever. Loving. Frick.

    What did I just read? The first half of that issue at least had some cohesiveness to it. The second half of the issue seemed like it was trying to jam an entire 2nd miniseries worth of plotlines into half a book.

    Luthor was great, but they're was almost no interaction between him and Kal. Bruce was his usual psychotic insecure Miller self, but he actually LOST a fight against Clark.

    Diana. What a problem. Her debut looked amazing. But I didn't buy any non-platonic chemistry between them.

    Joker was a nice and visually unique cameo.

    Brainiac came out of nowhere.

    Lois seemed kinda bad ass, until she wasn't.

    Clark being tricked into working for the government and calling himself a stooge" made me mad.

    Overall: C-

  4. #424
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    16,528

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am sorry, but that put me off entirely. The amount of cunningness for a person to make another betray his core is astronomical. Luthor didn't do anything that impressive in cunningness department to warrant that kind of reaction from me. But, he was able bend superman to his will? And to top it all of make him work for the government? I am sorry,both these things are fundamentally against the character the siegel and shuster created. Sure, he might work with government. But working for the government and luthor like this is just unacceptable for me. And the explanation given was nowhere near credible enough for me. So intead of captivating me. it turned me off. I couldn't read any further. I knew this was dark knight returns guy. But, i didn't want that to plague this. But it did. Superman was the guy that took the law into his own hands to protect those who are weaker than. The vigilante. The core of the character.
    I didn't get the impression he betrayed anything as I didn't see it as him ever actually doing the government's bidding. Investigating Batman I took him doing of his own separate accord. What he got conned into was the farce of that news conference. He's uncomfortable the entire time and couldnt' get out of their fast enough. That's what I appreciated Luthor weasling his way into achieving without Superman realizing it at first, as a first meeting scenario and Superman realizing what he's capable of. But what Superman did afterward he did of his own accord, at least that's how I read it. If I had the interpretation of him doing everything after that to Luthor and the government's whim, I'd have been mad too. But I didn't read it that way. It was just him ending up at that farce of a news conference that blindsided him and that I liked the portrayal of Luthor conning him into without him realizing it at first. I don't know, did anyone else interpret it this way, that Superman going to Gotham and the like was actually because Luthor and his puppets wanted him to do it?
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-16-2019 at 09:35 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  5. #425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I didn't get the impression he betrayed anything as I didn't see it as him ever actually doing the government's bidding. Investigating Batman I took him doing of his own separate accord. What he got conned into was the farce of that news conference. He's uncomfortable the entire time and couldnt' get out of their fast enough. That's what I appreciated Luthor weasling his way into achieving without Superman realizing it at first, as a first meeting scenario and Superman realizing what he's capable of. But what Superman did afterward he did of his own accord, at least that's how I read it. If I had the interpretation of him doing everything after that to Luthor and the government's whim, I'd have been mad too. But I didn't read it that way. It was just him ending up at that farce of a news conference that blindsided him and that I liked the portrayal of Luthor conning him into without him realizing it at first. I don't know, did anyone else interpret it this way, that Superman going to Gotham and the like was actually because Luthor and his puppets wanted him to do it?
    Maybe it's just darkknight returns running in the back of my head. The minute, that conference happened it turned me off. Also, i gave it another try. It still feels wierd to me. Especially, coupled with the way the fight with batman and superman ended. If superman had alone figured luthor out. It would have atleast been something redeemable for me. But, wonderwoman with lasso of truth stepped in.
    I said betrayal, because i have never seen any superman willingly work for any regime. Not even the post crisis guy. So, it is part of the core of Clark's very being. Luthor making him do that so easily just took me out of it.

  6. #426
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Maybe it's just darkknight returns running in the back of my head. The minute, that conference happened it turned me off. Also, i gave it another try. It still feels wierd to me. Especially, coupled with the way the fight with batman and superman ended. If superman had alone figured luthor out. It would have atleast been something redeemable for me. But, wonderwoman with lasso of truth stepped in.
    I said betrayal, because i have never seen any superman willingly work for any regime. Not even the post crisis guy. So, it is part of the core of Clark's very being. Luthor making him do that so easily just took me out of it.
    Keep in mind this Superman trained as a Sailor. I can say from experience that it never really leaves you. The Brainwashing goes deep once you swear that oath.

  7. #427

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    Keep in mind this Superman trained as a Sailor. I can say from experience that it never really leaves you. The Brainwashing goes deep once you swear that oath.
    That's the thing though. Even as a marine he was a lose canon and got into trouble. Even if that were the case an arc like i mentioned would have been interesting. I mean, they did it with captain America in the movies.

  8. #428
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Frank Miller writes a bad comic.

    Who could have seen that coming.

  9. #429
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,252

    Default

    Okay

    - man, Romita opens big and never lets up. I'm not always big on his art but I can't ask for more than what we got here from page one.

    - our intro to Lois is piloting a sub in the depths of the ocean. I'm not sorry to call that her best debut yet

    - the beach fight has really great choreography and you can tell the chemistry between writer and artist. Reminds me of the Batman YO fight that Superman SO also tried to mimic with the sewers.

    - I like Superman unknowingly being a peer and understanding combat/operational mindsets, evoking his own experience dealing with standing up to bullies singularly and in packs, and his appetite for posturing. Obviously this will come up in variations later, too. Same for the repetition of "rattling" and electricity based attacks, weirdly enough.

    - the story does a great job of setting up Metropolis in that Clark once again has seen the world and more of it than us in his ways, but the big city is still new to him. Gotta also love his boldness, nice that he's able to get in that rescue before either identity is set up.

    - I don't think of Clark as the disguise as a generally interesting idea, but like Birthright this origin manages to show why it makes sense. It's not this lifelong parody but a way to operate as a flipside to Superman, and it effectively demonstrates the common idea I see people express here: the real guy is in between the lines of what people around him read.

    - two weird things: Miller has difficulty working out the idea of going after the big fish, protecting a bank instead of the people on the streets. He also has Superman trap the robbers in the most ridiculous way: if there are two guys likely using one car, whose cars did he use for that?

    - "don't you be readin' woman!" I've been understanding Miller in this story as he uses dialogue for parody as it reminds me of a convo I recently had on presuming intention. If the guy here is beating his wife, is there really some nuanced or intelligent thing he would say here instead? Good use of comic book absurdity.

    - really like Lois immediately dancing with the identity, and how JRJR does her expression. I saw people take issue with her calling Clark useless, but clearly her experiences happened between the pages. There's nothing really harsh beyond justification.

    - and let's face it, Peter Parker has been a more competent expression of the repressed identity since he came about. Before and through his last eight films the public has connected with his lot in life in a way that Clark always fails immediately beneath the surface. The mood Miller strikes here is a solid attempt to reclaim the idea that obviously inspired Stan and Steve, with another fantastic image by JRJR. Wow.

    - here's Lois in a less famous helicopter scene, this time she doesn't have to be saved. Superman's destruction this time around is decently clever. I like how his meeting with Lex flows in dialogue... these two don't know each other, but they still know each other.

    - Batman YO is weird because the Miller Bruce written there and copied endlessly in stories like the LotDK series isn't written like the Miller Bruce before or since. This is a slightly less ridiculous ASBAR.

    - though it uses the same source of the golden age for very different points, the Superman fan in me still loves calling the Luthor scene back to


    - Luthor takes advantage of Superman's obligation in a pretty neat way. I'm assuming the scenes with Hector and Joker took place before their encounter, though? Anyway, the guy has a good read and exploits Superman's appetite for antagonism. His counter ego. He's right to address Batman as a weak threat and Batman is right to be on the defensive, it's just that their flaws carry the encounter beyond a necessary point of conflict.

    - this is the physical climax of the whole story and Miller again decides to no sell the fight. It's a bold anti climax, but Miller doesn't betray the Superman he's established. This guy is invincible and only grows stronger. This is definitely BvS although Batman isn't a killer and there's no krypronite to check Superman's ego.

    - once again Wonder Woman is the glue. It's a shame we knew all three would be meeting up here months ago, because referencing/re doing BvS would have been a cool surprise. Here Diana is immediately the physical equal, arguably a bigger person, and someone who can see the picture beyond the male ego. She is a champion of truth and justice as made explicit in the writing.

    - I saw someone mention the idea of Diana being tamed as some sort of misogynistic masochism. Yes... Luthor is as he was! That's the point. And it's turned on its head explicitly by intention when he ends up bound and psychologically stripped naked.

    - there's a weird push and pull when Diana, definitely drawn to be bigger now, asserts herself while still shedding a tear for the man to which she's compelled. I think that absolutely was rushed and awkward, but we are not given a superior position for Superman or a shallow reason for her concern. It's just that for all the time we spent in Smallville, yet another relationship with a woman was rushed to melodrama. No story is perfect. For the guy who turned Batman's primary love interest into a hooker for one of the greatest legends in comics though, it just isn't that weird.

    - Miller literally brings it home, both to an aspect of Krypton and a reference to the original Year One ending. I like that we have no idea how Luthor has managed all of his extraterrestrial data and how this serves to hand the baton off to the second great villain, who almost never seems to manage his due in commercial products.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I said betrayal, because i have never seen any superman willingly work for any regime. Not even the post crisis guy. So, it is part of the core of Clark's very being.
    You don't mean take on a mission on behalf of the gov't, do you? You accept with but not for, where do you draw the line?
    Welcome or welcome back! Please check out the updated
    CBR Community STANDARDS & RULES

  10. #430
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,822

    Default

    There were parts of this issue I LOVED and parts which I didn't care much for.

    This issue is obviously a lot less experimental than the last one. We're back on familiar ground, namely, Superman starting his career in Metropolis, meeting Lois and Lex etc. So, the insanity of Miller's approach stands out a lot more in this context than it did last issue in an already unfamiliar context, such as Superman in the Marines, or fighting for the throne of Atlantis.

    I think Miller does a decent job getting this very unique take on Clark he's been developing for the last two issues to a familiar status quo. I like the way Superman's first meeting was handled. He's saved her from a helicopter or a plane WAY too often...why not a submarine? I like the idea that Lois is the one who inspired him to take up journalism - even though they barely really explore it in any depth. But that's this series for you - it throw out a lot of cool ideas but doesn't explore any of them in depth.

    I'm not a great fan of the Silver Age idea of Clark being the disguise and Superman being the 'real' identity, but Miller has sold me on it for this series at least. His version of Clark identifies with humanity and cares about the earth, but his perspective has always been an alien one, and it shows. In a twisted sort of way, they kinda touch upon the old idea of Lois being Superman's tether to humanity, in the moment where he considers ignoring the hostage crisis and writing off those fragile human lives...until he remembers that they are "her people", and then ultimately "his people".

    It was also a little neat to see Superman come up with the whole 'secret identity' kinda on the fly. He literally figures out that Lois will recognize him as Superman five seconds before meeting her, and so realizes he needs to disguise himself as Clark! Don't see this working in any other adaptation, but Miller's absurd story manages to pull it off with gusto. The fact that Lois pretty much figures it out in five seconds also gave me a kick!

    Superman's alien perspective is a take on the Silver Age, but his actions and persona in costume are very much Golden Age to begin with...with a remix of the wife-beater scene from Action # 1 to boot! But his 'understanding' with Luthor is where the story does a 180 that I feel could have been intriguing, but which Miller kinda mishandled. It seemed like he randomly decided he needed to thrust in some heavy foreshadowing of the DKRverse in the middle of his 'Year One' story and so clumsily introduced the idea of Superman potentially becoming a government 'stooge'.

    Luthor's motivations were also pretty unclear in the story. Did he want to control Superman and get him to kill Batman? Did he view Superman as a threat? And if so, a threat to his illegal businesses, or an existential threat to humanity? The whole meeting with the Joker didn't make much sense either...was he consulting the Joker to get a business idea from him? Are we supposed to believe that LexCorp developed Joker venom?

    I LOVED Batman in this story! He was totally dope. A far cry from Year One Batman...more like a younger DKR Batman, or a particularly sadistic version of the Golden Age Batman. But I loved the fact that Miller depicted him enjoying the job! Its so rare to see Batman just enjoying being Batman, and to have it come from Miller of all writers is just icing on the cake.

    Wonder Woman started out strong when she broke up Batman and Superman's frankly childish fight (which I think was Miller basically mocking the whole Batman vs. Superman fight obsession that he inadvertantly helped start). But her sudden obsession with Superman about five minutes later just came across as...stupid. Not sexist, not misogynist...just stupid. Also, the fact that she was in a version of her Rebirth costume kinda seemed off, especially compared to Superman and Batman's looks.

    The Brainiac and Kandor ending was a neat nod to the Joker ending of Batman Year One...and a nice way to end the origin story - with Superman officially entering the Silver Age, in a manner of speaking. I kinda hope we get a 'Year Two' with Miller's take on Superman's first encounter with Brainiac and Kandor, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that.

    So on the whole, I'd say that Year One was far from the perfect Superman story, let alone Superman origin. But its the kind of avante-gard experimentation and off-the-walls insanity that you just don't see in DC Comics as much these days, and which we're unlikely to see ever again given the climate of political correctness and censorship that we seem to be headed towards.

  11. #431
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of problems with the writing of women in this book. The first Lois encounter I could almost roll with, because he seems to fall for her just as quickly as she does for him. But then that pattern goes on to Wonder Woman... in the same issue. And Diana is crying as he leaves? Wth? And as was already said, what happened to Lori?? Is she just "chicken liver (of the sea)" now? I know Superman had a number of loves in the Silver Age, but... wow. Show some time passing, or something. Any interactions with women in Miller's books definitely need a strong editor, imo.

    On the bright side (if there is one), when folks talk about how quickly people fall in love in Elvis movies, I can point to this issue's last few pages and say "at least it's not that." lol

    That said, I love Superman's interaction with criminals, as well as with Batman. Those were just about note-perfect. Plain, no-nonsense, smart, and dangerous if he wanted to be. I could read those panels over and over. And Diana's initial appearance page was powerful, at least.
    The crazy part is that this ::does:: read like it was edited. It feels like there are huge chunks of story missing which makes you wonder if his initial ideas for the women were even worse and then someone reigned him in.

    He writes women poorly and it translates to the piss poor way his work handles “romance.” People keep saying that they don’t buy the instant chemistry between him and Diana which, I mean, yeah. But it’s consistent with the way he writes them across the board. Cold, forced and lacking in anything that resembles genuine emotion or affection. It’s all just statements about their power or “Queen” “adonis” and it all is very in line with the piss poor way he wrote them in Dark Knight Strikes Again. Putting aside that he clearly doesn’t understand these characters and that his writing reflects terrible misogyny and gender biases....his writing isn’t romantic. He doesn’t know how to write romance. All of his commentary on relationships reflects deeply uncomfortable and discriminatory views on gender, love and sex. He needs more than an editor imo. This is more than editing can fix. It’s extremely bad. LOL
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 10-17-2019 at 06:11 AM.

  12. #432

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post

    You don't mean take on a mission on behalf of the gov't, do you? You accept with but not for, where do you draw the line?
    That's like working with someone on a project. That's ok. This is like government henchman or subordinate . Superman is a vigilante. Its fundamentally against his being to be an arm of the government. especially, if its permanent.

  13. #433
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    iowa
    Posts
    1,767

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The crazy part is that this ::does:: read like it was edited. It feels like there are huge chunks of story missing which makes you wonder if his initial ideas for the women were even worse and then someone reigned him in.

    He writes women poorly and it translates to the piss poor way his work handles “romance.” People keep saying that they don’t buy the instant chemistry between him and Diana which, I mean, yeah. But it’s consistent with the way he writes them across the board. Cold, forced and lacking in anything that resembles genuine emotion or affection. It’s all just statements about their power or “Queen” “adonis” and it all is very in line with the piss poor way he wrote them in Dark Knight Strikes Again. Putting aside that he clearly doesn’t understand these characters and that his writing reflects terrible misogyny and gender biases....his writing isn’t romantic. He doesn’t know how to write romance. All of his commentary on relationships reflects deeply uncomfortable and discriminatory views on gender, love and sex. He needs more than an editor imo. This is more than editing can fix. It’s extremely bad. LOL
    Do you think it's edited for that, though? I attributed the gaps to him having to cram 10lbs of story into an 8lb bag.

    Yeah, his idea of writing romance is definitely the early 20th century Hollywood idea of it - as in silent movie era. Maybe that's his thing? To be clear on my own mindset, though, I actually don't have a problem with instant chemistry - even with multiple characters - but I see a difference between that and Diana crying as he leaves and (as you said) all the talk of "Queen" and "tame me" and all that. That's just creepy, particularly so in a modern context.

    True on an editor not being able to fix that, though. A co-writer, maybe?
    Hear my new CD "Love The World Away", available on iTunes, Google Music, Spotify, Shazam, and Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01N5XYV..._waESybX1C0RXK via @amazon
    www.jamiekelleymusic.com
    TV interview here: https://snjtoday.com/snj-today-hotline-jamie-kelley/

  14. #434
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    3,067

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Do you think it's edited for that, though? I attributed the gaps to him having to cram 10lbs of story into an 8lb bag.

    Yeah, his idea of writing romance is definitely the early 20th century Hollywood idea of it - as in silent movie era. Maybe that's his thing? To be clear on my own mindset, though, I actually don't have a problem with instant chemistry - even with multiple characters - but I see a difference between that and Diana crying as he leaves and (as you said) all the talk of "Queen" and "tame me" and all that. That's just creepy, particularly so in a modern context.

    True on an editor not being able to fix that, though. A co-writer, maybe?
    He had Azzarello on DK3 which is kind of hilarious that Azz of all people was the one reigning Miller in.

  15. #435
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    10,581

    Default

    Miller needs someone to polish the dialogue/narration.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •