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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Okay that was an oversight on my part. I am not American so Coronado Naval base means nothing to me other than it is a naval base somewhere.

    My first thought was Somali but clearly they cannot be if the base is near the Pacific but they are probably from the other side of the world too, closer to Asia. Now given it is a fictional world, we do not know where and what countries exist etc, I am going to assume Miller is not some racist as some people love to say he is other than it was used for expediency as many writers have done in comics before. I could call Geoff Johns out for using muslim terrorists and a stereotypical view of Khandaq too if I wanted but I didn't and won't because I am not so hypersensitive that the comic is mean to demean muslims or make horrible judgments about people I do not know. If it was done sloppily then editorial did not do their job.

    And if people did not like Lori as a mermaid, that is fine but the need to vilify Miller personally as racist and also woman hater etc imo is a bit much and absurd. It's just like the over blown stuff about the non existent gang rape from last issue.
    Dressing up pirates in stereotypical garb is not expediency. A generic look is expediency. This was clearly done with specificity in mind. And you can't give Miller the benefit of the doubt due to his past history with Islamophobia.
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  2. #302
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Okay that was an oversight on my part. I am not American so Coronado Naval base means nothing to me other than it is a naval base somewhere.

    My first thought was Somali but clearly they cannot be if the base is near the Pacific but they are probably from the other side of the world too, closer to Asia. Now given it is a fictional world, we do not know where and what countries exist etc, I am going to assume Miller is not some racist as some people love to say he is other than it was used for expediency as many writers have done in comics before. I could call Geoff Johns out for using muslim terrorists and a stereotypical view of Khandaq too if I wanted but I didn't and won't because I am not so hypersensitive that the comic is mean to demean muslims or make horrible judgments about people I do not know. If it was done sloppily then editorial did not do their job.

    And if people did not like Lori as a mermaid, that is fine but the need to vilify Miller personally as racist and also woman hater etc imo is a bit much and absurd. It's just like the over blown stuff about the non existent gang rape from last issue.
    Are you at all familiar with Miller's non-DK work? Holy Terror is roundly condemned as Islamophobic and 300 is seen as xenophobic and homophobic. That's the context of this.

    And it has nothing to do with Lori being a mermaid. It has to do with the unnecessary incest plot and the fact that she only exists in the story as literal sexual prize to be won. She's not a character, there's no story or progression. It's a sexist mess.

  3. #303
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I haven't read Miller's other works in regards to the Islamophobia. I concede that to those who have.

    But the incest and prize arguments are reaches. We're talking about a society that is a mix of Greek mythology and ancient monarchy themes. Incest frankly fits right in. Its creepy sure but its supposed to be, its a cultural not at all like our own and based on real life history and myth in which incest simply existed as a thing. And if anything Clark is portrayed as just as much a prize. He's the one drawn by the siren song, he's the one whom is practically deified after helping them, when all he wanted to do was help them with no desire for any of this god/king stuff. And its Lori whom first claims on their first meeting that he will return and be "hers". Clark shares this later on the return but its very much a shared sentiment.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-21-2019 at 02:13 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #304
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I haven't read Miller's other works in regards to the Islamophobia. I concede that to those who have.

    But the incest and prize arguments are reaches. We're talking about a society that is a mix of Greek mythology and ancient monarchy themes. Incest frankly fits right in. Its creepy sure but its supposed to be, its a cultural not at all like our own. And if anything Clark is the prize, not Lori. He's the one drawn by the siren song, he's the one who Lori claims on their first meeting will return and be his. Clark shares this later but its very much a shared sentiment.
    He literally fights her father's champion for her. It's not a reach at all. It's not even implied or subtext. It's the literal plot of the story. And we aren't judging a 2000 year old myth. We're judging a Superman story with incest as a offhand plot point in 2019. It adds nothing to the story nor is it necessary. It's just Miller being Miller.

  5. #305
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That's why I said its a shared sentiment. He's a prize to her, and then he comes back and fights for her hand, basically.

    And that 2000 year old myth is part of the inspiration for the material used and thus using some of those things as a basis for his interpretation is completely in line. He didn't have to do it. But he did, and that's fine. Who cares that its 2019? Game of Thrones had incest all over the place because of its medieval monarchal tones and its been one of the most celebrated things on tv ever. You're simply making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-21-2019 at 02:22 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  6. #306
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deiasilva10 View Post
    I think Miller is fantastically expanding his Superman. I never imagined that that Dark Knight Superman had such a rich past that he had lived sincere and human adventures, had fallen in love and enjoyed life before assuming his Superman cloak. Now I understand a little bit about why he became who he became, the fear of loss and all. Miller is a genius.
    It's different that for sure. Interesting to see DK Superman fleshed out as a boy and teen and now young man.

    So he wore the suit the first time here and Lori coined the moniker Superman.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Some thoughts:

    Clark's relationship with the his superior was interesting. I liked how close he came to really knowing what Clark was, and was cool with it. Also that he knew of at least some of the supernatural elements of the world. I'm not a military man though so I don't know how ridiculous it is to imagine IRL a recruit being able to stand outside after lights out and just chat up your superior. But I'm guessing pretty ridiculous, lol. Oh well.

    The pirates being killed was tough to see, and I would have liked to see Clark's thoughts more on how much it bothered him. It was close to a fully-fleshed out event to cement his distaste for killing, but the reflection could have lasted longer.

    Really liked the design for Lori and all of Atlantis. Very exotic. And I liked the touch that they were basically the Sirens of lore, and that this plays a pretty large role in Clark's infatuation.

    The telepathy comes into play again with him being able to communicate with the mermaids. Its a little OP an ability for me in a standard ongoing setting, but in a stand-alone brings to mind those wacky Silver Age powers.

    Getting the POV of the Kraken was hilarious to me. Fun point of view hearing him complain of a stomach ache after swallowing Clark.

    The narration and dialogue is still weird to me but I realized reading this it almost felt like reading a poem in comic form. If that makes any sense?

    All-in-all and enjoyable read. If only I didn't have to worry about the Bat elements in issue 3.
    Oh the Kraken. Yeah it was funny. Romita's art shone here.

    I like how they call Clark frog too.

    Oh and I liked the way heat vision was described and manifested itself.

  7. #307
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Gah, I meant to mention the heat vision actually and forgot. That was really cool. I especially liked comparing it to the red sun. Come to think of it, has Superman's heat vision ever been compared to or had some connection to Rao before?
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-21-2019 at 02:25 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  8. #308
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That's why I said its a shared sentiment. He's a prize to her, and then he comes back and fights for her hand, basically.

    And that 2000 year old myth is part of the inspiration for the material used and thus using some of those things as a basis for his interpretation is completely in line. He didn't have to do it. But he did, and that's fine. Who cares that its 2019? Game of Thrones had incest all over the place because of its medieval monarchal tones and its been one of the most celebrated things on tv ever. You're simply making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
    Exactly. Miller's Atlanteans are like a lost world under the ocean and inspired more from mythology than what DC has. They do not need to have any western sensibility. From the way they look to the way Poseidon rules. Azz new 52 WW had the Gods with each other.

    Lori isn't happy to embrace tradition and he is her hero the same way he has been for Lois many many many times over all through the years in comics, tv and movies. Lois often drools for him on sight most of the times. No one forgets the Pink panties bit in what supposed to be a "professional" interview in Superman the movie. Miller has said he sees Superman as a romantic figure. This is what he means. Lori also seems to be using whatever magnetic power she has as well to make sure he is her. There is a moment he questions himself as well... what the heck am I doing. He even mentions he can't stop himself.

  9. #309
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Exactly. Miller's Atlanteans are like a lost world under the ocean and inspired more from mythology than what DC has. They do not need to have any western sensibility. From the way they look to the way Poseidon rules. Azz new 52 WW had the Gods with each other.

    Lori isn't happy to embrace tradition and he is her hero the same way he has been for Lois many many many times over all through the years in comics, tv and movies. Lois often drools for him on sight most of the times. No one forgets the Pink panties bit in what supposed to be a "professional" interview in Superman the movie. Miller has said he sees Superman as a romantic figure. This is what he means. Lori also seems to be using whatever magnetic power she has as well to make sure he is her. There is a moment he questions himself as well... what the heck am I doing. He even mentions he can't stop himself.
    I'll have the same criticisms of Lois in the next issue if that's how she's portrayed. Despite what some would like to believe my criticism of this book are not based on some ship nonsense. And there's a vast gulf of space between playful flirting about x-ray vision and having a character reduced to a prize won for beating up a monster. The fact that you equate this with that is pretty telling. It's the same situation as Lana in the last issue. There's no relationship built up with any of the characters, no romance, it's just "wow you're so big and strong, I'm yours!" It's like a 13 year olds fanfic.

    And I just can't wrap my head around using decades old portrayals as some sort of justification for this poorly written book. Yes, there were pretty bad portrayals of Lois 50 years ago. Wonder Woman was also the JSA's secretary. So a book with Wonder Woman as a secretary for a bunch of male heroes would be praise worthy now?
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-21-2019 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #310
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I would disagree there's nothing built up with Lana in issue #1. It was fast, but it was there, and it was not about physical strength. Lana was not interested in Clark just because he was big and strong. She was interested in him before that, and he her, a mutual interest from afar. That interest grew more because of their shared desire to help the bullied, and this is before she ever saw him do anything physically impressive.

    On the other hand, no, There was no real natural relationship build-up here, and imo there wasn't much intent to. Again I think its pretty clearly painted that Clark is mostly moved here by the temptation of what is basically their siren song. And Lori IS just mostly impressed that he helped save people and clean the wreckage of the accident for them and was really strong. This isn't a true love, sustainable thing but I think it was totally intentional for it not to be portrayed that way. At least that is how I read this.

    Basically how I see it: issue #1 was telling a courtship with of two teenagers in a modern American society. Amped up the appropriate degree because this is the boy who will become Superman. Counter, issue #2 was almost like the telling of an ancient arranged courtship. Again with the obligatory amped up nature.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-21-2019 at 03:04 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  11. #311
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I'll have the same criticisms of Lois in the next issue if that's how she's portrayed. Despite what some would like to believe my criticism of this book are not based on some ship nonsense. And there's a vast gulf of space between playful flirting about x-ray vision and having a character reduced to a prize won for beating up a monster. The fact that you equate this with that is pretty telling. It's the same situation as Lana in the last issue. There's no relationship built up with any of the characters, no romance, it's just "wow you're so big and strong, I'm yours!" It's like a 13 year olds fanfic.
    Well given it is not serial story telling...building up all these different phases in his life with different women...Miller would need a mini series. Nothing was wrong with Lana. I had enough to know they knew each other for years and fell for each other. In fact your complaints are odd given that is exactly what they often give Lana in many origins.

    Lori is like a dream sequence. A fantasy.

    If you want pages and pages of build up with every female he is with in what will amt of 1 graphic novel where a guy goes from a baby to a man you are going to be hard pressed because the relationships are just one aspects to the protagonist.

    What do you mean "pretty telling?"

    Pretty telling what?

  12. #312
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I would disagree there's nothing built up with Lana in issue #1. It was fast, but it was there, and it was not about physical strength. Lana was not interested in Clark just because he was big and strong. She was interested in him before that, and he her, a mutual interest from afar. That interest grew more because of their shared desire to help the bullied, and this is before she ever saw him do anything physically impressive.

    On the other hand, no, There was no real natural relationship build-up here, and imo there wasn't much intent to. Again I think its pretty clearly painted that Clark is mostly moved here by the temptation of what is basically their siren song. And Lori IS just mostly impressed that he helped save people and clean the wreckage of the accident for them and was really strong. This isn't a true love, sustainable thing but I think it was totally intentional for it not to be portrayed that way. At least that is how I read this.
    I don't know if I read wrong. Clark mentions it is not everyone who can say they were spooning with a mermaid when he packing up to leave the seals. When he met Lori the first time, he did not do anything like that. He just helped and promised to come back. And she vowed that he will to herself. He knew where to go when she told him go to their secret place when he returned. Were they meeting up or is she playing with his head? I mean I know she has enchanted him with her siren like abilities.

  13. #313
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Me reading Superman: Year One #1: Dare I...hope?

    Me reading Superman: Year One #2: No. No I do not.
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  14. #314
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Well given it is not serial story telling...building up all these different phases in his life with different women...Miller would need a mini series. Nothing was wrong with Lana. I had enough to know they knew each other for years and fell for each other. In fact your complaints are odd given that is exactly what they often give Lana in many origins.

    Lori is like a dream sequence. A fantasy.

    If you want pages and pages of build up with every female he is with in what will amt of 1 graphic novel where a guy goes from a baby to a man you are going to be hard pressed because the relationships are just one aspects to the protagonist.

    What do you mean "pretty telling?"

    Pretty telling what?
    He has a miniseries. This very one. With 64 oversized pages in each issue. He spent 3 pages on Lana's attempted rape versus like 1 page and 2 panels preceding that with hardly any indication that they had spoken to each other before let alone had any sort of relationship. Their romantic relationship doesn't exist prior to him saving her from being raped and it just springs right into everything after. Lana and Clark have had their relationship portrayed far better in any number of stories. It doesn't take a miniseries to establish this stuff, just a writer who has an interest in it.

    I'd settle for like 5 pages of build up at this point. We get nothing or something so amateurish and tropey sequences lifted off some fanfic. This series was supposed to be and exploration of Superman's growth THROUGH his relationships with these three women. It's not a subplot. Really what Miller meant was he'd have him bang a bunch of these women in the books.

    And it's telling that you equate relationship building flirting - the type of stuff that actually does build a relationship and chemistry between two characters - with the nonsense we're getting here. It's not equivalent at all. There's actually a build up there and interaction. Here he shows up, shows off, and gets to bang a mermaid.

  15. #315
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    So I just got done reading it and....yeeeeeaaaah. There's some stuff we need to sort of hash out here. With each of these books it feels like there are a lot of good ideas, just poorly executed. The training was good. Or at least decent. The dialogue wasn't as bad as the last issue but that's not saying much. Him becoming a sniper who refuses to kill is actually a good idea. Even the scene with the grenade was clever. That's where the positives end, unfortunately. The pirates are clearly meant to be muslim stereotypes and Miller clearly hasn't gotten over 9/11. Or really moved on all that much from Holy Terror. The Atlantis stuff is, unfortunately, every Miller stereotype there is. As we all feared, Lori is a "prize" to be won. And the incest with her father was wholly unnecessary. Even the way the Navy just casually knows that mermaids exist is disturbing. "Yeah, some guys just walk out there and join them. No big." Even Clark just walking into the ocean after he leaves the Navy seemed dumb. I feel like the Atlantis stuff could be removed altogether and it would still be a good story.

    I defended the treatment of Lana last issue because I didn't see it as typically problematic as Miller's normal treatment of women. Lana at least seemed to have her own autonomy. I can't do that here. Lori is just another damsel in distress needing a surface man to save her. And while Clark isn't the typical alpha male jerk Miller normally writes, it's still very sexist. Miller needs someone to rein in his worst excesses and execute his ideas better than he can. It wouldn't be so bad having Clark rescue her from a marriage she didn't want or something like that but, again, that's not how this played out. If he beat her father he "got" her. He "earned" her. That's not a rescue, that's a dowry. "If you beat the Kraken, you can have my daughter". Clark is better than that. Mainstream, and most other versions of Superman wouldn't go along with that. I feel like Miller is trying to do better but he's still decades behind the rest of the world. And he's not going to catch up anytime soon. I'm still looking forward to the next issue but not nearly as much as I was last time. I get that DC feels they owe Miller a debt. But he's just too behind the times. If you're going to hire him, give him a co-writer that knows what to keep and what to shoot down.

    Each of these books have good ideas in them; Clark being a protector of the bullied and outcast kids in school, Clark joining the military and finding out he can't kill. But that doesn't outweigh the negatives. Of which there are just too many here. I wouldn't mind even seeing some of these ideas being incorporated into the mainstream origin. But this can't be his mainstream origin. This vision is just too retrograde. Miler is not the writer he used to be. Essen in Batman: Year One was a complete person. So was Mrs. Gordon. There is none of that here. Even Robin in DKR was more of a person than the grown women in Miller's modern works. I'd love to see Miller get back to that but I fear he just doesn't see what the problem is and is too far behind the times to catch up.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

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