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  1. #271
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Another collection of lazy, offensive, racist stereotypes and tropes, and women who exist only to be saved and won as sexual prizes. And mermaid incest as the cherry on top.
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-21-2019 at 05:48 AM.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Another collection of lazy, offensive, racist stereotypes and tropes, and women who exist only to be saved and won as sexual prizes. And mermaid incest as the cherry on top.
    There literally was no seen female character in this issue that wasn't threatened with sexual violence at some point. And of course while Pa Kent got mentioned a few times, Ma wasn't mentioned once.
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  3. #273
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Another collection of lazy, offensive, racist stereotypes and tropes, and women who exist only to be saved and won as sexual prizes. And mermaid incest as the cherry on top.
    Oh good. I was wondering if someone had read it yet.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  4. #274
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Another collection of lazy, offensive, racist stereotypes and tropes, and women who exist only to be saved and won as sexual prizes. And mermaid incest as the cherry on top.
    Poseidon, a Greek god, wanted to make his daughter his queen. Is that really a surprise?
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  5. #275
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Poseidon, a Greek god, wanted to make his daughter his queen. Is that really a surprise?
    From a Frank Miller comic? No. Not at all. What does it add to the story though? Nothing. Shock value sexual violence or deviancy for literally no narrative purpose and treated as a throw away plot point.

  6. #276
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Again, I can't say it's shocking... from anyone. Those Greek gods are freaky man. It makes me sad that writers like Bendis and Miller are so naturally divisive (largely by content evaluation, sure) that it's damned if they do or don't. The plot wasn't throwaway, Poseidon was shown as Superman's first villain here, violently possessive and addicted to adulation as Greek gods are commonly depicted. He's not a great guy at all because it's important for the reader to understand but the setup of Clark not being a soldier or a king.

    Kurtzberg is the chief character for the Navy sequence, which I loved because it does happen to fit the way Miller writes. I'm not sure of his personal zeal or knowledge, wouldn't assume, but his writing tics can practically carry a Full Metal Jacket cartoon series. Anyway it's clear that Kirby is a good guy but what life requires, the life he obeys, can be really ugly. Killing here is not right with Clark. Those pirates... I guess having headdress makes them a target for controversy but it's not like we even know where they're from or what their cause is. I think making them vaguely Russian or something is pretty much the same thing, a stereotype based on a likely description of people who come into conflict with our military.

    As for the treatment of women... if you really want to you can go in on all star. Oh Lois is a prize, regan needs saving, Cat's ratchet, and the other two women are henchman. Half of this issue was Navy basic training, not the most enlightened setting I can imagine. I don't mean to say it's okay not employing solid women characters but I think it only looks deliberate if you want it to.
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  7. #277
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Again, I can't say it's shocking... from anyone. Those Greek gods are freaky man. It makes me sad that writers like Bendis and Miller are so naturally divisive (largely by content evaluation, sure) that it's damned if they do or don't. The plot wasn't throwaway, Poseidon was shown as Superman's first villain here, violently possessive and addicted to adulation as Greek gods are commonly depicted. He's not a great guy at all because it's important for the reader to understand but the setup of Clark not being a soldier or a king.

    Kurtzberg is the chief character for the Navy sequence, which I loved because it does happen to fit the way Miller writes. I'm not sure of his personal zeal or knowledge, wouldn't assume, but his writing tics can practically carry a Full Metal Jacket cartoon series. Anyway it's clear that Kirby is a good guy but what life requires, the life he obeys, can be really ugly. Killing here is admonished. Those pirates... I guess having headdress makes them a target for controversy but it's not like we even know where they're from or what their cause is. I think making them vaguely Russian or something is pretty much the same thing, a stereotype based on a likely description of people who come into conflict with our military.

    As for the treatment of women... if you really want to you can go in on all star. Oh Lois is a prize, regan needs saving, Cat's ratchet, and the other two women are henchman. Half of this issue was Navy basic training, not the most enlightened setting I can imagine. I don't mean to say it's okay not employing solid women characters but I think it only looks deliberate if you want it to.
    What exactly in Miller's decades of work gives him the benefit of any doubt on any of the above? Poseidon can be a villain addicted to adulation without intending to marry and sleep with his daughter. Incest adds literally nothing to the story that wasn't already there. Lori again, the purported - by the authors own words - central storytelling point of this exploration of Superman through is love interests, essentially decides to bang Superman when he saves their city. Nothing deeper than that. There's no relationship, no character exploration, nothing. He gets to bang mermaids because he's big strong Superman. There are no women characters in this book at all.

    Lois in All Star Superman at least has some agency and a character arc. All Star has its issues as well, but there is an actual relationship portrayed and implied. She's not a glorified sex toy he wins for being Superman.

    And the pirates? Come on, you think Miller was going for that big threat of Sikh pirates or something? This is the guy who wrote Holy Terror. They are muslim terrorist charactertures. Turbans and all. It is deliberate. It's not even subtle. You are willfully making excuses for something that is blatantly obvious.

    This is again fanfic level craft.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    And the pirates? Come on, you think Miller was going for that big threat of Sikh pirates or something? This is the guy who wrote Holy Terror. They are muslim terrorist charactertures. Turbans and all. It is deliberate. It's not even subtle. You are willfully making excuses for something that is blatantly obvious.
    Agreed. Miller doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for interpretation here. Denying the problematic nature of that scene is really to be in denial.

    And additionally on the navy. Where the hell were the female recruits? Navy's freakin' co-ed.
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  9. #279
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Agreed. Miller doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for interpretation here. Denying the problematic nature of that scene is really to be in denial.

    And additionally on the navy. Where the hell were the female recruits? Navy's freakin' co-ed.
    Anyone with a modicum of self awareness who had written the universally reviled screed that was Holy Terror, would I don't know, maybe go a little more subtle? Or say to Romita hey why don't you make the pirates a little more generically bad guy than glaringly obvious Islamic Terrorists.

    Again, it is all unnecessary. There is nothing about that scene the requires them to be that obvious of a stereotype. Nothing. Their nationality, religion, motive, etc. aren't relevant or discussed. It's just lazy ugliness for the sake of it.
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-21-2019 at 09:01 AM.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Anyone with a modicum of self awareness who had written the universally reviled screed that was Holy Terror, would I don't know, maybe go a little more subtle? Or say to Romita hey why don't you make the pirates a little more generically bad guy than glaringly obvious Islamic Terrorists.

    Again, it is all unnecessary. There is nothing about that scene the requires them to be that obvious of a stereotype. Nothing. Their nationality, religion, motive, etc. aren't relevant or discussed. It's just lazy ugliness for the sake of it.
    Yeah, frankly, I'm disgusted most at DC editorial for not putting a stop to that immediately.
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  11. #281
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    There is a kind of surreal feel when I read this issue. Miller embraced the Greek mythology and Lori is depicted like a mermaid/siren of myth. It is almost as if no man including Clark can help himself. Atlantis feeds into fantasy and dreams. Lori is so perfect she is like a dream to this young guy stepping into the world...and this whole different world under the sea. Clark follows through the whole fantasy troupe and he defeats his foes, wins her heart and the throne...and he forgets. He forgets everything. Including his home and the girl back home and the surface world. Everything his commanding officer warned him about. The guy who wanted to change the world has forgotten it. It's different and yet familiar. I am sure decades ago Superman often got caught up in worlds and fell in love with beautiful women etc. It almost is like a cliffhanger because we know he has to leave eventually. Quite interested in how he snaps out of this or how he leaves this place he is bewitched by and this woman he is smitten by.

    The navy bits were okay. Nothing especially compelling. Other than he learns how to work with others and he sees how hard regular humans have to work ...earn where they are...and also he learns he is not comfortable with killing. The latter is the most important thing because he realizes he cannot do it.
    Last edited by hellacre; 08-21-2019 at 09:53 AM.

  12. #282
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    What exactly in Miller's decades of work gives him the benefit of any doubt on any of the above? Poseidon can be a villain addicted to adulation without intending to marry and sleep with his daughter. Incest adds literally nothing to the story that wasn't already there. Lori again, the purported - by the authors own words - central storytelling point of this exploration of Superman through is love interests, essentially decides to bang Superman when he saves their city. Nothing deeper than that. There's no relationship, no character exploration, nothing. He gets to bang mermaids because he's big strong Superman. There are no women characters in this book at all.
    I'm pretty relieved Miller skipped dialogue between them and left interaction up to the implication of captions, because I don't think romantic dialogue would have gone so well. The idea with Lori is the same as ever, that their rapport carries and bridges the gap between them to quickly lead to romance. The difference here is mainly love at first sight after hours of disaster relief versus catching her wheelchair going down a path or something.

    The big hero always has the princess run into his arms in a way that can only be described as a fantastic wishdream. Cool when others can build something better, but I can understand and tolerate the millions of other examples. Look forward to more than this with Lois or Diana though.

    Lois in All Star Superman at least has some agency and a character arc. All Star has its issues as well, but there is an actual relationship portrayed and implied. She's not a glorified sex toy he wins for being Superman.
    All Star is a much longer story and Lois is the second most important character. I'm not picking on it, but you can't say she isn't literally a prize between the three men.

    And the pirates? Come on, you think Miller was going for that big threat of Sikh pirates or something? This is the guy who wrote Holy Terror. They are muslim terrorist charactertures. Turbans and all. It is deliberate. It's not even subtle. You are willfully making excuses for something that is blatantly obvious.

    This is again fanfic level craft.
    The shemagh would make it obviously a middle eastern group, but that's vague. Some stories will give you a diverse urban gang (lol) to be on the safe side, and some stories won't. As someone of middle eastern descent it's just too vague for me to get hung up on. Is it a particular fan fiction for a guy who wrote a particularly bad story with something similar? Maybe, but I'm not going to read that one, just this one. If he hasn't been blacklisted like Card, Landis, or Syaf, I'll just assume it's not a dealbreaker and judge this story on its own.
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  13. #283
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    There is a kind of surreal feel when I read this issue. Miller embraced the Greek mythology and Lori is depicted like a mermaid/siren of myth. It is almost as if no man including Clark can help himself. Atlantis feeds into fantasy and dreams. Lori is so perfect she is like a dream to this young guy stepping into the world...and this whole different world under the sea. Clark follows through the whole fantasy troupe and he defeats his foes, wins her heart and the throne...and he forgets. He forgets everything. Including his home and the girl back home and the surface world. Everything his commanding officer warned him about. The guy who wanted to change the world has forgotten it. It's different and yet familiar. I am sure decades ago Superman often got caught up in worlds and fell in love with beautiful women etc. It almost is like a cliffhanger because we know he has to leave eventually. Quite interested in how he snaps out of this or how he leaves this place he is bewitched by and this woman he is smitten by.
    You know this could be commentary on how Superman changed in the Silver Age after the CCA. He wasn't the guy fighting for the little guy anymore. But more of a Sci fi protagonist in a world of wonder. He lost his way. Which fits with Miller's views on Superman.

  14. #284
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    Well, this is still a Frank Miller comic all right. There's the overly-melodramatic narration that at times keeps me out of the story along with the all so lovely sexist portrayal of women and stereotypical depiction of terrorists that turns out to be kinda racist.

    That being said, I do enjoy the depiction of Clark and how he realizes that life in the military is not for him because of his beliefs. The inclusion of classic obscure characters like Lori Lemaris is welcomed and yes, the narration can be sometimes fitting to make events like the fight with the Kraken bigger in scale and the escalation is well-handled too.

    JRJR's art is simply great with a lot of polish and precise storytelling. I think I liked this despite of the problems but I'm not going to deny that some of them are really problematic.

  15. #285
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Things plural. It basically doubled (or tripled) down on the all problems last issue, plus it throws in a scene of Clark and his Navy buddies taking down some Islamic pirates, which, given Frank Miller's history, you can pretty much guess how that goes.
    Piracy is a huge problem esp around the African coast. Yes he probably went with the most common know ie. Somali pirates but I assume that is because the base Clark is at is nearest to that stuff. Piracy is so bad you have NATO involved to try to protect ships. Also Clark took no one down. Yes we could get into why piracy is on the rise etc but we could also talk about many other things that Superman and Clark as a reporter does not give a crap about because he does not deal with a world of grays. In an ideal world, there would be no piracy because it is sadly driven by corruption, poverty and bad governments. But fact is, it's a problem that naval forces have to deal with and Miller went with the most glaring. Oil tankers sinking are very harmless and Superman saving everyone makes fans feel better I guess. But dealing with real people and seeing what they have to do is troublesome. Let us not pretend it does not happen. Also Romita and Miller spoke to the navy seals. Did research. I personally do not see this as an issue of religion or Islamophobia. I come from a part of the world sometimes our own fishermen have to deal with this...and pirates kill, steal and sink their vessels. And yes if our coast guard had to engage they will use lethal force. It is not ideal at any means, it is what it is.

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