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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Can’t believe people applauded for Damned, it was one of the most boring stories I’ve ever read. Without the Batpenis no one would even remember it.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Can’t believe people applauded for Damned, it was one of the most boring stories I’ve ever read. Without the Batpenis no one would even remember it.
    Honestly, a lot of times people applaud to be polite because they like the creator. The lack of applause for Miller is more telling than the applause is for Damned. Miller and his work is not as popular anymore with the more progressive and modern comics crowd and I think that’s become abundantly clear. Miller has a very specific kind of fan as his niche and they are a dying breed in comics.

  3. #213
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Yes and how many times has promotion for a comic book panned out exactly as it was told? Just how many times has superman really left Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen to die? You people are too easy.

    Also the applause comment says more about batmans popularity over superman more then anything else.
    Romita is talking about what he drew and his favorite scene in the book. It's possible he's just making stuff up, but given the creative team I doubt it.

    And Rebirth happened because Didio and Lee saw a sharp drop off in fan engagement with the New 52. So to the extent their die hard fans at the general DC Publisher panel don't care about Frank Miller's latest and greatest says a little about how this is being received.

  4. #214
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    I’ve never been a fan of Superman and Wonder Woman, but I hardly see the problem with any of this.
    Admiral of a fleet of ships—relationships!
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  5. #215
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    If Batman comes at Superman with aggression as he has several times in the past then Superman can and should put him in his place. The Batman writers and the Batman fans do not have this hang up about the conflict between these characters the Superman fans and writers have and they've take complete advantage of that. It does Superman no good whatsoever to be hesitant about acknowledging the simple fact that The World Finest went up in smoke with COIE. They've since then taken every advantage possible to push themselves up at the expense of the Superman franchise and to sit here and lean further into the Super-Jesus angle is naive. Superman is not Jesus and hes not here to stand around and be a martyr for someone else to make a realization about the error of their ways.

    There is no good message to send to anyone to have someone sit around and let them knock the crap out of you while trying to show that you're taking a higher path. Bruce is little more than the exact same corrupt billionaires Superman use to knock around back in the day and if he does come at Superman with hostility then it's perfectly appropriate that Superman give him the same and then some. No Superman from 1938 to 1987 would have ever considered being a doormat to Batman or any other hero and wouldn't have expected anyone to be one for him.
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  6. #216
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I knew from the moment I read it that people would exaggerate again.

    Here's how its going to go down: Superman is going to get ready to punch Batman, Wonder Woman will block it, and it will be pointed out that Superman was going to pull the punch anyway as to not do any serious harm. Its not like these two haven't come to or come close to blows before in a situation in which its explained how it could happen without Superman just killing the guy with a finger flick. It happens all the time, canon or otherwise. This will be more of the same.

    The kill remark is JRJR embellishing. If he's not I'll eat my hat. Seriously, if he's not joking and Superman's really going for the kill, I'll own it and disavow that scene. But its highly unlikely. From issue one, we already have a clear indicator of what this Superman does to people he's fighting. And surprise, its like most versions of Superman: its not kill nor even seriously maim. Its contain. Look at what he did to those who tried to assault Lana. You don't think he was pissed inside and could have let that out in a much worse way if he wasn't who he is? But he just contained them. If Batman pisses Superman off and he tries to hit him, it will be a toned down punch Bruce could take that Diana probably wouldn't even have needed to block in the first place.

    But, this is also going to be an issue that might have a slight romantic dynamic between Clark and Diana. That alone will be enough to have ANY scene involving them painted to be some serious gender issue, which will be laughable as it always is as its based on nothing more than shipping preference. I mean, would there be people complaining if it was Lois? Probably, I've known people who just don't like the character no matter what for whatever reason (the reality is there'd be no problem with this either, only it'd definitely have to be pointed out that he pulled the punch to make it so she could do that without being seriously harmed). But there's people complaining that its Diana, so I mean, what's the difference? Really it'd be so much easier if everyone on all sides just admitted that. Take a page from anime fans. They're at least honest. "This is who I like together, here's who I don't like together". And that's that. Without having to jimmy in sexism, misogyny and a bunch of other unrelated crap with it to bolster it.

    Speaking of which, the attempted narrative that this is a universally hated book and concept is falling flat. Sales for #1 were very good. Cheers to anyone who just has no desire to read this on any level and doesn't. But these attempts to already label it a failure and the worst comic book in a long time is just turning out patently false so I don't see the point in trying to manufacture it as being a tangible disaster when its quite demonstrably not already.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-22-2019 at 11:54 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #217
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I'm critical of the handling of a lot of things here independent of any handling of Wonder Woman. If Wonder Woman wasn't even appearing I'd have the same criticisms of this book that I've had now. I know some people don't agree that the Lana stuff was a big deal, plenty in this tread have said so, or excuse anything Miller does because it's "art" or whatever, but I remain very critical of how all that was handled and presented and I haven't heard anything to convince me that that interpretation is off base at all. "it could have been worse" isn't a defense. And no one has addressed the points about how it plays into the "romance" presented either. This isn't an appreciation thread. I bought the book, read it, and can criticize it as much as people can praise or shrug at things.

    And it admittedly does annoy me that a book that was marketed as exploring the romances of Lana, Lori, and Lois unconnected from the DKverse is having Wonder Woman shoehorned in and retroactively has been dumped into the Millerverse. After it was preordered. I wouldn't have bought it had it been marketed that way from the get go. It was a bait and switch basically. But I'll own that. But its not like the criticism with Wonder Woman is unwarranted given how Miller has presented things in the past. That's how he views it, the "fertile" joke is from DKII - that's what he wrote. Same with the "taking the prize" comment, I believe that was either DKII or III. You can already see the set up for it knowing where this is going. We know how this plays out with him. Criticisms of Miller's work for sexism and handling of women isn't unfounded. His handling of Lana and Ma Kent here are like textbook. You can say you don't mind it or can look past it, but it's not made up or manufactured.

    And I know you don't go there Sacred, but if the roles were reversed and Lois was stopping him from killing Batman, do you honestly think there wouldn't be criticism of how weak and codependent DC is making Superman look for letting a lowly human woman even think she could stop him? The scene where they flew into London in Action a few issues back set off people. I don't think calling attention to that double standard in the praise for this book is out of line in a discussion of it.

    Admittedly, it is a little petty to point out and enjoy the humor of Frank Miller's big Superman Opus being met with weak or no applause at a con as big as SDCC. It's even funnier in the context of Didio's later complaints on how reprints are outselling the new books. It's like they are so close to a realization, but can't quite put the last bit together.
    Last edited by Yoda; 07-22-2019 at 12:04 PM.

  8. #218
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't excuse the Lana stuff because its art or whatever, I don't even think it needs excusing in the first place. It'd be no different if it was Miller or any other writer. A character got in trouble and the hero saved the day. Its a common trope but beyond that I had no issue. I also don't use the defense it could have been worse, as it wasn't bad at all in my opinion. Now that's just me. I know we as fans have preferred writers, or writers we don't like. That just comes with the territory. But as fans there are also writers who we really have no strong preference on either way. This is where I am with Miller. I didn't like what he did with Superman in the original twol DK books. But I'll read a story he writes if the concept intrigues me. That's basically where I'm at with him, so I'm not approaching this from a POV of needing to defend the writer of which I have a strong stake in. I don't at all here. I'm not judging those who do, like I said I do have my favorite writers and those that are close to an automatic no-go no matter what, its not just a factor for me in this particular case.

    I get where the criticisms of how he'll handle WW come from based on the past. Maybe he'll handle her just as terribly. I don't know. But I know how he's handled Superman thus far in this book, and thus far he is not at all the type of character to view anyone as a prize to be won. If that turns, that'll be disappointing, but nothing suggests it yet. Really what I liked about Issue #1 was that it felt completely disconnected from DK. He says its part of the verse, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it. I hope that keeps up. I also thought he wrote Lana fine. She wasn't just a damsel in distress, the only reason she got in trouble is because the delinquents were specifically ticked off that she was the only one being pro-active in trying to stop their crap outside of Clark himself. Martha on the other hand, she indeed was just kinda there, no big role compared to Jonathan like a lot of other tales. That was disappointing. So going in on how he'll handle Lori or WW or Lois? There's both hope but I can imagine trepidation as well.

    And yeah, I know ther would be some people who would complain about Lois being put into this situation. As I edited in above (surely way too late), there are people who just don't like her. I've seen that enough to know they exist. There is inherent bias in most things, just like there's a lot who hate the idea of Superman and Wonder Woman having any sort of romantic based interaction at all that they just won't like anything that occurs in that arena. I get that too. As far as the situation, Superman vs. Batman? Its entirely played. I have little emotion toward it at all anymore whatsoever. But Superman throwing a punch at the guy is not offensive. Again Superman has thrown a punch or just in general been quite physical with a normal person tons of times before. The idea that he's above that is just not accurate. If one wishes he consistently was, that's one thing, I can respect that wish. But he isn't. It happens; in fact more often than it doesn't. But even in those instances he goes out of his way to not use so much force that he could really do major damage (outside of the early golden age where his power levels were that where he didn't have to pull back that much anyway. He could hit a guy more easily without having to worry about any of that as he wasn't so powerful yet as he'd later become). And again since I've already seen in this book that this Clark approaches things the same way, its hard for me to imagine JRJR's words not just mostly being him joking around. They'll fight, but I don't expect Superman to be so reckless where its pointed out he really was intending to break the guy's neck. But in the event I am wrong, I'll very much disavow it. I can buy a young, inexperienced Clark Kent making a mistake of using too much force to hurt someone more than he intended. But since we've already seen the lessons of not doing so in practice in issue #1, in a very serious situation to boot, it will not make sense to have him do it when he's already in the suit and already Superman just because Batman is being an asshole. Neither could I be down with it being just flat out coherent intent. To be continued in this case.

    As far as the lack of applause thing, in general while I don't think it speaks to much, it is kinda funny to imagine. Had I been there though I'd have gotten embarrassed, I'm not good with awkward public moments, even if I'm just in the general area and not involved, lol.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-22-2019 at 12:39 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  9. #219
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I knew from the moment I read it that people would exaggerate again.

    Here's how its going to go down: Superman is going to get ready to punch Batman, Wonder Woman will block it, and it will be pointed out that Superman was going to pull the punch anyway as to not do any serious harm. Its not like these two haven't come to or come close to blows before in a situation in which its explained how it could happen without Superman just killing the guy with a finger flick. It happens all the time, canon or otherwise. This will be more of the same.

    The kill remark is JRJR embellishing. If he's not I'll eat my hat. Seriously, if he's not joking and Superman's really going for the kill, I'll own it and disavow that scene. But its highly unlikely. From issue one, we already have a clear indicator of what this Superman does to people he's fighting. And surprise, its like most versions of Superman: its not kill nor even seriously maim. Its contain. Look at what he did to those who tried to assault Lana. You don't think he was pissed inside and could have let that out in a much worse way if he wasn't who he is? But he just contained them. If Batman pisses Superman off and he tries to hit him, it will be a toned down punch Bruce could take that Diana probably wouldn't even have needed to block in the first place.

    But, this is also going to be an issue that might have a slight romantic dynamic between Clark and Diana. That alone will be enough to have ANY scene involving them painted to be some serious gender issue, which will be laughable as it always is as its based on nothing more than shipping preference. I mean, would there be people complaining if it was Lois? Probably, I've known people who just don't like the character no matter what for whatever reason (the reality is there'd be no problem with this either, only it'd definitely have to be pointed out that he pulled the punch to make it so she could do that without being seriously harmed). But there's people complaining that its Diana, so I mean, what's the difference? Really it'd be so much easier if everyone on all sides just admitted that. Take a page from anime fans. They're at least honest. "This is who I like together, here's who I don't like together". And that's that. Without having to jimmy in sexism, misogyny and a bunch of other unrelated crap with it to bolster it.

    Speaking of which, the attempted narrative that this is a universally hated book and concept is falling flat. Sales for #1 were very good. Cheers to anyone who just has no desire to read this on any level and doesn't. But these attempts to already label it a failure and the worst comic book in a long time is just turning out patently false so I don't see the point in trying to manufacture it as being a tangible disaster when its quite demonstrably not already.
    Sorry, SK. But to me, you're giving Miller far too much credit. I don't think he deserves the kind of faith you're giving him, and you'll forgive me for not thinking we're anywhere close to the same page when it comes to what is okay or defensible for Superman. We seem to have very different ideas about what constitutes good characterization for him and for other characters, like Wonder Woman. Finally, sales don't equate to quality or love. Sometimes people order things or buy things with an expectation that it will be one way, but end up disappointed. I think Superman and his fans deserve better than this crap.

  10. #220
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I'm vaguely reminded of the 1970's Superman/Spider-man crossover when they were fighting (because comic crossovers) and after a while, Superman got so annoyed he decided to punch Spider-man. Then he realized his punch would cause Spider-man's brain matter to end up splattered all over the street, so he pulled his punch at the last moment (but the impact of his punch on the air around Spidey's face was enough to KO or close to KO Spider-man; I loved it when writers were more clever with Superman's abilities...). Anyway, I tend to think that as much of an annoyance Spider-man can be to his adversaries, Batman brings irritating to a whole 'nother level. I guess I'll actually wait to see the panel to see how ridiculous it is, but for about as long as I've cared about Superman comics, even lesser-powered beings who have no chance against Supes can irritate him enough to need some kind of restraint, mental or physical, from punching the guy.

  11. #221
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Sorry, SK. But to me, you're giving Miller far too much credit. I don't think he deserves the kind of faith you're giving him, and you'll forgive me for not thinking we're anywhere close to the same page when it comes to what is okay or defensible for Superman. We seem to have very different ideas about what constitutes good characterization for him and for other characters, like Wonder Woman. Finally, sales don't equate to quality or love. Sometimes people order things or buy things with an expectation that it will be one way, but end up disappointed. I think Superman and his fans deserve better than this crap.
    I have absolutley no qualms with anyone who feels this way. I can only go off of what I've seen so far though and what I've seen so far out of Superman himself in this story has been pretty much everything Superman is supposed to be. Those who disagree on that one, fair enough. Only oddity I've encountered thus far is the baby telepathy, or if it was even meant to be that. I'm still unsure if that was just Kal-El being aware enough to know that he wants this man to take him, and aware enough to know he's a cute and innocent baby and that a good man would not just leave him behind.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-22-2019 at 12:34 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    The only rationale I can accept for Superman using force against human adversaries is if those adversaries pose a genuine threat to the safety of others or perhaps even to themselves. Otherwise, just being annoyed or irritated does not work as a defense of violence. I prefer a Superman who acts more like this:







    Clark: I wanted to hit that kid. I wanted to hit him bad.
    Jonathan: I know you did. I mean...part of me even wanted you to, but then what? Make you feel any better? You just have to decide what kind of man you want to grow up to be, Clark. Because whoever that man is, good character or bad, he's...He's gonna change the world.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    The only rationale I can accept for Superman using force against human adversaries is if those adversaries pose a genuine threat to the safety of others or perhaps even to themselves. Otherwise, just being annoyed or irritated does not work as a defense of violence. I prefer a Superman who acts more like this:







    Clark: I wanted to hit that kid. I wanted to hit him bad.
    Jonathan: I know you did. I mean...part of me even wanted you to, but then what? Make you feel any better? You just have to decide what kind of man you want to grow up to be, Clark. Because whoever that man is, good character or bad, he's...He's gonna change the world.
    I agree. I also can’t believe it’s 2019 and apparently DC is so creatively bankrupt that we are even debating this. What is a Batman vs. Superman fight even doing in a Superman origin to begin with? I get the idea that people think Miller has to “show Superman’s side” but it’s so telling that, ultimately, it still just comes back to this crap. This kind of story feels dated and uncomfortable but, then again, so did the entirety of the 1st issue.

  14. #224
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I agree. I also can’t believe it’s 2019 and apparently DC is so creatively bankrupt that we are even debating this. What is a Batman vs. Superman fight even doing in a Superman origin to begin with? I get the idea that people think Miller has to “show Superman’s side” but it’s so telling that, ultimately, it still just comes back to this crap. This kind of story feels dated and uncomfortable but, then again, so did the entirety of the 1st issue.
    Yes. Of all the things worthy of exploring or highlighting in a new, and what one would hope, modern origin, these things are just not even close to being on the top of my list or on any list. It all seems so regressive to me. There even could be a way of doing some of this stuff that could be subverted to say something good and meaningful, but Miller is not the guy to pull that off.

  15. #225
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    Funny I remember this time when batman v superman came out and I was criticized for not giving Zack Snyder enough credit even though his film was pretty much a justification to have batman and superman punch each other or lift pages from the death of superman which is just a book of action panels with superman punching or being punched by a giant mindless creature.

    I also remember the very film being defended by people on this thread complaining yet I wonder why as they seem to agreed with what Snyder did even though he admitted he lifted his scenes straight from millers book, and to go so far as to even post Gifs from that very film yet I see them turn up their nose at millars work.

    I ask what could be so different? What difference is there between what both these men have created that I can't put my finger on? Even though zack pretty much admits he based his entire film off of millars work.

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