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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Exactly.

    Miller makes people nervous. I get that. Fact I love he does that. Miller is one of the few writers we have left that is unapologetic and isn't going to jump every time the politically correct scream at him to be that way. Like him or hate him, that is how a creator should be. You write yr vision. People can be free to like to dislike. But for them to make this wild exaggerations is baffling to me. I am not an American and I come from a country where we had colonization and in no way did I feel Clark wanted to sign up to go show the savages the american way is the best way kind of a thing. All countries have military in today's world. People join up for so many reasons and some have good intentions and we know Clark is not going to stay in the forces but it will no doubt teach him the way the machinery and world works. An important aspect for Superman to understand. Because he and the League do do some policing of the world themselves eventually. This as you say does feel in line with his roots. And all these exaggerated complaints speaks of another agenda going on or a determination just to be negative everything Miller writes. Some things in this we have seen sure because it is an origin story but there are some real interesting ideas in this and being Black Label means Miller is in no way obliged to tread the same ground. Canon is still there for those who want a stereotypical farming childhood that is generally a saccharin blur then jump to Metropolis. This delves a little deeper in Clark's psyche.
    I agree.
    I'd also say that I really can't get into the specific criticism against military forces in a superhero book mostly for one reason: almost every major DC superhero is somehow related to a military background (and EVERY Marvel hero is, especially in their most internationally beloved incarnation, that is the Avengers movies). Superman has waved the American flag more than every other superhero for God's sake. Sometimes it goes wrong (Superman 27-28 by Tomasi could be one of the most horrifyingly grandiloquent Superman stories I've ever read) and sometimes they get it right. Miller got it right IMHO. It's not about the American country, or even the army as a patriotic institution. It's mostly about the experience, the self-discovery or even the purely physical experience as far as I can see. I was not born in the US and I am a convinced pacifist, but I am not blind to the human experience Miller is trying to tell. I see his point. This is basically a James Cameron Superman.
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  2. #17
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    I agree.
    I'd also say that I really can't get into the specific criticism against military forces in a superhero book mostly for one reason: almost every major DC superhero is somehow related to a military background (and EVERY Marvel hero is, especially in their most internationally beloved incarnation, that is the Avengers movies). Superman has waved the American flag more than every other superhero for God's sake. Sometimes it goes wrong (Superman 27-28 by Tomasi could be one of the most horrifyingly grandiloquent Superman stories I've ever read) and sometimes they get it right. Miller got it right IMHO. It's not about the American country, or even the army as a patriotic institution. It's mostly about the experience, the self-discovery or even the purely physical experience as far as I can see. I was not born in the US and I am a convinced pacifist, but I am not blind to the human experience Miller is trying to tell. I see his point. This is basically a James Cameron Superman.
    Very well said.

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    So why shoud Miller write what Waid already did? What is the point to rehash something when the point of this line is to explore something that could easily have been a choice for Clark?
    He shouldn't write what Waid did already but he shouldn't have written another Superman origin story period, especially one that begins in Smallville. Batman: Year One starts not with the Wayne's dying but with Bruce coming back to Gotham and the story is a lot better for it.

    If this was WW2 Clark would have signed up very fast to go to fight Hitler.
    That's a totally different context to today. I'll wait for the next issue before giving a final judgement but I'm not optimistic

    I don't see anything of this ladies man that people keep complaining about either. No alpha maleness. Clark is with Lana and does not reap benefits of being ubercool stud that he is having ladies swooning and he is swaggering and he is macho. The guy did what any young kid might do...give into temptation one day to help win a game...and was told off by his dad. And let us not pretend this is the first time Clark played high school football knowing full well who he had powers.
    Almost every Miller main character is an alpha-male type and he's fairly open about his support of traditional gender roles in fiction. It couldn't be more obvious in the way he writes the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as Superman "taking" what is rightfully his in Wonder Woman (this is in Strikes Again I think). And this is the origin story of that version of Superman.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    I agree.
    I'd also say that I really can't get into the specific criticism against military forces in a superhero book mostly for one reason: almost every major DC superhero is somehow related to a military background (and EVERY Marvel hero is, especially in their most internationally beloved incarnation, that is the Avengers movies). Superman has waved the American flag more than every other superhero for God's sake. Sometimes it goes wrong (Superman 27-28 by Tomasi could be one of the most horrifyingly grandiloquent Superman stories I've ever read) and sometimes they get it right. Miller got it right IMHO. It's not about the American country, or even the army as a patriotic institution. It's mostly about the experience, the self-discovery or even the purely physical experience as far as I can see. I was not born in the US and I am a convinced pacifist, but I am not blind to the human experience Miller is trying to tell. I see his point. This is basically a James Cameron Superman.
    Is that where Clark takes his kid on a road trip? The judgmental tone he uses and the applauding of of messed up wars etc when in fact being a journalist he should know how unfortunate those interventions were and should have been a bit more wiser/conscientious in what he told Jon? Oh yeah. And people were pretty happy with that who attacking this now.

    The military, like the police and even the press ( who can manipulate the public) ,are responsible for many injustices and justice in this world. It does not make them as an institution bad. Nor the career. There was a time wanting to defend your country could be seen as the greatest honor for a man. Now we know it has too many shades of gray and politics etc have made such career seem not as noble? Which is kinda unfortunate because putting your life on the line for the right reasons to defend others is noble. It's the administration that makes it good or bad. So yeah...the whole idea of joining up, getting close to the oceans, knowing the world, helping...might seem even naive to us, but that is kinda the point too. What do you do in such a system, how do you operate in it, it is the things you see, the people who meet that shape you. Seems there is quite a bit to learn in this take. And meeting Lori this way sure as hell sounds better than the wheelchair thing. Plus Clark has read so many books and so forth...college would seem a bit redundant right now to him in a way...I fiured he 'd be bored as hell...lol. Lana kinda sowed the seed of a reporter too...so maybe it is this experience that drives him to the Daily Planet.
    Last edited by hellacre; 06-19-2019 at 10:22 AM.

  5. #20
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    Speaking for myself, I think Clark joining the military has potential since is something that we haven't seen before, at least not in the comics. If properly executed this could bring a brand new vision for Superman. Then again, the concern of Miller's beliefs is always there but hopefully he knows better than push them into the character.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    He shouldn't write what Waid did already but he shouldn't have written another Superman origin story period, especially one that begins in Smallville. Batman: Year One starts not with the Wayne's dying but with Bruce coming back to Gotham and the story is a lot better for it.



    That's a totally different context to today. I'll wait for the next issue before giving a final judgement but I'm not optimistic



    Almost every Miller main character is an alpha-male type and he's fairly open about his support of traditional gender roles in fiction. It couldn't be more obvious in the way he writes the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as Superman "taking" what is rightfully his in Wonder Woman (this is in Strikes Again I think). And this is the origin story of that version of Superman.
    Isn't Superman that though? Alpha male? Aren't ALL the male heroes and if they do the superhero women well...they are alphas too. What is wrong with that? it is in the superhero dna. Also I don't know what the smww meeting will be like this time given it is so many years he wrote that. In DK3 Superman...is not some hyper-masculine character. He is a troubled, burdened character with responsibility. He was a father as well who can't be the father he needs to be because he had to hide his children from the authorities etc. Batman is hypermasculine. Batman was in the top alpha in DKR and DKSA.
    Last edited by hellacre; 06-19-2019 at 09:54 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post

    Almost every Miller main character is an alpha-male type and he's fairly open about his support of traditional gender roles in fiction. It couldn't be more obvious in the way he writes the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as Superman "taking" what is rightfully his in Wonder Woman (this is in Strikes Again I think). And this is the origin story of that version of Superman.
    No offense meant, but this is a very simplistic view about this specific story and Miller in general.
    Yes, Miller has written some very provocative things (and also things which simply weren't good), but also some of the most important books in the entire history of superheroics. Let's not repeat for the umpteenth time that his best days are behind him - everybody knows that at this point and no superhero writer could keep the same level of quality after 30+ years in the field (personally speaking, I am really surprised at how good Superman Year One is all things considered - he probably had a good editor). He has written over-the-top, provocative, military-oriented stories and story about anarchist, revolutionary heroes against the entire system. He has written stories about fatal women and stories about incredibly strong women. Have his detractors only read All Star Batman or also Elektra Assassin, the Martha Washington saga, Hard Boiled, Big Guy and the Rusty robot?

    Miller is way more complex than a lot of people make him appear to be and - even in his worst stories - his voice is always unique, no matter how divisive it can be. After reading Superman Year One - the real book, I mean-, the overly exaggerated focus on RAPE!!! and IMPERIALISM!!! I've read in some reviews just seem a cautious attempt at jumping on the Politically Correct bandwagon.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

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  8. #23
    Mighty Member Deiasilva10's Avatar
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    My opinion:

    "The best book of the day!!!! I love Millerverse very much, it is hard, cruel but also bittersweet but this SM is a sweet surprise!

    Miller shows us a young Clark Kent conscious of his powers and a baby of superior intellect as we really expect of him. The importance of the Kents again is shown to us with a more firmly Pa Kent, who shows us all his outrage at injustices and how it is passed on to his son. The Kent always knew that Clark's fate was to defend this world, that his powers would serve this planet.

    Clark leaving to serve in the Navy was also a natural step, something that many young people who wish to defend their country do. Voluntary military experience is usually very positive for them. Anyone who says that Clark went to the Navy to shoot innocent people or to reinforce any aspect of "imperialism" is a complete idiot! Something that made me curious was that Clark said the ocean called him ... I loved all the meanings implicit in it.

    Clark is shown as an intelligent young man, aware of the human fragility that he deeply respects. His love for our planet and for our race is very clear, his notion that he is different and therefore his solitude too... is not something depressing and bordering on the self-pity that we are accustomed to see... he can feel solitary but does not let this feeling become depressive and, of course, he is not alone. He becomes the home leader of the school's "losers" group, a fact I really liked n, when necessary, took on the responsibility of defending them.

    The romance between him and Lana is very beautiful, to see how he trusts her, their innocent love, how smart, brave and inspiring she is! I hate the idea of ​​her "breaking the heart of the poor boy" for any foolish reason so that only Lois be the woman who understands him, I always thought Lana was the one who understood him the most. She loved him enough to leave him to fulfill his destiny. This Clark will not be a man-child emotionally dependent on a wife-mother because she will have been associated with great women from the beginning.

    One more detail... it's a delight for my eyes and a chill for my heart to see Jor-El again, a true Jor-El good character, loving and concerned about his son. In times where this character has been played in the mud, has had his morale devastated and unrecognizable, to see a classic Jor-El, even if by a few pictures, is charming. I suppose this is the difference between a genius like Miller from other just plain writers ... he knows where to make the right changes and what changes to make to actually create a different and interesting story."

    My opinion was published this morning on my twitter and I came here to share it with you, please forgive the little spoilers

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    No offense meant, but this is a very simplistic view about this specific story and Miller in general.
    Yes, Miller has written some very provocative things (and also things which simply weren't good), but also some of the most important books in the entire history of superheroics. Let's not repeat for the umpteenth time that his best days are behind him - everybody knows that at this point and no superhero writer could keep the same level of quality after 30+ years in the field (personally speaking, I am really surprised at how good Superman Year One is all things considered - he probably had a good editor). He has written over-the-top, provocative, military-oriented stories and story about anarchist, revolutionary heroes against the entire system. He has written stories about fatal women and stories about incredibly strong women. Have his detractors only read All Star Batman or also Elektra Assassin, the Martha Washington saga, Hard Boiled, Big Guy and the Rusty robot?

    Miller is way more complex than a lot of people make him appear to be and - even in his worst stories - his voice is always unique, no matter how divisive it can be. After reading Superman Year One - the real book, I mean-, the overly exaggerated focus on RAPE!!! and IMPERIALISM!!! I've read in some reviews just seem a cautious attempt at jumping on the Politically Correct bandwagon.
    I go back to the DKSA...and I see that as so satirical and bombastic. It is humorous to me and the guy is psychic in a way when it comes to politics of the day. Miller's stuff tends to be controversial sure but he speaks a lot of truth. He doesn't cushioned in PC or the way some of the SJW like but what he discusses often is on the nose. Also the tone shifted from DKSA to DK3...having Azzarello perhaps or maybe Miller, like any good writer , has also grown? DK3 one can argue has so much female power so this idea Miller uses all women badly to me is incorrect. And I say again so what if heroes are alphas. They should be. They are the stars of their stories. They own the stage.

    There is a surprising softness and hopefulness in Year One even if more realistic.

  10. #25
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    Despite my earlier defense of the previews I was actually expecting this to be quite poor, strangely Miller actually pulled it off for the most part. It was honestly a lot more Post-Crisis in nature really, lots of time on the farm. Kind of felt like a more fleshed out Superman for All Seasons. Miller might actually do the damn thing.
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  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deiasilva10 View Post
    Clark is shown as an intelligent young man, aware of the human fragility that he deeply respects. His love for our planet and for our race is very clear, his notion that he is different and therefore his solitude too... is not something depressing and bordering on the self-pity that we are accustomed to see... he can feel solitary but does not let this feeling become depressive and, of course, he is not alone. He becomes the home leader of the school's "losers" group, a fact I really liked n, when necessary, took on the responsibility of defending them.
    The amt of time spent with this aspect, the examination of bullying and how he manages it...this would be an excellent read to give a youngster today...if the book was not aimed at older readers.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Isn't Superman that though? Alpha male? Aren't ALL the male heroes and if they do the superhero women well...they are alphas too. What is wrong with that? it is in the superhero dna. Also I don't know what the smww meeting will be like this time given it is so many years he wrote that.
    Sure but Frank Miller dials this up to 1000. His whole style is to be as melodramatic as possible and he does this with gender roles in almost all his work.

    Batman is hypermasculine. Batman was in the top alpha in DKR and DKSA.
    Yeah obviously Batman has been the focus in his past DC works but this type of thinking is clearly there whenever he writes SMWW, their first scene together in ASBAR has the "strongman putting feminist in her place" vibe to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    No offense meant, but this is a very simplistic view about this specific story and Miller in general.
    Yes, Miller has written some very provocative things (and also things which simply weren't good), but also some of the most important books in the entire history of superheroics. Let's not repeat for the umpteenth time that his best days are behind him - everybody knows that at this point and no superhero writer could keep the same level of quality after 30+ years in the field (personally speaking, I am really surprised at how good Superman Year One is all things considered - he probably had a good editor). He has written over-the-top, provocative, military-oriented stories and story about anarchist, revolutionary heroes against the entire system. He has written stories about fatal women and stories about incredibly strong women. Have his detractors only read All Star Batman or also Elektra Assassin, the Martha Washington saga, Hard Boiled, Big Guy and the Rusty robot?

    Miller is way more complex than a lot of people make him appear to be and - even in his worst stories - his voice is always unique, no matter how divisive it can be. After reading Superman Year One - the real book, I mean-, the overly exaggerated focus on RAPE!!! and IMPERIALISM!!! I've read in some reviews just seem a cautious attempt at jumping on the Politically Correct bandwagon.
    I don't despise everything Miller has done and can appreciate DKSA and ASBAR for being deconstructions of comic books previous dark phase partially caused by him. I'm just saying his version of Superman is leaning into an alpha-male type and I don't want an ideal version of Superman to be part of the military (this is going to be his own version so fine but that's my opinion). The attempted gang-rape is just absolutely bizarre, weird and has no real excuse behind it.

  13. #28

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    Letting Miller write a Superman comic to a man who hates Clark is a huge DC mistake. Worst issue ever. Other issues will be even worse.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericFailures View Post
    I don't despise everything Miller has done and can appreciate DKSA and ASBAR for being deconstructions of comic books previous dark phase partially caused by him.
    Again, I am not talking about DKSA and ASBAR. Miller's career is way bigger and more important than prequels and sequels to DKR, and I'd say that ASBAR (which is probably one of his worst works, or at least an unsuccessful but ultimately harmless experiment) is simply not comparable to his other works. He wrote about minorities, anarchism against the system, crazy US president who are also terrorists, strong female characters, crazy politicians who foreshadow Trump. He's an extremely complex writer and stating that he's just into alpha-male, imperialistic types is - I repeat it - overly simplistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I go back to the DKSA...and I see that as so satirical and bombastic. .
    You made me think of an old, hilarious Dark Horse one-shot Miller wrote in the 90s, I can't remember the title but it should be something like "Offensive tales" (and I am pretty sure that Miller ALSO did the writing, even if I am not 100% sure).

    In it, there is an All-American, Buck Rogers-like hero who is Miller's attempt at satirizing an alpha male. He loves guns, he kills extremely rare dinosaurs to cook them, the makes a vegetarian woman fall in love with him after making her eat some meat and enslaves an entire race of adorable aliens by lobotomizing them and selling them as pets.

    It's incredibly funny and pretty revelatory of Miller's views about alpha males.

    EDIT The title is TALES TO OFFEND. I recommend it.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  15. #30
    Spectacular Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    So this is how it all started?





    Well, Frank Miller can do anything if he shows a certain relationship. Poor wonder woman fans.

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