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  1. #511
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    The quote is from DC Special Series #5 (1977), here's the full context:
    Wow thanks. That's actually one of my all time favorite single issues but I really couldn't remember that being included

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    There’s something very amusing about how other Batman writers will go to great lengths to show that yes Batman does donate to charity and Bruce Wayne isn’t just a rich guy beating up poor people only for Miller to basically go “nah he doesn’t care about them at all” lol.
    Yeah. Obviously it's a lot easier to like the character when he's a really good person, but that's... always just gonna be true to the character in a way that only Miller seems to confront haha.
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  2. #512
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    I think the series could have benefited from a third or fourth issue, it handled the time jumps alright for the most part but it could have been better. That said I did enjoy the series; Clark really exploring the limitations of his powers, seeing his mindset doesn't match up with the military, batman embarrassing himself in their first meeting(I say that as a big batman fan) and Miller handled wonder woman shockingly well considering ASBAR.
    Last edited by Bobtrap; 11-07-2019 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #513
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Seems consistent with his Occupy Wall Street comments from eight years ago (almost to the day), like he's injecting his thoughts at the time to Batman. Though apparently Miller claims he wasn't thinking clearly when he said that, I dunno.
    Cocaine's a helluva drug.

    Although, to be fair, I'm sure Frank Miller was wacked out of his mind on more drugs than just cocaine when he went completely off the rails

  4. #514
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtrap View Post
    I think the series could have benefited from a third or fourth issue, it handled the time jumps alright for the most part but it could have been better. That said I did enjoy the series; Clark really exploring the limitations of his powers, seeing his mindset doesn't match up with the military, batman embarrassing himself in their first meeting(I say that as a big batman fan) and Miller handled wonder woman shockingly well considering ASBAR.
    There are certainly time skips between issues. There seem to be time skips in the third issue probably because of constraints to get it done. The love relationship with Wonder Woman clearly was rushed. The whole love relationships thing comes off poorly not because of what's on-panel but because of what is not.

    We are left with the impression that Superman is cheating on the girl back home with the next woman that made him feel hot and bothered and she was conveniently there while Lana wasn't. There's probably an untold story about how the relationship with Lana weakened over time. But it's sort of the Man of Steel and Batman versus Superman problem where the problem is not entirely what's there but what's not there, the rest of the story.

    That said, I loved that Miller was willing to reverse what happened in DKR and have Superman essentially make a fool of Batman. But it was also nice to see him do something similar to the movies and have WW be the one that basically comes along and says, "Listen, you two testosterone driven imbeciles, you're going to knock it off and start working together for the good of humanity and you're going to start right now".

    It's unfortunate that today is not the time that it was when he wrote DKR and that this will never get the attention and acclaim DKR did. Deservedly because it's not even close to the innovation that DKR was along with the fact that DKR came along as something really new.

    But hopefully we'll drop the "Frank Miller hates Superman" routine. He's a writer. He sees Superman as a fictional character that can be taken to whatever extreme you want to tell whatever story you want.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  5. #515

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    "Almost, everyone, including me, would like to see superman marry lois,i don't think it will be good for the longevity of superman books". That doesn't sound like a no to me.
    Actually, that IS a "no". If there's "no longevity" then the chances of sustainability of a character's stories fall. For a monthly comic that's the core of survival. This is why IMO Superman has been stagnating as a character for the past few decades. Just because Siegel said he "would like" to see it (remember he also said it should only happen in "imaginary" stories) does NOT mean he said "Yes" or "maybe one day." As the old saying goes, No means no.

    Also freaking alan moore married of lois lane and clark kent. Not lyla. not lana not lori. lois lane. That is saying something. "This is an imaginary tale. Aren't they all?".
    Yes. That was if it were the final Superman story. Great story too BTW. And it's a final chapter story. Marriage does work very well as the final chapter of a story but not necessarily in terms of longevity. Superman comics is a good example of that.

    Jerry wanted imaginary tales where superman marries lois.
    Dude. I said that. The penny's dropped IMAGINARY tales, dude. NOT cannon. There's a difference.

    Jerry himself would have loved to see them married. His main concern is longevity.longevity isn't a factor anymore.
    YES it is. As I suggested, it's likely the main reason Superman has been stagnating for so long now. But hey, if you can find a Jerry Siegel quote, with the actual source material reference, etc as I did I, where he says "Yes. They should marry and it should be canon because longevity will never be an issue" then by all means, feel free to share that quote. I've provided some actual facts and documentation to back up my argument ... can you?

    I feel like, You are just biased against lois lane because you implied the "for the man who has everything" is great without lois lane. otherwise, why would you bring it up.
    Firstly, it's an ironic point that's worth considering which is why I brought it up. I mean, you're so pro FTMWHE and simultaneously so pro Lois, yet that particular story (one of the best ever) didn't even mention her. It's just a bit ironic, that's all I was saying. Secondly, I'm not biased against Lois, I'm biased against the marriage. There's a difference. To borrow your one of quotes: "Anyone with reading comprehension can understand it."

    Lois lane isn't a factor in greatness of a book. But, She is the main action heroine of "action comics". Second only to those who have headlined it like the guys i mentioned including superman. I would give equal status to guys like zatara to superman . They should have been featured in ac#1000, that's beside the point.
    Explain to me how it goes against the character's nature? Everyone, including jerry said clark 'could' marry lois. So there is a possibility.
    Well, it would be like Charlie Brown kicking the football, or Beavis and Butthead scoring, or Popeye eating a pork chop instead of spinach. That sort of thing lol A character is often defined by their situation, as well as other things, and Superman were always in a situation (from the get go) where they couldn't marry

    ... but I think this discussion has gotten wayyyy off-topic (I never meant for it to get this out-of-hand) and it's starting to derail the thread so I'll start a new thread devoted to this topic and we can analyse it further if you like

    (and I'll try to get this discussion back on track)

  6. #516

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtrap View Post
    I think the series could have benefited from a third or fourth issue, it handled the time jumps alright for the most part but it could have been better. That said I did enjoy the series; Clark really exploring the limitations of his powers, seeing his mindset doesn't match up with the military, batman embarrassing himself in their first meeting(I say that as a big batman fan) and Miller handled wonder woman shockingly well considering ASBAR.
    A fourth issue definitely would have been awesome and would've helped the pacing of the overall story tremendously.

  7. #517
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friendly-fire-press View Post
    Actually, that IS a "no". If there's "no longevity" then the chances of sustainability of a character's stories fall. For a monthly comic that's the core of survival. This is why IMO Superman has been stagnating as a character for the past few decades. Just because Siegel said he "would like" to see it (remember he also said it should only happen in "imaginary" stories) does NOT mean he said "Yes" or "maybe one day." As the old saying goes, No means no.



    Yes. That was if it were the final Superman story. Great story too BTW. And it's a final chapter story. Marriage does work very well as the final chapter of a story but not necessarily in terms of longevity. Superman comics is a good example of that.



    Dude. I said that. The penny's dropped IMAGINARY tales, dude. NOT cannon. There's a difference.



    YES it is. As I suggested, it's likely the main reason Superman has been stagnating for so long now. But hey, if you can find a Jerry Siegel quote, with the actual source material reference, etc as I did I, where he says "Yes. They should marry and it should be canon because longevity will never be an issue" then by all means, feel free to share that quote. I've provided some actual facts and documentation to back up my argument ... can you?



    Firstly, it's an ironic point that's worth considering which is why I brought it up. I mean, you're so pro FTMWHE and simultaneously so pro Lois, yet that particular story (one of the best ever) didn't even mention her. It's just a bit ironic, that's all I was saying. Secondly, I'm not biased against Lois, I'm biased against the marriage. There's a difference. To borrow your one of quotes: "Anyone with reading comprehension can understand it."



    Well, it would be like Charlie Brown kicking the football, or Beavis and Butthead scoring, or Popeye eating a pork chop instead of spinach. That sort of thing lol A character is often defined by their situation, as well as other things, and Superman were always in a situation (from the get go) where they couldn't marry

    ... but I think this discussion has gotten wayyyy off-topic (I never meant for it to get this out-of-hand) and it's starting to derail the thread so I'll start a new thread devoted to this topic and we can analyse it further if you like

    (and I'll try to get this discussion back on track)
    Dude, superman started stagnating before the marriage. In fact, since the crisis on infinite earths. Death of superman had an impact on it.. Constant direction changes hasn't helped either. That isn't a no, no matter how you cut it.Jerry would be happy to marry off lois and clark in main universe if the longevity isn't affected because of the lack of their old (keyword) gags and troupes. Superman can go back being single bachelor and he would still struggle regardless. Unless his old troupes are modernized in a way that attracts. Which they haven't been able to do. They have been trying. Why do yo think the origin story is retold again and again. Its the same reason.Now,they are trying the 5G thing.

    you thinking that isn't part of the equation. A character's nature is defined by what he would do based on what is established. Tom's nature is to chase jerry. He used to do that adnaueseam. Then it got old. They had to do new things. So, they tried new things like making them friendly rivals, introducing new characters to the equation .. Etc. Superman is in a similar position . But that aside, that's business standpoint. Coming to nature of a character, It would be perfectly in nature of tom to eat him, if he does or he would let him go to restart the chase. The tom can catch him. That is very much a possibility. It can be showed in main story as well. Both are in his nature because tom has shown love for the chase as well tried to eat the mouse. Popeye thing isn't right at all. If clark married (i don't know)Steve Lombard or something . Then the spinach becomes pork chop. Lois lane is very much Clark's spinach, lol. For steve, clark never had a shred of romantic relationship other than on the surface level rivalry, any version. Here, clark goes against the unruly nature of the character without much fleshing out.
    As you said, this is off topic. We can clearly go in round and round. You clearly have a no marriages policy for superheroes in comics. That's fine. But, don't tell me clark kent wouldn't marry lois lane, no matter what.it is very much natural.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-16-2019 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #518
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Finally finished reading the entire thing I figure I'll throw my few cents here as well:

    1. I'm not sure if Year One name really makes sense here since we got something like 25 years, I'd guess, here? And some captions with what happens when would have helped as well since it looks like Joker/Luthor pages happened before Superman/Luthor met and it would make sense if there was a week or so between WW appearing and showing emotions for Superman.

    2. I found first issue to be less interesting that other two. I liked the art and the story, but in general I usually find Clark's school years to be rather boring and Miller didn't really change my opinion on that period of time.

    3. I thought that second issue, especially second part of it, was magnificent. Overall this mini felt like an unpolished diamond to me, at one point you see some Miller's greatness and then you get some pages where you are not sure what exactly is happening or why it matters. And everything Atlantis related was simply amazing, it felt like I was reading a myth.

    4. Military thing I feel like could have gone better, but at the same time I liked the idea of it a lot. When heroes work outside the law (or "with the law" as said here later) they are never justified in their killings. People in military are justified. Thats how our society works, state sanctioned murder is ok, everything else is not ok. So, in this story Clark is put in a position where he would be justified for killing that pirate, he would probably even get a medal for it. Yet he does not. To me this is much stronger showing of his character than any other cases where Superman fights some villain and decides not to kill him.

    5. Another aspect of military service that I liked is that we sometimes get these talks about well, how does Superman know how to fight? With whom did he train? As a response we get the ideas that he actually doesn't know how to fight and it is entirely due to his physical attributes that he wins fights, while some skilled fighter could hang on despite being much weaker than he is. Another idea that I remember seeing is that he is just naturally good at fighting. I also vaguely remember there being some story where WW trains him how to fight? Anyway, I think Clark serving in military solves this small problem perfectly.

    6. Loved Luthor here. One of my problems with Luthor/Superman dynamics in other works is that Superman is often shown to basically be slow farm boy and thats how Luthor manages to get an upper hand. Here Superman during earlier issues is shown to be rather smart and witty character yet Luthor manages to get a jump on him in their first meeting and that public event. We know that Superman isn't stupid and we see him realizing that Luthor is trying to play him, but at the same time we see that Luthor is very good at this. It makes other character look good without making Superman look dumb.

    7. Love life. This got lots of criticism, but I think this is basically how Miller sees love, you see a person and you fall in love with him, love from the first sight and all that. And I don't think that this has anything to do with him hating women or anything of the sorts. Why? Because Clark does literally the same thing. First time he sees Lori he instantly falls in love with her. Same thing happens with Lois as well. And it looks like same happened with WW too, but it is a bit unclear there due to possible time jumps.

    8. Speaking about how it ended with Lori, my interpretation of the story was that he was charmed by Lori and when he saved Lois her charms were broken due to him falling in love with Lois.

    9. And I really liked the last page. The never-ending battle begins!

  9. #519
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Really on the same page with you on all that, though I tend to think "slow farm boy" is maybe an idea from the cartoon and not really something Miller has to defy.

    It's funny that Batman Year One is what it is because of the actual year structure. But we get all sorts of different origins with the name just because it's so hard to resist. A little bit of time stamping would have solved some storytelling issues, though Smallville would still be boring and some of the dialogue still odd.
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  10. #520
    Amazing Member Crabble's Avatar
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    I still think the lines Lori and Diana say once they're infatuated with Clark|Superman are pretty cringe worthy. I'm unable to take those two seriously at all.

  11. #521
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    Default Anyone else not impressed with Superman: Year One?

    I read the hardback graphic novel yesterday. Since this is from the guy who gave us Batman Year One and The Dark Knight Returns - I was extremely excited to see his take on Superman. Turns out it is one of the most disappointing comics I've ever read. I was expecting it to be pretty far out and wacky. But there was literally nothing in it that made it stand out. Personally I was pretty underwhelmed with this one.
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  12. #522
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Seems most people weren’t that impressed but it did have some fans. I personally preferred Wolfman’s mini over it. Kinda wish we got to see Miller’s original 1980s Man of Steel reboot pitch after DC decided to reboot their characters.

  13. #523
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCStu View Post
    I read the hardback graphic novel yesterday. Since this is from the guy who gave us Batman Year One and The Dark Knight Returns - I was extremely excited to see his take on Superman. Turns out it is one of the most disappointing comics I've ever read. I was expecting it to be pretty far out and wacky. But there was literally nothing in it that made it stand out. Personally I was pretty underwhelmed with this one.
    I'm not a big Miller guy, never was outside of the first DK which I hated for its portrayal of Superman. And that never was a large library of material to form a fully informed opinion on. But from everything I had heard second hand, today's Miller has lost a lot of his original spark. That said, I did generally enjoy YO, even if it wasn't anything top ten of the decade for me or anything like that. And being completely out of the main verse stuff, that means something to me still. Enjoyable, if not exactly memorable.
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  14. #524
    All about DC. DCStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I personally preferred Wolfman’s mini over it.
    Remind me...


    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm not a big Miller guy, never was outside of the first DK which I hated for its portrayal of Superman. And that never was a large library of material to form a fully informed opinion on. But from everything I had heard second hand, today's Miller has lost a lot of his original spark. That said, I did generally enjoy YO, even if it wasn't anything top ten of the decade for me or anything like that. And being completely out of the main verse stuff, that means something to me still. Enjoyable, if not exactly memorable.
    Well, maybe I'm doing it a bit of a disservice... I guess I did keep reading till the end. But it was just completely unremarkable. ANYBODY could have written it. It would take something pretty special to beat "Secret Origin" (which I adore with all my heart)
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  15. #525
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCStu View Post
    Remind me...




    Well, maybe I'm doing it a bit of a disservice... I guess I did keep reading till the end. But it was just completely unremarkable. ANYBODY could have written it. It would take something pretty special to beat "Secret Origin" (which I adore with all my heart)
    Wolfman made an origin back in the 90s that only recently got released “Man and Superman”.

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