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  1. #31
    Incredible Member Strong Girl Daken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    That’s a joke , right?
    What about it sounds like a joke.

  2. #32
    Unapologetic Feminist Shadowcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    So to celebrate the Raptors win, they reintroduce the classic team that doesn't have a single impactful African Canadian in its starting 5? Got it. Drake and the Claw would be disappointed.
    You realize if they get a new ongoing, and Zub is holding the reigns, there will more than likely be getting lots of diversity in this book?

    I personally hope to see Talisman, Murmur, Winshear, and other diverse Alphans in their lineup.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member psylurker's Avatar
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    I'm always there for more Alpha Flight, and both Zub and Brisson are very solid writers and some of the best from Marvel's most recent crop.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    You realize if they get a new ongoing, and Zub is holding the reigns, there will more than likely be getting lots of diversity in this book?

    I personally hope to see Talisman, Murmur, Winshear, and other diverse Alphans in their lineup.
    Ooh, I'd love to see Windshear back!

    Pathway/Laura Dean (and Goblyn) as well, for that matter, although in my head, she's spent the last few years in 'Live World,' living on her own jungle island paradise, surrounded by an entire race of Goblyns that have sprung up to keep her sister company, and looks like a less fish-netty version of Machiko Noguchi, the colony leader who, in the Dark Horse comics, became an 'honorary' Predator. She warps into fights with a spear and armor cobbled together out of monster parts and cast-offs she's repurposed from her extra-dimensional travels, with a *horde* of Goblyns. That'll show 'em!

    Manikin can stay gone, 'though. His power was neat, but weird...

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    You realize if they get a new ongoing, and Zub is holding the reigns, there will more than likely be getting lots of diversity in this book?

    I personally hope to see Talisman, Murmur, Winshear, and other diverse Alphans in their lineup.
    It also depends on what kind of diversity we're talking about. Even if we just break down the Byrne-era roster we get:

    - a membership that ranged from about 40-50% female
    - a gay hero
    - a non-neurotypical hero
    - two First Nations heroes
    - two heroes with physical disabilities (and who were not defined or embittered by them until Mantlo came along; Puck was the personification of the larger-than-life, manly explorer and Bochs was a sweetheart genius mecha-pilot!)

    So not a bad start right there, especially once Mac shuffled off.
    Last edited by Anduinel; 06-22-2019 at 06:20 AM.

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  6. #36
    Cadaver Sniffing Dog Personamanx's Avatar
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    With at least two of the writers located in Atlantic Canada I hope that if Marrina has much of a focus in their stories they highlight the regional differences between Newfoundland, and the Maritime provinces. Sure Cape Breton is more Newfie than most of Newfoundland, but in general Nova Scotia/Prince Edward Island/New Brunswick/Newfoundland are all fairly distinct from one another. If the goal is to have different members of Alpha Flight be representations of provinces Marrina shouldn't be the catch all for everything East of Quebec.
    Continuity, even in a "shared" comics universe is often insignificant if not largely detrimental to the quality of a comic.

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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    You realize if they get a new ongoing, and Zub is holding the reigns, there will more than likely be getting lots of diversity in this book?

    I personally hope to see Talisman, Murmur, Winshear, and other diverse Alphans in their lineup.
    What I realize is that there's really no excuse not to have that reflected now. I realize that Marvel has a diverse audience, a new throng of readers who neither know nor care about the classic team as constructed. Many of whom will not buy the first issue on the basis of the cover presentation alone. And I realize that "down the road" is a marketing tactic that worked well for my generation and the generations before me. Yet here we are decades later and the point that I'm making now is still relevant. I like Alpha Flight. It wouldn't hurt to see them change the lineup a bit and put that out front, not behind the scenes or down the road.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    It also depends on what kind of diversity we're talking about. Even if we just break down the Byrne-era roster we get:

    - a membership that ranged from about 40-50% female
    - a gay hero
    - a non-neurotypical hero
    - two First Nations heroes
    - two heroes with physical disabilities (and who were not defined or embittered by them until Mantlo came along; Puck was the personification of the larger-than-life, manly explorer and Bochs was a sweetheart genius mecha-pilot!)

    So not a bad start right there, especially once Mac shuffled off.
    Is Puck still considered a normal sized man who was reduced in size due to a curse of some sort. And while NorthStar is gay now, under Byrne I don't believe that he was written as gay at all. Quite the opposite. I didn't see Roger Bochs, but yes, if he shows up he'd be a welcome member to any team that I'd create. Only, I wouldn't give him the ability to merge with his constructs. I like the drone approach where he's remotely controlling whatever it is that he decides to create. Thinking of Box makes me want to go watch The Iron Giant for some reason. Love that movie.

  9. #39
    Unapologetic Feminist Shadowcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Is Puck still considered a normal sized man who was reduced in size due to a curse of some sort. And while NorthStar is gay now, under Byrne I don't believe that he was written as gay at all. Quite the opposite. I didn't see Roger Bochs, but yes, if he shows up he'd be a welcome member to any team that I'd create. Only, I wouldn't give him the ability to merge with his constructs. I like the drone approach where he's remotely controlling whatever it is that he decides to create. Thinking of Box makes me want to go watch The Iron Giant for some reason. Love that movie.
    Northstar was always gay, he just wasn’t explicitly stated that way, due to editorial edicts. Most of Claremont’s women have lesbian, or bi tendencies, but were never really allowed to state such because of this policy. For proof of Northstar’s sexuality, read Alpha Flight 6 and 7, and read the subtle nuances Byrne put into Jean Paul’s relationship with Raymonde Belmonde. You’ll be able to see the subtext in how Byrne displayed his sexuality.

    As far as your other point, diversity will be in the group, unfortunately this storyline won’t be set in the period when those characters you’d prefer to see were part of the cast. That’s not to say they’ll never show up, especially if we’re given a new ongoing. Zub tends to put diversity in much of his casts.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Is Puck still considered a normal sized man who was reduced in size due to a curse of some sort.
    I *think* that 'shrunk via curse' thing was added later, and Byrne had intended him to have been that way from birth. I'm not a fan of the curse thing, but it is what it is...

    And while NorthStar is gay now, under Byrne I don't believe that he was written as gay at all. Quite the opposite.
    That's just crazy talk. As early as issue 4, IIRC (the one with the flashback in the back pages where Mac is recruiting Jean-Paul to the team), Mac straight up says that most people become sports stars for the girls, but 'you never cared about that.' It was obvious in-world to people around him, and seemed obvious to me at the time, as a teen with the world's worst gaydar.

    Quite the opposite? I don't remember any instance of him behaving 'the opposite' (flirting with girls, etc., although, granted, it's been decades, and back in the day, I was more into Snowbird), so I'm curious as to where you got this idea from Byrne's run.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I *think* that 'shrunk via curse' thing was added later, and Byrne had intended him to have been that way from birth. I'm not a fan of the curse thing, but it is what it is...



    That's just crazy talk. As early as issue 4, IIRC (the one with the flashback in the back pages where Mac is recruiting Jean-Paul to the team), Mac straight up says that most people become sports stars for the girls, but 'you never cared about that.' It was obvious in-world to people around him, and seemed obvious to me at the time, as a teen with the world's worst gaydar.

    Quite the opposite? I don't remember any instance of him behaving 'the opposite' (flirting with girls, etc., although, granted, it's been decades, and back in the day, I was more into Snowbird), so I'm curious as to where you got this idea from Byrne's run.
    Yeah. Byrne straight-up says he intended Northstar to be gay from the jump in the AF team book. He included quite a bit of subtext in the book itself, it shows up with other writers who were handling Northstar at the time (Claremont and Simonson, at least, possibly Jo Duffy) and Mantlo was even less subtle about it than Byrne was. And even if Byrne and Mantlo couldn't explicitly put it in the comic, it's on-record in print interviews from as far back as the 80's. (The scene you're referring to is from issue #10, btw.)

    ETA: And yep, making Puck's condition a literal curse and turning him into a self-pitying sad sack was also Mantlo. From all accounts, Mantlo was progessive leaning (per Busiek, he was once rotated off Iron Man for making Tony too liberal), but you wouldn't know it from his AF run. Even aside from Puck, he tried to kill off Northstar, did kill off Snowbird, made Aurora a caricature of herself (and then wrote her and Northstar out of the book) stripped Shaman of his humanity, turned Bochs into a crazed obsessive before killing him off, and took away Heather's confidence unless she was in Mac's old suit. Walter/Wanda was... interesting, at least.
    Last edited by Anduinel; 06-24-2019 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Poor phrasing.

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  12. #42
    Unapologetic Feminist Shadowcat's Avatar
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    From second hand sources from conversions I’ve had with other creators, Mantlo had all intentions to give Northstar AIDS/HIV, because it was just starting to creep into public knowledge, and was going to our him at the same time. This was struck down by Shooter, who had a no gay edict at the time.

  13. #43
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    Whatever happened to Heather Hudson? She was last seen escaping with her child Claire back in the 2011 series and haven't seen her since. To me this seems odd since Marvel is about diversity but sidelines a great female leader in Heather.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    From second hand sources from conversions I’ve had with other creators, Mantlo had all intentions to give Northstar AIDS/HIV, because it was just starting to creep into public knowledge, and was going to our him at the same time. This was struck down by Shooter, who had a no gay edict at the time.
    From the interviews I've read, Mantlo was going to have Northstar's "mysterious wasting disease" be HIV (progressed to AIDS by Pestilence), then out him as he died of the disease. Mantlo claimed at different points that he'd planned to do it because he wanted a "sensitive" take on the topic... but also because he was frustrated writing a closeted gay character and didn't feel there was anything else he could do with Northstar. (Yeeeeah, I could write a whole essay on THAT particular line of reasoning.) It's also pretty suspicious when paired with Mantlo saying early on he meant to get rid of Northstar when he was told he needed to whittle down the team roster.

    Shooter's said there was never any "no gay characters in the Marvel Universe" edict (at least not beyond the general guidelines of the ACC); Byrne and Mantlo both dispute this. Additionally, Shooter and Carl Potts (AF's editor at the time) claim Mantlo never ran the story by them in the first instance, that they learned about it from third parties Mantlo had spoken with while they were on the floor of a comic book convention, and they would have nixed his killing Northstar in any event, since they thought he was a vital part of the team and an interesting character. But all that praise editorial had for Northstar didn't keep him from being written out of the book for two years, so...

    So basically? A lot of finger-pointing and bad takes all around, and Mantlo's not in any shape to offer further clarification on it these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus1980 View Post
    Whatever happened to Heather Hudson? She was last seen escaping with her child Claire back in the 2011 series and haven't seen her since. To me this seems odd since Marvel is about diversity but sidelines a great female leader in Heather.
    That whole business got handwaved in Amazing X-Men: World War Wendigo as Heather and Mac having "a rough year". Heather's back to normal; baby Claire hasn't been seen since the 2011 series.

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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    From second hand sources from conversions I’ve had with other creators, Mantlo had all intentions to give Northstar AIDS/HIV, because it was just starting to creep into public knowledge, and was going to our him at the same time. This was struck down by Shooter, who had a no gay edict at the time.
    Ugh. I vaguely remember him having evidence of being sick, like coughing and stuff, and wondering if, "Of course, the gay dude is gonna get AIDS..."

    (Cause, Chekov's Gun and all, you don't waste time writing about a character being sick unless it's going to be a plot point. Superheroes don't just 'get' colds!)

    Thank goodness that never happened.

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