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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    I agree about Barry. It seem less about adding tragedy as motivation and more about paying a price for coming out of comic book limbo. Murdered mom enough tragedy? No. Falsely convict and imprison father for it enough? No, we need more. Let's see...eventually find out the copy who raises him in their place was having an affair with Barry's mom? OK. That'll do...for now. It's like the death by chocolate of comic book origins. Sheer overkill.

    Clark & football? Depending on how strong his abilities were at the time, it could be horrible or ok. If he just seemed like the fastest but not yet in a super way, OK. If they knew he was well beyond merely gifted? Not OK.

    Year One: I still love it. The Selina-as-a-hooker part is unpleasant, but the motivation it gives her is better than bored socialite or the like.

    Power Girl? They should have sent her into Ragnarok-Limbo with the JSA instead of the unfortunate multiple choice origins. The best thing in years was putting her original origin back in place where it belonged.

    I didn't much care for wiping Helena Wayne out of continuity, or getting rid of the multiverse either. Probably not really retcons, but still. Never liked it, and I bought Crisis when it was brand spanking new as a lad. Sat in the car reading the death of Kara while my mom was getting groceries. There may have been tears.
    I remember reading something way back in the nineties that said that the original plan for COIE was that they would do it and then never mention it again. Which is problematic when you're dealing with characters who are tied to one of the previous Earths. In terms of Clark and football, I think even in the most generous interpretations he knew about most of his powers by his senior year of high school.
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  2. #32
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    Black Canary is Black Canary's daughter. check
    Roy being a child and kicked out of house and made homeless for drug addiction. check
    Diana is Zeus' child. check
    Batman's misery back-projected. check
    Barbara being Gordon's niece. check
    Barbara as a protege of Bruce's. Didn't know about this one.
    Dick cheating on Kori with Barbara. Didn't know about this one.
    Identity Crisis. check

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    FWIW, Ollie was only in his late twenties during the Bronze Age.
    I'm not sure. Most of the heroes were said to be 29, but I got the feeling that Oliver had been around for awhile longer. Anyway, during the 1970s, Dinah was always the original Black Canary and hadn't been retconned into her own daughter. But remember 1) she was from Earth-Two (with its fuzzy timeline) and 2) she was very young when she joined the JSA in 1947. And at the time, DC wasn't so definite about nailing down their chronology. So it was acceptable that Oliver and Dinah were in the same ballpark.

    Then there was the whole retcon with the Thunder Dimension, but that lasted less than two years before Crisis erased that retcon from existence. So after that, Oliver was made to seem much older--I remember there was a Mike Grell story that set his age, but I forget what that was, perhaps 40? So Oliver was an older guy and then there was the JLA: YEAR ONE (1998) series and from all we knew about Oliver's timeline and the Zero Hour timeline, he had to already be significantly older than Dinah in those stories, where he's coming on to her and she's only in her late teens. That rubbed me the wrong way.

  4. #34
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    -Ice no longer a nordic God but just a regular metahuman. Way to make someone less interesting.

    -Too much to list from the New 52

  5. #35
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    The Amazons not having their advanced technology

  6. #36
    Boisterously Confused
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    The entire wreckage that converting the excellent Hawkworld mini into an ongoing inflicted on Hawkman and Hawkwoman.

    Perez entire reinterpretation of Wonder Woman and the Amazons. He wrote some great stories, and he's one of my top 5 artists, but he ripped the heart and power out of an icon.

  7. #37
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    The retcon of Barry's parents - I HATE it with a white hot passion. HATE IT
    Selina Kyle was a hooker. What IS it with Frank Miller?
    John Stewart - Marine sniper What was wrong with John just being an architect?? To reflect a long cancelled cartoon...
    Wally West - Basically EVERYTHING DC has done to this poor bastard and his family since Flash Rebirth
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I'm not sure. Most of the heroes were said to be 29, but I got the feeling that Oliver had been around for awhile longer. Anyway, during the 1970s, Dinah was always the original Black Canary and hadn't been retconned into her own daughter. But remember 1) she was from Earth-Two (with its fuzzy timeline) and 2) she was very young when she joined the JSA in 1947. And at the time, DC wasn't so definite about nailing down their chronology. So it was acceptable that Oliver and Dinah were in the same ballpark.

    Then there was the whole retcon with the Thunder Dimension, but that lasted less than two years before Crisis erased that retcon from existence. So after that, Oliver was made to seem much older--I remember there was a Mike Grell story that set his age, but I forget what that was, perhaps 40? So Oliver was an older guy and then there was the JLA: YEAR ONE (1998) series and from all we knew about Oliver's timeline and the Zero Hour timeline, he had to already be significantly older than Dinah in those stories, where he's coming on to her and she's only in her late teens. That rubbed me the wrong way.
    Yup - It was his fortieth birthday and Dinah was busting his chops about it.
    And yes, it definitely made the Ollie/Dinah relationship more than a little creepy.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  9. #39
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Seconded on so many of these, like Ice being a metahuman, Barbara as niece instead of daughter. Here's a GL retcon I dislike intensely:

    The "just waiting to be retconned or ignored like it never came up" revelation of the Lights Out story with Relic. The emotional spectrum was revealed to be finite, and the usage of it by the various corp would eventually deplete it entirely. That kind of story leaves a few possibilities. Change how you tell stories moving forward (not likely), retcon it sooner rather than later (likely), or ignore it (most likely). All to push a thinly veiled Aesop on natural resource conservation in a way that could have been told without potentially damaging the way the corp works and the narrative itself. Reminds me of the Star Trek episode about warp drive damaging the fabric of space time. They imposed a Warp 5 limit for a while without clearance from Starfleet to exceed it, then quietly dropped the whole thing. It never should have made it on the air!

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not so much the Bronze age that's the problem, though it still erases the widow-hood story, which I liked (with Larry really being a good man and really being dead). And yes "half his age" may be an exaggeration (can't recall exact ages post-crisis), but it still annoyed me. What specific issue retconned her to daughter, anyway? I know I've seen it, but don't remember.

    Also, I could toss in Selina-is-23-and-Dick-is-21-and-Bruce-is-31. Except it didn't really last, since they reinstated some history. Bruce and Selina need to be peers to me. Maybe four years difference (either way), max. This, for me, is I like the GA setup where they met around the time Dick became Robin, and Dick became Robin no more than thee years after Bruce became Batman (I prefer one year, because of real-world timing) and Bruce became Batman at 25 (15 years after his parents died when he was 10). And I'd prefer Selina being at least 24 (definitely at least 22) when she meets him so she can't be in anyway qualified as a kid (though that's using more modern perceptions of early 20s, I admit). Of course, I have also considered the age was lie in the first place. But I guess we don't really have an idea on her original age? But definitely not a peer of Dick's.
    I didn't catch Selina's age during New 52, but I caught Wonder Woman. She's 23 too, and Clark's 25, with Dick being 21 it's just so wrong. Especially since both Diana and Clark do act that age.

    Dick is already really mature in the way he acts side by side with Bruce that even when Bruce is 31, he sounds like a peer, and Bruce does treat him like a peer, barring one or two moments when he went to dad mode.

    I got the feeling, while I was reading New 52, that this is why Dick is made to stay as far away from Clark and Diana as possible, and now I found out about it, Selina. He acts and sounds like their peer.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Back to Selina, she does sound and act really young in her first arcs, before she became a mob boss. That's when she actually sounds like a mature adult.
    I can believe it, though I haven't read it. I really don't like making characters younger, especially making them less mature. It feels like going backwards. All that growth, lost. Which, of course, is often the point of a reboot. Still, I think I'd be happier with a second-Earth-line or Year One TPBs or some such than reverting people in main line.

    I am still very perturbed over de-aging of Dick and Barbara. Kinda pathetic, but there you have it.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-21-2019 at 08:33 AM.

  12. #42
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    According to the pre flashpoint chronology Selina was iirc 19 in Year One (with Bruce being 25 or 26) which also already odd. Especially since Selina comes of as much older during that story line.

    Another one I also don't like:

    Increasing the starting ages for Dick and Jason to ~16 with the new 52. That changes imo completely their dynamic with Batman, and it makes imo Jasons death far less impact full when he was almost an adult opposed to barely in his teens when he is killed (in the original comics Jason never reached the age of 16 as Robin). They apparently changed it back for Dick, but it is sofar not clear if they did it also for Jason.
    I could get behind the higher starting if they would say we are going for a more grounded approach, and want therefore the Robins (and all the other sidekicks) to start older. But not if they have a 10 year old as the current Robin.

  13. #43
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    As mentioned elsewhere, I'm just getting back into comics after a 15+ year absence. This thread is making me glad I left. And re-enforcing my idea that I'll probably be happier just pretending that DC went out of business around 2005. I'll just read my old comics, buy back issues from the '80s and '90s to fill in the gaps, while completely ignoring all the new stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    I didn't much care for wiping Helena Wayne out of continuity, or getting rid of the multiverse either. Probably not really retcons, but still. Never liked it, and I bought Crisis when it was brand spanking new as a lad. Sat in the car reading the death of Kara while my mom was getting groceries. There may have been tears.
    This brings me to my #1 retcon I didn't like: Crisis on Infinite Earths. The whole damn thing. It was an excellent story, but WHY??? Whose idea was it to wipe out the multiverse, kill off 90% of the characters DC owned at the time, and completely mess up the origin stories and timelines of pretty much every character that survived?
    Last edited by Fromper; 06-21-2019 at 10:22 AM.

  14. #44
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Diana being Zeus' child is the big one for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fromper View Post
    This brings me to my #1 retcon I didn't like: Crisis on Infinite Earths. The whole damn thing. It was an excellent story, but WHY??? Whose idea was it to wipe out the multiverse, kill off 90% of the characters DC owned at the time, and completely mess up the origin stories and timelines of pretty much every character that survived?
    I mean, Marv Wolfman's, right? Save for the "mess up" part.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Diana being Zeus' child is the big one for me.



    I mean, Marv Wolfman's, right?
    You are correct. According to Wolfman, he got the idea several years earlier and thought it would be a great way to tie up some lingering problems and bring new readers to DC. TPTB liked the idea but wanted to save it for a few years during DC's 50th anniversary. I'm not sure whose idea it was to kill off what characters, but the idea for the event was all Wolfman's.

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