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  1. #121
    Fantastic Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all? And now there's a lot of other Forces, too.

    The inconsistency of it and what it does, etc. just drives me crazy (big issue there with Irey and Jai fighting over it). Also don't think speedsters need any other abilities that got introduced later (speed thievery, Bart's scouts, Barry's electrokinesis, etc.).

    I honestly prefer the simple meta gene.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-03-2019 at 05:26 PM.

  2. #122
    Amazing Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all?
    I actually remember the Usenet discussions when it was first introduced in the Terminal Velocity storyline (Flash, vol 2 #95-100) in 1994-5. Everyone was in one of two camps:

    1. What the heck is this garbage?
    2. Eh. It's comic book "science". I've seen worse.

    Nobody ever actually liked the Speed Force. Honestly, I'm really surprised it lasted this long, given what a silly concept it is. I'd actually call it the worst thing to come out of Mark Waid's otherwise fantastic Flash run.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all? And now there's a lot of other Forces, too.

    The inconsistency of it and what it does, etc. just drives me crazy (big issue there with Irey and Jai fighting over it). Also don't think speedsters need any other abilities that got introduced later (speed thievery, Bart's scouts, Barry's electrokinesis, etc.).

    I honestly prefer the simple meta gene.
    Not a fan of it either. I hate the electricity foolishness they tried to take on it.

  4. #124
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    Barry returning.
    Everything they did to Tim in New 52
    Wallace West
    Jason Todd being at the circus when Dick's parents died
    Diana not being born of clay
    New 52 Wonder Girl
    New 52 Superboy
    New 52 Kid Flash
    Supermans parents being dead
    Alan Scott and Ray Terrell being gay
    Batman not knowing his parents killer
    Cyborg being a JL founder and not a Teen Titan
    Agreed. I'm meh on Ray being gay but I wish they didn't write out his girlfriend, Jen. She was important to helping him adjust to his new life.

    Also agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeburn View Post
    Gordon being young enough to replace Batman for a time.

    Bringing back "A" Terra after the Judas Contract. Other dimensional or otherwise, just stop. It's too good of a story to mess with.

    Wonder Woman being the daughter of Zeus and all the ugly designs of Azz's Olympian Gods, especially Hades, Ares and Apollo.
    I loved Azz's Hera though.

    WW's God mode power.

    Cyborg being an original member of the JLA. I also dislike his power change. He's basically a taxi service for the JLA now.
    Hard agree. I do not like the mother box retcon. It was nice to consider a power boost but it made him a plot device. They should've just went with promethium.

    Cyborg still having daddy issues after decades. Let him grow him up already. Quit retelling the same tired origin stories.

    Barry Allen returning from the dead. DC finally gets it right with a legacy character but decides to bring back Barry anyway. Wally grew up and fought with Barry. Wally deserves to be the Flash after Barry's demise unlike so many other characters that take over a mantle without ever knowing the oringial (Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Green Arrow, Kyle Rayner, basically every 90's and up replacement). Under Wally the Speed Force was created. Wally had his own villains to fight on top of Barry's old ones. He was his own man.

    Revisiting Donna Troy's origin over and over again. WW rescued her as a baby, she grew up on Paradise Island, the Purple Ray gave her the same abilities as WW, let's move on.

    Changeling changing his name back to Beast Boy. He can't be a kid forever. Name him Menagerie if you have to.

    Raven being in high school. Back in the 80's she was taking college classes. 80 retcons later, she's a goth chick in high school. Let the Titans grow up. You have Young Justice to deal with pimples and dating problems.
    Goth Raven was the worst thing to happen to the character.

    Martian Manhunter not being a founder of the Justice League. He is the heart and soul of the team.

    NU52 Black Canary using her canary cry to fly. Her name isn't Siryn.

    Black Canary being an amazing singer in a band, because her powers are sonic based (shudder).
    This was just stupid and is so damn juvenile.

    Chief being a bad guy. Maxwell Lord being a bad guy. Jericho being a bad guy. Killer Frost being a good guy. Basically anyone designed to be good going bad and vice versa.
    DC turning Killer Frost good was just a way to write out Ice, DC not slick. Along with this, DC needs to stop turning female villains good.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all? And now there's a lot of other Forces, too.
    I don't like it and I don't feel bad about it. Pseudo-science in comics is fine, but this doesn't feel like science to me. It's metaphysics dressed up as science. Good comic book science has a logical pattern even if it's a bunch of hooey.

    If John Broome explained that just like a straw in a hurricane can pierce a tree, so the Flash can speed through a wall--that made sense, even if it wasn't actually right. But the Speed Force doesn't take a commonplace phenomenon and use that as a metaphor to present the Speed Force. Waid's idea is really like a black box--where he shows you a box and tells you there's something in that box but never explains what's in the box.

    If they had just said that the Speed Force was magic, that would've been a more honest explanation of what it is. Because that's how it's used. But because the Flash is supposed to be a science fiction hero not a supernatural hero, they tried to make the Speed Force seem like it's science--when it isn't.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fromper View Post
    Wasn't that part of Tim's original origin story, during A Lonely Place of Dying? Does that still count as a retcon? Sure, it adds a detail to Dick's origin story, but it doesn't actually change any pre-existing details.
    It is tough for me keeping up with Post-Crisis continuity.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Probably not (though the death scene plays out differently (clothes, etc.) in various versions). If Tim is roughly Jason's age, then he's 7 years younger than Dick. If Dick was 13 when his parents died, then Tim would be 6. If he's 2 years younger than Jason, then 4ish? But 13 was used in Post-Crisis (when Dick confronted Bruce about hiring Jason). And Jason was in 7th grade shorty before dying, so being close to 13 made sense. Later age changes muddied that up (Dick was 8, etc.). But Dick didn't seem 13 in that story, despite previous comments, and his age as orphaning has bounced about, though I don't know when that started. The biggest problem for me was putting Batman (rather than Bruce Wayne) at the circus. I mean, publicly, in front of entire audience. But I'm not at all sure this was the first version of the story to go that route (I just know the original didn't).
    If you just go by "Batman:Year 3" and "A Lonely Place of Dying" Tim would have iirc been 3 when Dick parents died. Since the main story of "Batman:Year 3" was set 10 year after the death of Dick Parents and Tim was 13 in "A Lonely Place of Dying".

    That would imo made Dick 11 when his parents died. But the comics have been really inconsistent when it comes to how old Dick was, I think just in books from the post crisis/pre flashpoint continuity you can find everything from 6 to 16.

  8. #128
    Fantastic Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    But the comics have been really inconsistent when it comes to how old Dick was, I think just in books from the post crisis/pre flashpoint continuity you can find everything from 6 to 16.
    Ain't that the truth. I think a lot of fans like a baby!Dick who cuddles with Bruce after nightmares (it's shown up in canon) and younger is better. I like Bruce as a good dad, as I feel he was in the golden age (barring the masked crimefighting, which I ignore based on premise of the comic). I definitely like Bruce as a father (not brother) figure to him, and I think that's in keeping with the early depiction. But I don't think Dick acted like an 8 year old then (nor did Roy) - especially with his undercover work, which was more suited to an older child, IMO. And it's important to me, too, that the Graysons are his parents, too, and that he be old enough to remember them well. I like something a little older. It's 10-13 for me. I find that more consistent with his GA depiction, too. But, like you said, canon is all over the place.

    For a more minor annoying retcon I was just reminded of - Francine Langstrom. She got vilified. Also, while I like Gotham Academy quite a bit, I still can't figure out how the Lansgtrom virus plays in. Actually, even before that, there was retconning going on with the kids' ages I didn't like.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    The retcon than Batman precedes Superman is something I really dislike.
    Agreed. I think it worked for certain universes like DCEU. Nope for all others. I hate Superman being inspired by Batman too. It made Clark look like a incompetent Robin.

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