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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Default What retcons do you least like?

    Can be ordinary retcon or universe reboot. I'm particularly talking about ones that stuck around a while, rather than those that were quickly reversed.

    Black Canary is Black Canary's daughter. And half Ollie's age. Ooh, I hated this one with a fiery passion. I really did enjoy her storyline about her widowhood and dealing with that loss in the bronze age. And I liked bronze age Ollie and Dinah (except for one writer, mostly). They already made it kinda icky with the age gap and him crushing on her mom (IIRC), and then it just went down the tubes as (IMO), Ollie's character was ruined.

    Roy being a child and kicked out of house and made homeless for drug addiction. Which again ties in to the continuing jerkification of Olllie.

    Diana is Zeus' child. This is one not major to me, just a minor, niggling annoyance. For a character whose start was about women, a female society, female accomplishment, etc. it is extremely frustrating to have her power (a defining characteristic) come from the male parent. Likewise, it frustrates me when the society is rewritten as "bad." I don't want Hercules (half-brother because of Zeus) as a good guy, friendly with Diana. That really doesn't work for me at all, given the golden age setup.

    Krypton is a pretty unpleasant place. Making the society less admirable would not so much have been an issue, except somewhere along the way, they did this with pretty much every fictional society we had a hero come from. They all come up inferior to our own earth-based society (at least in USA). And now we've also seen at least Jor-El, Zor-El, and Allura as evil at some point. Not sure about Lara. Not happy about that, either.

    Batman's misery back-projected. Year one, of course, worked with this. And post-crisis greatly increased the rift/issues between Dick and Bruce, but had Bruce 99% responsible, instead of the more nuanced and understandable (though still at fault) way of pre-crisis. And had him doing a great disservice with the way that he took Jason in, post-crisis. And resetting him to basically have no respect for his JL colleagues. And it's just continued and gotten worse and worse (with some pleasant intermissions where I thought improvement was happening), and he's become an abusive father. And someone people shouldn't actually want to work with.

    Barbara being Gordon's niece. I still cannot see any value to changing that relationship. At all. And then at one point, at least, it looked like he actually was her biological father. So he didn't just cheat on his pregnant wife, he also slept with his brother's wife/fiancee/girlfriend (can't quite remember what the relationship was). Well, that's admirable fellow, hmmm? And did his brother know? Did Jim? I think I have read the story, but so long ago, I don't remember details. Because if he let his brother think that was his child when it wasn't, then even worse.

    Barbara as a protege of Bruce's. I like most of Dixon's Bat-family work (have not read his actual Batman), but do not like Batgirl Year One. I hated making her an idiot with the rope. I don't like Post-Crisis de-aging her (even more of an issue in Nu52). I hate the power imbalance where Batman and Robin knew her identity and she didn't know theirs. I liked old school where she was a peer rather than protege of Batman, learned on her own, and learned their identities when they learned hers (despite a brief memory erasure).

    Dick cheating on Kori with Barbara. I hate the direction Dick took as a character, anyway (liked him much better earlier). But back-projecting it into the past was even worse. That was completely out of character for him to have done in that era.

    Identity Crisis. I'm a big Ralph & Sue fan (well before they made him a joke and her derisive towards him). I hate bringing characters back only to make them evil or dead (hi Jean). I loathe retcons that make good guys more immoral (hi League). And it was used as justification of Bruce in Tower of Babel, which I also don't like.

    Well, that's my starter list. What's yours?
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-21-2019 at 07:21 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Roy being a child and kicked out of house and made homeless for drug addiction. Which again ties in to the continuing jerkification of Olllie.
    That's not really a retcon, didn't it happen like this in the original story?

  3. #3
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    That's not really a retcon, didn't it happen like this in the original story?
    Roy was already an adult in the original story. I can't recall if he had his own place, but he certainly wasn't living with Ollie anymore in some of the earlier issues. The same goes for the road trip. It the continuing making-Ollie-worse trend, he is sometimes written as abandoning a child in his care (I think, not positive). When it actually happened, Roy was already an adult.

    Really, it was originally written as a "very special issue" that had no impact (Roy was also in Teen Titans at the time, and it wasn't mentioned). A couple years later (don't recall exact timing), it got properly explored. Roy still had issues with Ollie, and Ollie seemed surprised by that.

    My point is, Ollie;s reaction was bad enough already, but then they made Roy a minor to make it worse.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-20-2019 at 07:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Black Canary is Black Canary's daughter.
    I laughed so hard at this because this used to confuse me so much XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Roy being a child and kicked out of house and made homeless for drug addiction. Which again ties in to the continuing jerkification of Olllie.
    I take it Ollie wasn't a jerk in his original appearances then. That's kinda like his popular portrayal now especially regarding Roy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Diana is Zeus' child. This is one not major to me, just a minor, niggling annoyance. For a character whose start was about women, a female society, female accomplishment, etc. it is extremely frustrating to have her power (a defining characteristic) come from the male parent. Likewise, it frustrates me when the society is rewritten as "bad." I don't Hercules (half-brother because of Zeus) as a good guy, friendly with Diana. That really doesn't work for me at all, given the golden age setup.
    Same. I don't understand about the Hercules part though. I don't know how Hercules is portrayed in Golden Age. In the Post Crisis he became a good guy after years of torment. In Silver Age, he's a good guy that gave Diana his strength. Was that what you're talking about? in New 52 he was trapped under the ocean after sealing one of his enemies and went insane. I don't know about Rebirth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Krypton is a pretty unpleasant place. Making the society less admirable would not so much have been an issue, except somewhere along the way, they did this with pretty much every fictional society we had a hero come from. They all come up inferior to our own earth-based society (at least in USA). And now we've also seen at least Jor-El, Zor-El, and Allura as evil at some point. Not sure about Lara. Not happy about that, either.
    What's your take on the Phantom Zone? Because it's been implied as pretty problematic but I don't know how it was originally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Barbara being Gordon's niece. I still cannot see any value to changing that relationship. At all. And then at one point, at least, it looked like he actually was her biological father. So he didn't just cheat on his pregnant wife, he also slept with his brother's wife/fiancee/girlfriend (can't quite remember what the relationship was). Well, that's admirable fellow, hmmm? And did his brother know? Did Jim? I think I have read the story, but so long ago, I don't remember details. Because if he let his brother think that was his child when it wasn't, then even worse.
    This one's been retconned back. He's his daughter now. Though I guess you just write everything.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-20-2019 at 07:36 AM.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Barry's dead mom. Absolutely hate it!
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  6. #6
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Barry's dead mom. Absolutely hate it!
    I don't like that one, either. Also didn't like Wally's bad parents. You know, I once tried to do a list of heroes that grew up with their own two parents that were good. I could only come up with three entries - Barry, Wally, and Jaime. Crisis took Wally away, then New52 took Barry. And I haven't read New52 Jaime, so I'm not sure about him. I did hear he ran away from home or something? Too depressing, since I loved the first 25 issues of 2006 Blue Beetle and how he immediately told his family and such. I agree everyone shouldn't have happy families, but now it's like no one can.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't like that one, either. Also didn't like Wally's bad parents. You know, I once tried to do a list of heroes that grew up with their own two parents that were good. I could only come up with three entries - Barry, Wally, and Jaime. Crisis took Wally away, then New52 took Barry. And I haven't read New52 Jaime, so I'm not sure about him. I did hear he ran away from home or something? Too depressing, since I loved the first 25 issues of 2006 Blue Beetle and how he immediately told his family and such. I agree everyone shouldn't have happy families, but now it's like no one can.
    New 52 Tim also has good parents, but in exchange, it was Tim that they made egoistic until he grew up. Speaking of, the retcon I hate is New 52 Tim's back story. Though I understand it's probably done to fit in the 5 years 52 Robins timeline, that doesn't make it pleasant.

  8. #8
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Same. I don't understand about the Hercules part though. I don't know how Hercules is portrayed in Golden Age. In the Post Crisis he became a good guy after years of torment. In Silver Age, he's a good guy that gave Diana his strength. Was that what you're talking about?
    Hercules tricked Hippolyta out of her magic girdle and enslaved the amazons before they went to paradise island. It was in Diana's debut issue - All-Star Comics #8.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Hercules tricked Hippolyta out of her magic girdle and enslaved the amazons before they went to paradise island. It was in Diana's debut issue - All-Star Comics #8.
    No, I know that. I mean which version of Hercules becoming a good guy that you're talking about?

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    No, I know that. I mean which version of Hercules becoming a good guy that you're talking about?
    I was actually referring to the Rebirth version. I'm not keen on Hercules being a good guy at all, but Diana and Herc talking about Zeus' lack of parenting and such really isn't my thing. I may be misremembering, though.

    Speaking of, the retcon I hate is New 52 Tim's back story. Though I understand it's probably done to fit in the 5 years 52 Robins timeline, that doesn't make it pleasant.
    I think everyone I've spoken to does. And I'm not even sure how much of 52 history is still canon for Tim these days, to be honest.

  11. #11
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Black Canary is Black Canary's daughter. And half Ollie's age. Ooh, I hated this one with a fiery passion. I really did enjoy her storyline about her widowhood and dealing with that loss in the bronze age. And I liked bronze age Ollie and Dinah (except for one writer, mostly). They already made it kinda icky with the age gap and him crushing on her mom (IIRC), and then it just went down the tubes as (IMO), Ollie's character was ruined.
    FWIW, Ollie was only in his late twenties during the Bronze Age.
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  12. #12
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    FWIW, Ollie was only in his late twenties during the Bronze Age.
    Not so much the Bronze age that's the problem, though it still erases the widow-hood story, which I liked (with Larry really being a good man and really being dead). And yes "half his age" may be an exaggeration (can't recall exact ages post-crisis), but it still annoyed me. What specific issue retconned her to daughter, anyway? I know I've seen it, but don't remember.

    Also, I could toss in Selina-is-23-and-Dick-is-21-and-Bruce-is-31. Except it didn't really last, since they reinstated some history. Bruce and Selina need to be peers to me. Maybe four years difference (either way), max. This, for me, is I like the GA setup where they met around the time Dick became Robin, and Dick became Robin no more than thee years after Bruce became Batman (I prefer one year, because of real-world timing) and Bruce became Batman at 25 (15 years after his parents died when he was 10). And I'd prefer Selina being at least 24 (definitely at least 22) when she meets him so she can't be in anyway qualified as a kid (though that's using more modern perceptions of early 20s, I admit). Of course, I have also considered the age was lie in the first place. But I guess we don't really have an idea on her original age? But definitely not a peer of Dick's.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-20-2019 at 05:42 PM.

  13. #13
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not so much the Bronze age that's the problem, though it still erases the widow-hood story, which I liked (with Larry really being a good man and really being dead). And yes "half his age" may be an exaggeration (can't recall exact ages post-crisis), but it still annoyed me. What specific issue retconned her to daughter, anyway? I know I've seen it, but don't remember.
    Oh, the retcon was the worst pre-COIE that I can think of. Of course, having Dinah look twenty-something in the first place when she was middle-aged was kind of stupid, too.
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  14. #14
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Dinah look twenty-something in the first place when she was middle-aged was kind of stupid, too.
    Yeah, but that applies to several members of the of the Justice Society at that time. I also don't remember when Ollie's age was established, how old he was supposed to be when he got custody of Roy, etc. And the soft reboot of him 1969 really didn't help, since his past and present selves weren't as connected as they could have been.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not so much the Bronze age that's the problem, though it still erases the widow-hood story, which I liked (with Larry really being a good man and really being dead). And yes "half his age" may be an exaggeration (can't recall exact ages post-crisis), but it still annoyed me. What specific issue retconned her to daughter, anyway? I know I've seen it, but don't remember.

    Also, I could toss in Selina-is-23-and-Dick-is-21-and-Bruce-is-31. Except it didn't really last, since they reinstated some history. Bruce and Selina need to be peers to me. Maybe four years difference (either way), max. This, for me, is I like the GA setup where they met around the time Dick became Robin, and Dick became Robin no more than thee years after Bruce became Batman (I prefer one year, because of real-world timing) and Bruce became Batman at 25 (15 years after his parents died when he was 10). And I'd prefer Selina being at least 24 (definitely at least 22) when she meets him so she can't be in anyway qualified as a kid (though that's using more modern perceptions of early 20s, I admit). Of course, I have also considered the age was lie in the first place. But I guess we don't really have an idea on her original age? But definitely not a peer of Dick's.
    I didn't catch Selina's age during New 52, but I caught Wonder Woman. She's 23 too, and Clark's 25, with Dick being 21 it's just so wrong. Especially since both Diana and Clark do act that age.

    Dick is already really mature in the way he acts side by side with Bruce that even when Bruce is 31, he sounds like a peer, and Bruce does treat him like a peer, barring one or two moments when he went to dad mode.

    I got the feeling, while I was reading New 52, that this is why Dick is made to stay as far away from Clark and Diana as possible, and now I found out about it, Selina. He acts and sounds like their peer.

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